Are Muslims okay with Muhammed actions?

[famdigy]

You are right, he probably didn’t lover her. More like ‘lust her’ would be more appropriate.

I find this bashing a child to protect a 50+ year old pediphile getting ridiculous. First the excuse she was a liar, but so was Muhammed. The Quran and hadiths state that quite often and even Allah is ‘the great deceiver’. And secondly, she is just a tool and Muhammed used to protect himself.

Actually, there is nothing to lust about her, Aisha in my opinion was an ugly duckling so to speak, she was a dark ethiopian as her father was. Nothing against ethiopians, I’m one myself but really there is nothing to lust about Aisha, The prophet had married much more beautiful women than her, again, he was not motivated by beauty, if you took the time to look into the women he married, you would find he married the old, the young, the beautiful, the widowed, and the ugly. If Lust was what he was after, he would have only married beautiful youthful women but that was not the case. Please, don’t change the topic, if you want to speak about deception then open a separate thread and i’ll engage.

 

[famdigy]

Problem with this claim is that God revealed to us in Jesus, who was persecuted unto death, that the use of violence to ‘defend’ Him is not a Holy Will of God.

empurpledsoul, I appreciate your reply, but self-defense is a basic human right. If someone broke into your home and threatened your wife and children, would you stand by and not do anything because it is not God’s holy will? ofcourse not, your responsible for your family’s safety.

This is the case with Islam, the prophet (s) and the new religion were threatened from all sides, they were few in number and vulnerable. The prophet (s) had a duty to protect the new faith and it’s followers.

 

[Agabriel]

How can anyone call Muhammed’s wars defensive? When he went, or sent out his followers without him, to attack caravans that were not heavily armed and had women and children along - that is not a defensive battle. Those were battles to take loot and slaves. Or when he broke cease fire, or peace treaties, because he knew that by breaking it he could easily overrun the people because they wouldn’t suspect that he would break such a thing and they wouldn’t be prepared. Or when he would attack cities that were not known for armies and being heavily armed, but were known for being cities for trading and commerce.

He would have orchards burned just to destroy. He had at least one man that we know of tortured just to make sure he got all his loot. He would burn people alive. He would behead all the men, and even boys if they ‘had hair’.

All his actions are followed to this day by Muslims. They attack places where women and children are at (schools, pizza parlors, stores, unarmed civilians, etc), and they torture people and that includes burning them, cutting them, and basically doing anything to them just to strike terror into people.

But, Muslims have called wars defensive in order to make it sound like what Muhammed did was justifiable. War in Islam is the ‘opening up the world to Islam’, it really has nothing to do with defense. It is all a part of Jihad that is taught in the Quran and hadiths.

Muslims twist words… only Muslims are innocent, only Muslims are victims, only Muslims are persecuted, only Muslims are… oh I don’t know - insert any word in that makes a Muslim sound like they are the victim or righteous or morally superior. And so they are let off the hook of behaving in a proper way - all they do is repeat and repeat these things and then they think people will be fooled. For many it isn’t working anymore. Your actions, or lack thereof, speak louder than words.

 

[famdigy]

First the excuse she was a liar

You’re not being rational here, this is not an excuse but a fact, both sunnis and shias accept that Aisha lied to the prophet in at least 2 occasions. The first one is the incident of the honey
look it up here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Story_of_the_honey

Again, it is a reasonable question to ask, if she had the courage to conspire and lie to the prophet (s) which is a major sin by the way, how can we be sure she is truthful with us common folk?

 

[Benjamin8o8]

How can anyone call Muhammed’s wars defensive? When he went, or sent out his followers without him, to attack caravans that were not heavily armed and had women and children along - that is not a defensive battle. Those were battles to take loot and slaves. Or when he broke cease fire, or peace treaties, because he knew that by breaking it he could easily overrun the people because they wouldn’t suspect that he would break such a thing and they wouldn’t be prepared. Or when he would attack cities that were not known for armies and being heavily armed, but were known for being cities for trading and commerce.

He would have orchards burned just to destroy. He had at least one man that we know of tortured just to make sure he got all his loot. He would burn people alive. He would behead all the men, and even boys if they ‘had hair’.

All his actions are followed to this day by Muslims. They attack places where women and children are at (schools, pizza parlors, stores, unarmed civilians, etc), and they torture people and that includes burning them, cutting them, and basically doing anything to them just to strike terror into people.

But, Muslims have called wars defensive in order to make it sound like what Muhammed did was justifiable. War in Islam is the ‘opening up the world to Islam’, it really has nothing to do with defense. It is all a part of Jihad that is taught in the Quran and hadiths.

Muslims twist words… only Muslims are innocent, only Muslims are victims, only Muslims are persecuted, only Muslims are… oh I don’t know - insert any word in that makes a Muslim sound like they are the victim or righteous or morally superior. And so they are let off the hook of behaving in a proper way - all they do is repeat and repeat these things and then they think people will be fooled. For many it isn’t working anymore. Your actions, or lack thereof, speak louder than words.

I would find it highly appreciative if you provide evidence to prove the things you just said about Mohammed. If you do, I would love to hear meedos, Muslim Woman, and Sisters Amy reply. Or maybe this is why Sister amy didn`t want to engage into a debate about Mohammeds behavior because she knows whats coming. So if you could give reliable information it would be very helpful to all of us.

EDIT----

I also wanted to state you can take your time if you do decide to gather all of your information. No need to rush, I just want to learn more about this “man” named Mohammed. Wether from a non-Muslim or a Muslim source.

 

[Agabriel]

Actually, there is nothing to lust about her, Aisha in my opinion was an ugly duckling so to speak, she was a dark ethiopian as her father was. Nothing against ethiopians, I’m one myself but really there is nothing to lust about Aisha, The prophet had married much more beautiful women than her, again, he was not motivated by beauty, if you took the time to look into the women he married, you would find he married the old, the young, the beautiful, the widowed, and the ugly. If Lust was what he was after, he would have only married beautiful youthful women but that was not the case. Please, don’t change the topic, if you want to speak about deception then open a separate thread and i’ll engage.

You brought up the deception. Aisha lied. So did Muhammed. I actually don’t blame her for lying when she did lie. She could have been stoned to death and as it was due to her actions, or we are led to believe, women to this day are stoned to death if they don’t have witnesses to their rape.

As far as Aisha goes - I guess it doesn’t matter if you bash her because whatever Muhammed did you will defend to your last breath. She did not have the power, he did. And all accounts of Aisha point to her being a child of 9 years old and now you are trying to tell us that it wasn’t true because she lied about trying to save her skin in another instance.

Did she lie to him when he said he took off on some half donkey and half something else, I forget what? And she said he never left the room. Did she lie when she had to clean up his lice, or nasty sperm stains on his clothes?

I will say that you are giving creedence to ‘how can you trust a liar?’, but you don’t realize that your prophet was a liar too, and so is Allah according to your Quran. How can you trust them either? How can you trust Muslims when they are told to deceive us in our ‘lands of war’ (dar al harb)? Tell me.

 

[Agabriel]

I would find it highly appreciative if you provide evidence to prove the things you just said about Mohammed. If you do, I would love to hear meedos, Muslim Woman, and Sisters Amy reply. Or maybe this is why Sister amy didn`t want to engage into a debate about Mohammeds behavior because she knows whats coming. So if you could give reliable information it would be very helpful to all of us.

EDIT----

I also wanted to state you can take your time if you do decide to gather all of your information. No need to rush, I just want to learn more about this “man” named Mohammed. Wether from a non-Muslim or a Muslim source.

Do you want sources for Muhammed’s wars and raids against the caravans, or when he tortured someone for loot, or when he would have people burned, or their twisting of words?

Please be specific since most of the things about the wars are in numerous books and websites.

Most Muslims are unable to really defend Muhammed, or can stand us talking about him. It has only been in recent years that we have been able to do such a thing without being threatened with, or actually have been, killed for doing such a thing. It is just unheard of in the Muslim world. In fact, in our own Western countries people have died bringing up Muhammed, Islam and the Quran. Theo Van Gogh is one example of man who died while putting out a movie called, ‘Submission’. Hirsi Ali has to be guarded, and live in hiding. Mr. Spencer, Geert Wilders are a couple of people who also has to do the same. Father Botros has had a price put on his head calling for his death for speaking out.

 

[famdigy]

Do you want sources for Muhammed’s wars and raids against the caravans, or when he tortured someone for loot, or when he would have people burned, or their twisting of words?

Please be specific since most of the things about the wars are in numerous books and websites.

Since you are making the accusations Agabriel, let’s discuss one issue at a time. I believe Benjamin wanted answers to the allegation that Muhammad (s) tortured a group of 80 men who stole camels. I don’t have the references myself, even if I did have the english versions, I would need the origianl Arabic. If you know what the source of those allegations are, I’ll look them up and get back to you with an answer as promised.

 

[Agabriel]

Since you are making the accusations Agabriel, let’s discuss one issue at a time. I believe Benjamin wanted answers to the allegation that Muhammad (s) tortured a group of 80 men who stole camels. I don’t have the references myself, even if I did have the english versions, I would need the origianl Arabic. If you know what the source of those allegations are, I’ll look them up and get back to you with an answer as promised.

By the way, those are not ‘accusations’. They are gotten from the Quran and hadiths, and also from Tabari.

I didn’t get that from his response back to me. Since Muhammed tortured more often than in just that instance, and he warred and raided over 80 times in his life, I wasn’t sure what he wanted.

As for your original Arabic. There are 6 acceptable translations of the hadith and 5 acceptable translations of the Quran. I don’t go for this ‘original’ Arabic stuff from Muslims since they want to make up their own translation to suit their needs.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Do you want sources for Muhammed’s wars and raids against the caravans, or when he tortured someone for loot, or when he would have people burned, or their twisting of words?

Please be specific since most of the things about the wars are in numerous books and websites.

Most Muslims are unable to really defend Muhammed, or can stand us talking about him. It has only been in recent years that we have been able to do such a thing without being threatened with, or actually have been, killed for doing such a thing. It is just unheard of in the Muslim world. In fact, in our own Western countries people have died bringing up Muhammed, Islam and the Quran. Theo Van Gogh is one example of man who died while putting out a movie called, ‘Submission’. Hirsi Ali has to be guarded, and live in hiding. Mr. Spencer, Geert Wilders are a couple of people who also has to do the same. Father Botros has had a price put on his head calling for his death for speaking out.

I want all of it. The most notorious crimes commited by Mohammed I want it. I want to be able to learn more about him, so next time I see Muslim Woman trying to define Islam as peacful or anybody else for that matter I can be able to bring up these horrible things done by this man so they can see the truth face to face.

I remember a while back before I ever even decided to joing Catholic Forum there was a great discussion about Mohammed. There was one member who brought up nasty crimes commited by this false prophet. But when he was asked to provide realiable information or evidence he said he was going to I didnt get the chance to collect everything he had to share. It´s because I wasnt logged on and I didnt know how I was going to find the threat again. So if he did post I missed out. Muslim Woman was also on that forum, with no suprise she didnt try defend Mohammeds actions.

 

[Agabriel]

I want all of it. The most notorious crimes commited by Mohammed I want it. I want to be able to learn more about him, so next time I see Muslim Woman trying to define Islam as peacful or anybody else for that matter I can be able to bring up these horrible things done by this man so they can see the truth face to face.

I remember a while back before I ever even decided to joing Catholic Forum there was a great discussion about Mohammed. There was one member who brought up nasty crimes commited by this false prophet. But when he was asked to provide realiable information or evidence he said he was going to I didnt get the chance to collect everything he had to share. It´s because I wasnt logged on and I didnt know how I was going to find the threat again. So if he did post I missed out. Muslim Woman was also on that forum, with no suprise she didnt try defend Mohammeds actions.

Will this be enough for a start?

there are web articles from a former muslim here: answering-islam.org/Silas/index.htm

books: -‘Politically Incorrect guide to Islam’ and ‘The Sword of the Prophet, Islam’ (these books are similar
-The Truth About mohammed
-The Life and Religion of mohammed - this one can only be bought on the web, Muslims have successfully gotten it censored in a lot of places. It is an older book written in the early 20th Century (originally published in 1921)

This website is a little irreverent, but to be quite frank with you - it is the truth. historyofjihad.com/sitemap.html
There is also a book called, ‘The Legacy of Jihad’, which goes into much of what you can get for free on this website.

this goes more into the Quran vs the Bible
answering-islam.org/Muhammad/index.html

Even in the hadiths Muhammed wasn’t that peaceful in Mecca when he was starting up his preaching, the elders went to his uncle to ask him to stop his harassment. **Ishaq:119, Tabari VI:93, 95-96 **

Torture from the Quran, hadiths and Tabari

Quran 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides…their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”

Qur’an 48:27 “If the Muslims had not been there, We would have punished the unbelievers with a grievous torture.”

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Tabari VIII:122
Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, 'Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “Ali burnt some [former Muslims alive] and this news reached Ibn Abbas, who said, ‘Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, “Don’t punish with Allah’s Punishment.” No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, “If a Muslim discards his Islamic religion, kill him.”’”

Tabari IX:6 “The chief sheep tender sent out spies to obtain intelligence. But they came back with their joints dislocated. When he asked what had happened, they said, 'We saw white men on black horses. Before we could resist, we were struck as you see us now.”
Ishaq:595 “The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.’”

Ishaq:316 “Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive.”

Tabari VII:133
Ishaq:387 “When Muhammad saw Hamzah he said, ‘If Allah gives me victory over the Quraysh at any time, I shall mutilate thirty of their men!’ When the Muslims saw the rage of the Prophet they said, 'By Allah, if we are victorious over them, we shall mutilate them in a way which no Arab has ever mutilated anybody.”

Tabari VIII:96 “A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm’s daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm’s daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him.”

There is more, but this is a lot and by the time you get done with this you should be able to find the stuff on your own.
www.faithfreedom.org has a number of articles also. Many are written by other former muslims who talk about things in Islam. Of course, the Muslims don’t give them any creedence. go figure.

 

[famdigy]

By the way, those are not ‘accusations’. They are gotten from the Quran and hadiths, and also from Tabari.

Clearly you are ignorant of al-tabari’s work.

Tabari followed the classic methodology of early Islamic historians, a process which differed greatly from modern day historical writers. Islamic historians would simply compile all the known narrations about a certain event, regardless of how authentic or reliable each of those narrations were. They would copy the chains of transmitters into their books, in order that the scholars of Hadith could determine which narration was authentic/good and which was weak or even fabricated.

We find that History of Al-Tabari is simply a collection of narrations on certain events; some of these narrations are accurate, whereas others are not. The authenticity of each narration depends on the chain of transmitters: if the narration was transmitted by reliable narrators, then it would be accepted as valid, but if it was transmitted by unreliable people, then the narration was to be disregarded.

As such, we find that it is ignorant of the enemies of Islam that they assume that Muslims accept every narration in Al-Tabari as valid, when in fact this is not the case nor has any scholar ever accepted this–not even Imam Tabari himself.

Agabriel, you sound like an angry and bitter person, this doesn’t seem like it will be a productive discussion as you have already pre-judged Muhammad (s) and are not even willing to giving him a chance to tell his side of the story. As a christian I feel that you should give people an equal chance but your emotions seem to have gotten the better of you.

In Any case, I do challenge the lies you accuse Muhammad (s) of and will entertain any and all discussions on the subject. By the way answering-christianity.com has many of the rebuttals to answering-islam.

 

[josie_L]

Yes, you are right in that Muhammad (s) did not love Aisha, his marriage to her was not out of love but out of a divine order. As I mention earlier, this order could have been to protect the muslims from the plots of her father Abu Bakr, albeit temporarily and to put the Muslim nation through her, Aisha.

Firstly,

How was it a divine order?

Secondly,

Let’s pretend for a moment it was, how come Mohammed did not wait to consumate the marriage till she was at an age of understanding, and also, why couldn’t he have made believed he had consumated the marriage.

Thirdly,

Personally, speculation of this kind without anything to back it, is just that speculation.

P.S. Did Abu Bakr have other children?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

What could be so attractive in a bride who still has the form of a child.

Mother Aisha (ra ) was the third wife of the Prophet . May be , one reason for marrying Aisha (ra) to give her a chance to learn Islam from the messenger of God Almighty directly .

Among women , she described hadith most . Among both men & women , I think , she is the third . She was considered as one of the most learned person about Islam & after the death of the Prophet , companions learnt many things from her.

She never complaint against her married life. It’s hard to understand why today’s people are so worried about a happy , blessed couple.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

The most notorious crimes commited by Mohammed I want it.

No Prophet (peace be upon them all ) committed any major sin . If u want to read lies about the Last Prophet (pbuh) , u may visit answering Islam site.

. Muslim Woman was also on that forum, with no suprise she didn`t try defend Mohammeds actions.

there are thousands & thousands anti-Islamic posts . I can’t possibly read & answers all . Can u tell me which thread you are talking about ?

 

[Agabriel]

Clearly you are ignorant of al-tabari’s work.

Tabari followed the classic methodology of early Islamic historians, a process which differed greatly from modern day historical writers. Islamic historians would simply compile all the known narrations about a certain event, regardless of how authentic or reliable each of those narrations were. They would copy the chains of transmitters into their books, in order that the scholars of Hadith could determine which narration was authentic/good and which was weak or even fabricated.

We find that History of Al-Tabari is simply a collection of narrations on certain events; some of these narrations are accurate, whereas others are not. The authenticity of each narration depends on the chain of transmitters: if the narration was transmitted by reliable narrators, then it would be accepted as valid, but if it was transmitted by unreliable people, then the narration was to be disregarded.

As such, we find that it is ignorant of the enemies of Islam that they assume that Muslims accept every narration in Al-Tabari as valid, when in fact this is not the case nor has any scholar ever accepted this–not even Imam Tabari himself.

Agabriel, you sound like an angry and bitter person, this doesn’t seem like it will be a productive discussion as you have already pre-judged Muhammad (s) and are not even willing to giving him a chance to tell his side of the story. As a christian I feel that you should give people an equal chance but your emotions seem to have gotten the better of you.

In Any case, I do challenge the lies you accuse Muhammad (s) of and will entertain any and all discussions on the subject. By the way answering-christianity.com has many of the rebuttals to answering-islam.

So what about answering-Christianity, and Tabari!? Your own Quran and hadiths have most of the stuff that Muhammed did and said that we find questionable. And Tabari is an accepted source. The problem is that if you don’t like something then it isn’t accepted. If you like something then it is accepted.

As for angry and bitter - that is what is in your brain, my dear. Those are your labels that you imagine onto others. I am actually quite happy today. I am getting together what I need to go see my family and we are going to celebrate Easter together. It just rained, the air smells great, and the birds are singing. When you don’t like what you hear then start bashing the person.

Name calling is quite common when Muslims don’t like what they read and/or hear about their prophet. I don’t know how you get past your own Quran then!

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

… at least 2 occasions,

she lied about honey out of jealousy. This jealousy proves that how much she loved her husband. A point to think about who are claiming she was abused & unhappy in her married life.

anyway , what was the another event ?

her not being a virgin before marriage to the prophet.

Her engagement took place but it was broken as she reverted to Islam but the man remained as disbeliever. When she was married to the Prophet (pbuh) , she was a virgin .

 

[famdigy]

And Tabari is an accepted source. The problem is that if you don’t like something then it isn’t accepted. If you like something then it is accepted

you’re wrong Agabriel, al-tabari didn’t authenticate his narrations for the reasons I mentioned above, therefore if the narrator whom Al-Tabari recorded from is unreliable, then the story isn’t accepted, if you assume that we believe everything written in al-tabari then you are greatly mistaken.

The same goes for the hadiths, if the narrator is unreliable then it’s not accepted.
As for the Qur’an, you are simply misinterpreting the verses to suit your view

I haven’t called you any names, it just appears you are angry from your responses, i’m sorry if I’m mistaken.

 

[josie_L]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

Mother Aisha (ra ) was the third wife of the Prophet . May be , one reason for marrying Aisha (ra) to give her a chance to learn Islam from the messenger of God Almighty directly .

Among women , she described hadith most . Among both men & women , I think , she is the third . She was considered as one of the most learned person about Islam & after the death of the Prophet , companions learnt many things from her.

She never complaint against her married life. It’s hard to understand why today’s people are so worried about a happy , blessed couple.

Why didn’t Mohammed wait for Aisha to grow up before he married her?

P.S. They would have still been “a happy and blessed couple” if Mohammed had waited. Why the rush, especially since she was still playing with dolls and had a nurse?

 

[Agabriel]

Here is one thing that I will do for you, famdigy. Pray for you.

This week is Holy Week and tomorrow we celebrate Jesus’ Resurrection. He came for you too.