Are Orthodox considered protestants? If not, why not?

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Ironically, I suspect the average Catholic Bishop may in some ways have more autonomy than the average Orthodox bishop. Sadly, over the past century or two, we have seen the local primacies (metropolitan archbishops etc) reduced to pretty much empty ceremonial titles…with the Pope alone exercising real primacy. How does one bishop supervise 5000 other bishops?

One bishop in the state of New York allowed lay women preachers at Mass and other blatant abuses for decades. Who reigned him in? No one. Catholic bishops are very autonomous in practice. I bet an Orthodox bishop so openly violating canons would be bopped on the head by the local metropolitan/synod faster than you could blink.

Thankfully, we are gradually seeing a return to more true collegiality… with the rise of the national episcopal conferences after Vatican II and regular synods in Rome. Recently, Pope Francis also gave local metropolitans more “teeth” when it comes to investigating the corruption of local bishops.
 
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MockSock said:
Surely Orthodox were the first protestants.
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Not at all. The Orthodox and Catholics lack full communion but both Churches maintain apostolic succession and the sacraments.
MockSock said:
They rejected the filioque clause so rejected Catholic teaching.
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Eastern Catholics do not say the filioque when singing the Creed.
MockSock said:
I’m not an expert on the history and theology surrounding the whole thing and I’m quite ready to be corrected.
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Different theology and expression of the faith but the same faith.

ZP
 
The Orthodox Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Jesus Christ in A.D. 30. The Roman Catholic Church broke from the Orthodox Church in the early 2nd millennium and Protestantism broke from Roman Catholicism in the 16th century due to the work of Martin Luther and the other reformers. This is the Orthodox belief.
 
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YHWH_Christ said:
The Orthodox Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Jesus Christ in A.D. 30. The Roman Catholic Church broke from the Orthodox Church in the early 2nd millennium and Protestantism broke from Roman Catholicism in the 16th century due to the work of Martin Luther and the other reformers. This is the Orthodox belief.
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And a more honest reading of history, free of any bias or polemics, is that we broke communion with each other. Our separation, while painful, is distinct from the breakaway of the Protestant and Anglican communities. Those were rebellions, while our separation was not. Both sides were at fault.

I object to this phrasing as strongly as I object to the Catholic version of the claim: that the Orthodox broke from the Catholic church. I find both versions dishonest and a hindrance to reunion.
 
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MockSock said:
Surely Orthodox were the first protestants.
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There is more to being Protestant than simply “protesting”. Protestantism is a Western Christian movement, started as a break within the western, Latin-speaking Catholic Church in the 15th century. It’s theological concerns were distinctly western concerns.

The Orthodox are an Eastern branch of Christianity much older than Protestantism. Its roots go back to the cultural-linguistic split of the Roman Empire into Latin west and Greek east. Eastern Orthodoxy has a completely different theological orientation from Protestantism. There is a reason Eastern Orthodoxy never had a Protestant Reformation. Even to this day, where Protestants exist in Eastern Orthodox countries it is because it has been imported.

Going back to my earlier point, to be “Protestant” is not to be a “protester”. The first Protestants did not call themselves “protestants.” Luther and his followers called themselves “evangelicals”–literally of the evangel or the gospel. “Protestant” originally referred to a group of Lutheran princes in Germany who protested the Emperor’s attempt to limit their religious freedom. It was only later that it became a general term for the churches emerging out of the Reformation.The protest that Protestants are famous for was not against the Pope but against a secular authority.

As it stands, sola scriptura and sola fide are the hallmarks of Protestant theology. Last I check, Eastern Orthodoxy doesn’t advocate either one. Sure, we can say that “Protestant” simply means “non-Catholic” and include the Orthodox into that category but at that point the word becomes meaningless. Might as well simply say “Non-Catholic” lol.
 
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porthos11 said:
The Filioque or its absence is a non-issue
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I’m sure it is much more complex than just their rejection of the filioque. But if its a non-issue then why do we have it. We could get rid of it and unite the two churches. I’m sure whatever ancient political differences there were have been forgotten by now.
 
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HeDa said:
The Orthodox have valid Sacrament (called Mysteries) and that is including the priesthood.
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So attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy would fulfill my obligation? If I was in Greece for example and couldn’t find a Catholic church? (I’ve never been to Greece so I don’t know how many Catholic churches there are).
 
No. They’re schismatics from the Catholic perspective, sure, but I would challenge you to find a historian that defines the term ‘Protestant’ as “anybody who isn’t in communion with the Catholic Church.” It is a very specific historical term for groups that exist as a result of the Reformation, that hold to the solae (to different extents, anyway).
 
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If there is no Catholic Mass celebrated within reasonable distance, then we are not obliged to go to Mass. (Or as the Eastern Catholics say Divine Liturgy.) If there is an Orthodox church within distance we can freely choose to go there but not receive the Eucharist.

When I have visited Granny in Finland, I have never been able to go to Mass on Sundays as the there wasn’t a Catholic Mass celebrated in the Orthodox chapel (borrowed) that Sunday, the my parents car was needed for other purposes, the public transportation buses and trains to parishes in other towns arrived when Mass had ended or I would not be able to make it back the same day. When this has happened, I read the readings for the Sunday and prayed which is what priests recommend us to do in these cases. There is a small Orthodox chapel in Granny´s little town but there isn’t a Divine Liturgy there every Sunday. If is was, I would have gone there.
 
MockSock said:
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porthos11:
The Filioque or its absence is a non-issue
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I’m sure it is much more complex than just their rejection of the filioque. But if its a non-issue then why do we have it. We could get rid of it and unite the two churches. I’m sure whatever ancient political differences there were have been forgotten by now.
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Believe me, the Filioque is a non-issue. The Latins dropping it will not reunite the churches, and a reunification will include the Latins retaining it, and the Easterns omitting it just as it is done today. This is not the issue preventing reunification, far from it.
 
MockSock said:
Surely Orthodox were the first protestants. They rejected the filioque clause so rejected Catholic teaching. I’m not an expert on the history and theology surrounding the whole thing and I’m quite ready to be corrected.
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Actually, many Orthodox regard us as being “the first protestants”.
 
In a good World there would be no moscow. Constantinople split if the Byzantines where around .

Speaking the advantage no not having a pope was that eastern chirstianity never had the philophoser priest argument
That catholisim and Islam had
 
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The Orthodox Church wanted to make Constantinople the center of the church, but it is all Moslem now. Rome is still Catholic.
 
It was the only one left , since Jerusalem Alexandria , and Antioch where gone also the catholics are one of the reason why they got conquered as the sack of Constantinople by 1204 effectively killed it becoming a rump state for 200 years
 
@ltwin

Happy 10th Anniversary with CAF, Itwin! Many of God’s blessings to you! You’ve contributed much to our discussions! 🎈
 
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