Are our bodies like prison cells?

[Robert_Sock]

Sin does not reside in our bodies.

You could examine me from my skulldome to my toe tips and hands, and although I am a sinner, you would not find my sins in the physical me. They reside in my mind and affections.

If sin resided in our bodies, how could our SOUL justly be required to do Purgatory for the fault of the BODY? The natural Body never sees Purgatory. Purgatory is just precisely because sin does NOT reside in the Body!

And we are not “prisoners” in the “lower world”. As human beings, it is where we need to be. As well speak of a fish being a “prisoner” of the ocean!

ICXC NIKA

The body cannot be evil in any respect because it is created by God. It doesn’t “allow” because it doesn’t know what it is doing. A knife is not evil if it is used to kill someone. Jesus told us clearly that evil comes from **within **a person - not a thing.

Nor did He imply that we live in a “lower world”:

“Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.”

Nowhere am I saying that sin resides in the body, but without the body, the soul would not experience much of the sin that it does. The body is the medium that allows worldly sin to stain the soul. The body is also the medium that forces the soul to spend this life in the lower world. (Lower world because it is physical; as distinguished from the spiritual worlds that comprise, for example, the souls in Heaven)

 

[Darryl1958]

Nowhere am I saying that sin resides in the body, but without the body, the soul would not experience much of the sin that it does. The body is the medium that allows worldly sin to stain the soul. The body is also the medium that forces the soul to spend this life in the lower world. (Lower world because it is physical; as distinguished from the spiritual worlds that comprise, for example, the souls in Heaven)

Without the body, the soul would not experience much of anything. The body is what allows experience itself to be tangible.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

God created us as Persons, not as bodies and not as souls. Therefore our bodies are not " prison cells. " Those types of expressions are hyperbole by mystics or the frustrated yearning for a perfection and freedom beyond the limitations of our created station. We always think the grass is greener on the other side of the fense. Remember that the Angles survived a test far, far beyond any we will ever have to endure. And remember, we might have been created as dumb animals or even not created at all.

Linus2nd

 

[christofirst]

God created us as Persons, not as bodies and not as souls. Therefore our bodies are not " prison cells. " Those types of expressions are hyperbole by mystics or the frustrated yearning for a perfection and freedom beyond the limitations of our created station. We always think the grass is greener on the other side of the fense. Remember that the Angles survived a test far, far beyond any we will ever have to endure. And remember, we might have been created as dumb animals or even not created at all.

Linus2nd

Logical, but little comfort to anyone enduring great pain and suffering.

 

[Darryl1958]

Logical, but little comfort to anyone enduring great pain and suffering.

Likewise, the more ephemeral ideal of the eternal aspects of the disembodied soul is of little comfort to those enduring the diseases of the soul,such as the great mental anguish of depression or schitzophrenia.

Suffering, like morality itself, is much more a quality of the mind and the soul, than it is of the body.

 

[mytruepower2]

Non sequitur. We cannot be saints unless we have a positive belief in the value of our actions in this world.

No, it wasn’t a non sequitur. I was putting forth the accepted meanings of the terms that you used, and pointing out that you are switching terms around, in order to modify your claim. If you want to make a claim of this type, you must do so with properly-defined terms. Repeating the last equivocation you used is not necessary or helpful in assisting others with understanding -precisely- what you meant to say.

Are you, in fact, referring to a lack of faith in God, or are you referring to pessimism? Which is it? Define your terms.

**You have not explained why a person who believes this life is a prison is not in a mental prison. Such a negative belief does not inspire but is enough to depress and dishearten anyone. It implies that we are all guilty of serious crimes and should regard one another as malefactors.

On the contrary, a person can be thrown into prison wrongfully, and so, not be guilty of anything, just because he’s in prison.

That said, we -are- all guilty of serious crimes, and we should regard -ourselves- as malefactors in need of mercy and redemption. Remember the lesson of the pharisee and the tax collector. The evildoer went home justified, because unlike the pharisee, he made no attempt to boast before God. He remembered his proper relationship to God; that he was a poor sinner, who had nothing to offer God, and needed God’s mercy desperately. If the pharisee had only seen himself in the same way, he would have been a holy man indeed.

As for proving that viewing this life as a prison is not a mental prison, this can only be done once you properly-define the terms “prison” and “mental prison” as you think they should be used in the proof. However, I will instead be using the definitions as -commonly,- and non-equivocally used.

Prison: A place in which people are legally held as a punishment for crimes they have committed or while awaiting trial.

I’ve already given a list of the many punishments visited upon man as a result of the crimes of Adam, and that, combined with our inability to escape from these punishments, establishes that this life indeed “holds” us, according to the law of God, (therefore “legally.”) We also await the final judgment (“trial.”)

The only reason for thinking that this life is not a prison depends on how you define “life.” However, this isn’t the point. The point is; is viewing the world in this way a “mental prison?”

By definition, a mental prison is a place in which one is held, which is purely mental in nature. However, unlike physical prisons, mental prisons are almost always self-inflicted, since another person is only rarely able to trap you in your own mentality.

An example, for instance, of a mental prison would be an irrational commitment to a universal conspiracy. You believe this false thing about the world, and it warps all of your other perceptions, so that you’re trapped, in essence, by your own thoughts, but not because of any external facts that are non-mental, in support of your view. So, my conclusion is that…

Mental Prison: A purely mental thought process in which one traps oneself, which manifests as a firm, fixed, false belief, that is not open to reason or evidence; a delusion.

Now, you asked me to explain “why a person who believes this life is a prison is not in a mental prison.” Notice how meager my response needs to be. If there is -anyone, anywhere- who believes this life is a prison, and is not delusional, then my case is vindicated, since the explanation I was asked to provide was merely that these two things are not -necessarily- connected.

Fortunately, I have personal evidence to this effect. As a teenager, I believed this life to be a prison, and yet, as a young adult, I encountered evidence which proved this to be false. I immediately accepted the evidence, and altered my views accordingly. This proves that I was, in fact, open to evidence, and therefore, not delusional, nor in a “mental prison.”

Therefore, since persons can believe this false thing about the world without being “trapped” in the belief, and for reasons other than a self-imposed mental block, I think it’s incorrect to say that -the belief that this life is a prison- is necessarily concurrent with -a mental prison.- There’s your proof.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Why do so many saints suggest otherwise. I do believe that the body is in part good and admirable, but I also see it as partly evil and despicable. Like this world, the body is both good and evil. I wonder what our Catholic brothers and sisters who suffer through incurable, agonizing cancer or horrible panic attacks would say about this?

The question is, are you satisfied with the teaching authority of the Church? Because she says that the body is good and honorable.

It is sin that wreaks havoc on the body and causes problems. I have not seen writings from a saint that say otherwise. Because God can’t create something evil–all of creation is “good”. I recommend St. Augustine on this subject, because as he became Catholic he had to reject his previously held Platonic beliefs, including how matter is evil.

 

[GEddie]

Without the body, the soul would not experience much of anything. The body is what allows experience itself to be tangible.

Which is why, Scripturally, life is never separate from embodiedness. Your natural life required a natural human body. Everlasting life will require Resurrection and the pneumatikon soma.

ICXC NIKA

 

[tonyrey]

The question is, are you satisfied with the teaching authority of the Church? Because she says that the body is good and honorable.

It is sin that wreaks havoc on the body and causes problems. I have not seen writings from a saint that say otherwise. Because God can’t create something evil–all of creation is “good”. I recommend St. Augustine on this subject, because as he became Catholic he had to reject his previously held Platonic beliefs, including how matter is evil.

The body should not be deprecated but appreciated!

 

[dshix]

The question is, are you satisfied with the teaching authority of the Church? Because she says that the body is good and honorable.

It is sin that wreaks havoc on the body and causes problems. I have not seen writings from a saint that say otherwise. Because God can’t create something evil–all of creation is “good”. I recommend St. Augustine on this subject, because as he became Catholic he had to reject his previously held Platonic beliefs, including how matter is evil.

No, Robert is not satisfied with the teaching authority of the Church. He chooses, whenever possible, to make his own ideas and understanding of theology, instead of the view held by the Church Fathers, theologians, or in some cases, the Church itself.

He also prefers to use Jewish mysticism in many cases, even though we know that Jewish teaching is obsolete from our point of view.

So no, we can’t change his mind by citing Church teaching.

 

[tonyrey]

No, it wasn’t a non sequitur. I was putting forth the accepted meanings of the terms that you used, and pointing out that you are switching terms around, in order to modify your claim. If you want to make a claim of this type, you must do so with properly-defined terms. Repeating the last equivocation you used is not necessary or helpful in assisting others with understanding -precisely- what you meant to say.

Are you, in fact, referring to a lack of faith in God, or are you referring to pessimism? Which is it? Define your terms.

The non sequitur is the interpretation that “all pessimists go to Hell, or any such thing like that”.

On the contrary, a person can be thrown into prison wrongfully, and so, not be guilty of anything, just because he’s in prison.

That said, we -are- all guilty of serious crimes, and we should regard -ourselves- as malefactors in need of mercy and redemption.

What precisely are the “serious crimes” of which we are all guilty?

Remember the lesson of the pharisee and the tax collector. The evildoer went home justified, because unlike the pharisee, he made no attempt to boast before God. He remembered his proper relationship to God; that he was a poor sinner, who had nothing to offer God, and needed God’s mercy desperately. If the pharisee had only seen himself in the same way, he would have been a holy man indeed.

As for proving that viewing this life as a prison is not a mental prison, this can only be done once you properly-define the terms “prison” and “mental prison” as you think they should be used in the proof. However, I will instead be using the definitions as -commonly,- and non-equivocally used.

Prison: A place in which people are legally held as a punishment for crimes they have committed or while awaiting trial.

I’ve already given a list of the many punishments visited upon man as a result of the crimes of Adam, and that, combined with our inability to escape from these punishments, establishes that this life indeed “holds” us, according to the law of God, (therefore “legally.”) We also await the final judgment (“trial.”)

Your view is at odds with the teaching of the Catholic Church:

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of** a personal fault **in any of Adam’s descendants.

It is possible for a person - like Mary, the mother of Jesus - to be totally innocent.

The only reason for thinking that this life is not a prison depends on how you define “life.” However, this isn’t the point. The point is; is viewing the world in this way a “mental prison?”

By definition, a mental prison is a place in which one is held, which is purely mental in nature. However, unlike physical prisons, mental prisons are almost always self-inflicted, since another person is only rarely able to trap you in your own mentality.

An example, for instance, of a mental prison would be an irrational commitment to a universal conspiracy. You believe this false thing about the world, and it warps all of your other perceptions, so that you’re trapped, in essence, by your own thoughts, but not because of any external facts that are non-mental, in support of your view. So, my conclusion is that…

Mental Prison: A purely mental thought process in which one traps oneself, which manifests as a firm, fixed, false belief, that is not open to reason or evidence; a delusion.

Now, you asked me to explain “why a person who believes this life is a prison is not in a mental prison.” Notice how meager my response needs to be. If there is -anyone, anywhere- who believes this life is a prison, and is not delusional, then my case is vindicated, since the explanation I was asked to provide was merely that these two things are not -necessarily- connected.

Fortunately, I have personal evidence to this effect. As a teenager, I believed this life to be a prison, and yet, as a young adult, I encountered evidence which proved this to be false. I immediately accepted the evidence, and altered my views accordingly. This proves that I was, in fact, open to evidence, and therefore, not delusional, nor in a “mental prison.”

Therefore, since persons can believe this false thing about the world without being “trapped” in the belief, and for reasons other than a self-imposed mental block, I think it’s incorrect to say that -the belief that this life is a prison- is necessarily concurrent with -a mental prison.- There’s your proof.

It suffices to say that **while **you believed this life to be a prison you were in a mental prison - though no fault of your own.

 

[mytruepower2]

The non sequitur is the interpretation that “all pessimists go to Hell, or any such thing like that”.

Not when seen in its proper context. I was replying to a comment that you made, in which you said that “a positive attitude” (your exact words,) was needed to be saved. Taken literally, this -is- the view that only optimists are saved. The fact that you later tried to go back on that should not be blamed on me.

What precisely are the “serious crimes” of which we are all guilty?

“As it is written: There is not any man just. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. All have turned out of the way; they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good, there is not so much as one. No distinction is made: all have sinned and lack God’s glory”
Romans 3:10-12 & 23

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of** a personal fault **in any of Adam’s descendants.

I didn’t say it was a personal fault. I said it was a crime. It is.

It is possible for a person - like Mary, the mother of Jesus - to be totally innocent.

If you know philosophy, you know that you can’t reason by exceptions.

It suffices to say that **while **you believed this life to be a prison you were in a mental prison - though no fault of your own.

No, it doesn’t suffice to say that, because in saying that, you adopt a non-standard definition of “mental prison,” but without explaining what that definition is, or how it applies. It now falls to you to present good evidence that my definition is -wrong,- and to not only -explain your definition in full,- but prove that it’s -correct.- I, after all, did you the basic courtesy of doing this on behalf of -my- definition, so that you’d be able to understand my proof. Please do so for your definition now.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The question is, are you satisfied with the teaching authority of the Church? Because she says that the body is good and honorable.

It is sin that wreaks havoc on the body and causes problems. I have not seen writings from a saint that say otherwise. Because God can’t create something evil–all of creation is “good”. I recommend St. Augustine on this subject, because as he became Catholic he had to reject his previously held Platonic beliefs, including how matter is evil.

I’m with the many writers and saints who say that the body acts as a prison. As for the discrepancy with the church teaching, you would need to ask them. There can be no denying that the body is necessary for the soul to sin with worldly pleasures and that the body holds us down to this lower world of existence.

 

[tonyrey]

Nowhere am I saying that sin resides in the body, but without the body, the soul would not experience much of the sin that it does. The body is the medium that allows worldly sin to stain the soul. The body is also the medium that forces the soul to spend this life in the lower world. (Lower world because it is physical; as distinguished from the spiritual worlds that comprise, for example, the souls in Heaven)

Robert, I understand and sympathise with your view that the body is a prison cell because your panic attacks make you feel that you are - and sometimes may be - a helpless victim. But our feelings are often notoriously deceptive. For the most part you are not a prisoner because you can think clearly and reach your own conclusions. Your mind is not chained and no one can chain it. We are only prisoners when we have negative thoughts and don’t make any effort to resist them. Sooner or later we are all in this predicament. It would be unnatural never to lack confidence and we can’t always be sure whether our lack of confidence is justified or not.

 

[tonyrey]

The non sequitur is the interpretation that “all pessimists go to Hell, or any such thing like that”.

Not when seen in its proper context. I was replying to a comment that you made, in which you said that “a positive attitude” (your exact words,) was needed to be saved. Taken literally, this -is- the view that only optimists are saved. The fact that you later tried to go back on that should not be blamed on me.My exact words were:
“We cannot be saints unless we have** a positive belief in the value of our actions **in this world. If we are merely waiting to die we are not following the example or teaching of Jesus.”

What precisely are the “serious crimes” of which we are all guilty?

“As it is written: There is not any man just. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. All have turned out of the way; they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good, there is not so much as one. No distinction is made: all have sinned and lack God’s glory”
Romans 3:10-12 & 23
That is a far cry from “serious crimes”.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.

I didn’t say it was a personal fault. I said it was a crime. It is.
You need to justify that assertion.

It is possible for a person - like Mary, the mother of Jesus - to be totally innocent.

If you know philosophy, you know that you can’t reason by exceptions.I know it is unreasonable to make sweeping statements when there are exceptions.

It suffices to say that while you believed this life to be a prison you were in a mental prison - though no fault of your own.

No, it doesn’t suffice to say that, because in saying that, you adopt a non-standard definition of “mental prison,” but without explaining what that definition is, or how it applies. It now falls to you to present good evidence that my definition is -wrong,- and to not only -explain your definition in full,- but prove that it’s -correct.- I, after all, did you the basic courtesy of doing this on behalf of -my- definition, so that you’d be able to understand my proof. Please do so for your definition now. You clearly stated “As a teenager, I believed this life to be a prison”, i.e. you inflicted arbitrary limits on your mental outlook.

 

[tonyrey]

Likewise, the more ephemeral ideal of the eternal aspects of the disembodied soul is of little comfort to those enduring the diseases of the soul,such as the great mental anguish of depression or schizophrenia.

Suffering, like morality itself, is much more a quality of the mind and the soul, than it is of the body.

One of the first lessons in self-hypnosis is to distinguish the physical sensation of pain from apprehension.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m with the many writers and saints who say that the body acts as a prison. As for the discrepancy with the church teaching, you would need to ask them. There can be no denying that the body is necessary for the soul to sin with worldly pleasures and that the body holds us down to this lower world of existence.

The deadliest sins are not related to physical pleasure but are intellectual: pride, vanity and the lust for power - and they outlast life in this world.

 

[GEddie]

The deadliest sins are not related to physical pleasure but are intellectual: pride, vanity and the lust for power - and they outlast life in this world.

 

[mytruepower2]

My exact words were:
“We cannot be saints unless we have** a positive belief in the value of our actions **in this world. If we are merely waiting to die we are not following the example or teaching of Jesus.”

No, your words were “a negative attitude to our life on earth.” Pessimism, in other words.

That is a far cry from “serious crimes”.

By whose estimation? Yours? Well, I hope, for your sake, that’s good enough, because from where I’m standing, any crime against God is “a serious crime.”

You need to justify that assertion.

A “crime” is a violation of authentic law. Insofar as original sin is a sin, it is in violation of God’s law. Therefore, even if human beings are not morally-culpable for it, nevertheless, original sin remains a crime, and one for which they will inevitably go to Hell, unless baptised and redeemed by God.

You clearly stated “As a teenager, I believed this life to be a prison”, i.e. you inflicted arbitrary limits on your mental outlook.

Nope. It was because I had received biased evidence up to that point. Nothing about my outlook was self-inflicted, and that was why, when new evidence arose, I was willing to believe it.

In any case, you -still- have not defined your terms, and I’m afraid I just don’t see this as polite anymore. Please define your terms now, if you want this discussion to continue.

 

[tonyrey]

No, your words were “a negative attitude to our life on earth.” Pessimism, in other words.

By whose estimation? Yours? Well, I hope, for your sake, that’s good enough, because from where I’m standing, any crime against God is “a serious crime.”

A “crime” is a violation of authentic law. Insofar as original sin is a sin, it is in violation of God’s law. Therefore, even if human beings are not morally-culpable for it, nevertheless, original sin remains a crime, and one for which they will inevitably go to Hell, unless baptised and redeemed by God.

Nope. It was because I had received biased evidence up to that point. Nothing about my outlook was self-inflicted, and that was why, when new evidence arose, I was willing to believe it.

In any case, you -still- have not defined your terms, and I’m afraid I just don’t see this as polite anymore. Please define your terms now, if you want this discussion to continue.

It is pointless attempting to have a rational discussion with anyone who believes:

“**even if human beings are not morally-culpable **for it, nevertheless, original sin remains a crime, and one for which they will inevitably go to Hell, unless baptised and redeemed by God.”