Are Some People Afraid Of The Latin Mass?

[I_Believe]

I agree with you. But you can’t sell TLM missals to those who are dead set and deeply biased against the TLM. Oh, sure, they will continue to say “The Mass is the Mass” but they’re only talking about THEIR Mass. It isn’t a fear of the Latin Mass that’s driving them away. They are only following the path of least resistance in their personal lifestyles.

True. Many are jaded.

In fairness, it’s not their fault though. They only know what they are taught.

And in truth, many of the ones that do take a harder look at what all the fuss is about, as you say, choose the easier road.

Then the neon Cafeteria sign starts flashing.

 

[LilyM]

The Church has embraced Latin. It has been the language of choice for a very long time. The Church accepted the Latin translation.

Now, I’m not studied in Greek and Latin, so I can’t say if there are errors in translation. But I feel confident that the Church has had enough time to identify any errors. We are not talking about translations into languages that were brand new. Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t Latin, Greek, and Aramaic all in use during Jerome’s time ? And had been for quite a while ?

The fact is, Catholicism was defined at Trent and the language used was Latin. It’s an ancient language and it has been the universal language used by those responsible for building faith and saving souls. It enabled all clergy to know Catholicism and when the Councils were held there was no confusion or misunderstanding of the revealed Truth, HMC’s Doctrine, or Her Dogmas. Latin was necessary to bring those of Apostolic Succession together and make them one. One group of clergy that understood the Faith and taught the same Faith back home.

Latin ensured they were all on the same page. And the Liturgy surely had to shed it’s regional novelties. At Trent, Holy Mother Church, by the Holy Spirit, bore Her most magnificent and fitting manner to express our Faith. Latin insured the Liturgy would be Catholic. Universal. Holy Mass would forever be prayed as to leave no questions, doubt, or confusion of what we as Catholics believe.

Now look where we are since we gave vernacular a try. Right back to Trent’s concerns. Rome is working on shedding the regional novelties and abuses.

And, just as at Trent, the solution is the Gregorian Rite. In Latin.

English (and other modern languages) isn’t a couple of steps up the ladder from Latin and Greek, it’s a couple of thousand years behind it.

Catholicism was defined at Trent? What an utter insult to 1,500 years of Catholicism that came before it and 500 years that has come since! What an utter insult to those Eastern Catholics who have NEVER worshipped at a TLM, and never will!

How many of our vital Catholic dogmas and beliefs did Trent define? Papal Infallibility? the Immaculate Conception? the Assumption? Transubstantiation (ok, maybe )? Mother of God? The Trinity? The Hypostatic Union and dual nature/single personhood of Christ? Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? Intercession of the Saints? The Canon of the Bible maybe? Don’t think so.

Heck, did it even deny the validity of 1,300 years of liturgical plurality as well as development (including linguistic development - some of the older liturgies are in Greek among other languages) that occurred before the Council?

No, it embraced that development, and that plurality, when it a) permitted those liturgies that were more than 200 years older than the TLM to continue and b) didn’t impose the TLM, or Latin, on Eastern Catholics.

Perhaps a bit of my background might help you to see where I’m coming from. My family are Croatian. Croatia for a good century or more prior to Vatican 2 had an indult to say Mass in a different liturgical language entirely - Old Church Slavonic. In fact it was FORBIDDEN to mix Latin into this Slavonic liturgy! Quite an extraordinary concession, and an even more extraordinary command accompanying it, to have come from Rome if Latin truly is the ne plus ultra!

 

[Jerry-Jet]

What if feared more–TLM or TLM translated into English?

 

[brotherhrolf]

What if feared more–TLM or TLM translated into English?

That was called 1965 through 1967 or so. It was the intent of the implementation of the 1965 Missal except that it wasn’t implemented that way in the US or Europe from what I can tell. Starting in 1965 just after the Council, we got announcements from the pulpit…“In two weeks we will no longer chant the Gloria in Latin. We will recite it in English” (Yes, the Gloria we recited then does not match the Gloria we recite today). And so it went. But at the same time, elements of the NO were being introduced such that by 1968 - my senior year at a Catholic boy’s high school, we had already implemented pretty much what would become the NO on the First Sunday of Advent in 1969.

 

[ProVobis]

What if feared more–TLM or TLM translated into English?

Or keeping the OF in Latin versions only.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Or keeping the OF in Latin versions only.

I understand that there is an OF in Latin in New Orleans. The only time in 40 years I’ve seen an OF in Latin has been on EWTN.

 

[ProVobis]

Catholicism was defined at Trent? What an utter insult to 1,500 years of Catholicism that came before it and 500 years that has come since! What an utter insult to those Eastern Catholics who have NEVER worshipped at a TLM, and never will!

Lily, you yourself have used canons of Trent to defend your position and I (and probably others) applaud you for that.

Trent (all 22 years of it) was a necessary response to the Reformations of Luther, King Henry VIII, and others who insulted the Catholic Faith. Eastern Catholics certainly weren’t the target; in fact Quo Primum preserved most of their liturgies as well.

We do owe Trent a lot in keeping alive the faith of Catholics not only during but many years after Trent. Yes, we all still smart from such “Catholic” actions such as selling of indulgences but Trent attempted to clarify indulgences and other doctinal matters in order to preserve some integrity. It had to.

 

[Sarabande]

I understand that there is an OF in Latin in New Orleans. The only time in 40 years I’ve seen an OF in Latin has been on EWTN.

We do a Latin OF every other weekend at our 11:00. Booklets are in Latin and English. Those that attend mass there often will “participate” in saying the Latin prayers and responses - as well as the chants. Those who are visitors (it’s our cathedral and we get a lot of visitors) will either participate if they are familiar or will follow along. Only about twice have I seen people storm out of the cathedral visibly perturbed when the priest began to say the mass in Latin. Other than that, whenever we’ve had friends or family attend mass there and it happens to be the Latin OF, they actually responded to it very well. Doesn’t mean that they would push for it their own parish, but they didn’t mind it.

 

[ProVobis]

I understand that there is an OF in Latin in New Orleans. The only time in 40 years I’ve seen an OF in Latin has been on EWTN.

It’s a shame, really. And it seems as if the Latin NO with the readings in vernacular would have been the best compromise with the traditional Mass and what Vatican II was all about, if indeed we needed a change at all. But it was never really marketed so it’s no wonder it’s so rare.

 

[LilyM]

Lily, you yourself have used canons of Trent to defend your position and I (and probably others) applaud you for that.

Trent (all 22 years of it) was a necessary response to the Reformations of Luther, King Henry VIII, and others who insulted the Catholic Faith. Eastern Catholics certainly weren’t the target; in fact Quo Primum preserved most of their liturgies as well.

We do owe Trent a lot in keeping alive the faith of Catholics not only during but many years after Trent. Yes, we all still smart from such “Catholic” actions such as selling of indulgences but Trent attempted to clarify indulgences and other doctinal matters in order to preserve some integrity. It had to.

It’s still a massive and unjustifiable leap from saying Trent was extremely important to saying Catholicism was defined at Trent.

Catholicism was defined at Jerusalem AND Nicea AND Chalcedon - and Hippo and Carthage, and Vatican I - not to metion in Ineffabilis Deus, Munificentissimus Deus, Summorum Pontificum - and even Humanae Vitae and Ordinatio Sacerdotalis!

 

[weepixie71]

i dont think modernists are at all afraid of the latin mass. they have nothing to fear. they arent loosing anything. as a matter of fact it appears from my perspective the cart leads the horse and they like it that way just fine.
it would seem to me… and i could be wrong… i often am… that people would do things in parishes before it was ok’d by the pope. just a few examples are:
receiving communion in the hand–i could not imagine taking Christ in my hand after wiping my sons or daughters nose or cleaning spit up from my baby. things a mom does without thinking twice about during mass
women not wearing head coverings
female servers
its like if enough of them do it… then they get their way.
like i said i know i get things confused at times, but i think the pope is supposed to give the ok and then the change takes place.

 

[I_Believe]

Catholicism was defined at Trent? What an utter insult to 1,500 years of Catholicism that came before it and 500 years that has come since! What an utter insult to those Eastern Catholics who have NEVER worshipped at a TLM, and never will!

How many of our vital Catholic dogmas and beliefs did Trent define? Papal Infallibility? the Immaculate Conception? the Assumption? Transubstantiation (ok, maybe )? Mother of God? The Trinity? The Hypostatic Union and dual nature/single personhood of Christ? Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? Intercession of the Saints? The Canon of the Bible maybe? Don’t think so.

Heck, did it even deny the validity of 1,300 years of liturgical plurality as well as development (including linguistic development - some of the older liturgies are in Greek among other languages) that occurred before the Council?

No, it embraced that development, and that plurality, when it a) permitted those liturgies that were more than 200 years older than the TLM to continue and b) didn’t impose the TLM, or Latin, on Eastern Catholics.

Perhaps a bit of my background might help you to see where I’m coming from. My family are Croatian. Croatia for a good century or more prior to Vatican 2 had an indult to say Mass in a different liturgical language entirely - Old Church Slavonic. In fact it was FORBIDDEN to mix Latin into this Slavonic liturgy! Quite an extraordinary concession, and an even more extraordinary command accompanying it, to have come from Rome if Latin truly is the ne plus ultra!

Council of Trent

The nineteenth ecumenical council opened at Trent on 13 December, 1545, and closed there on 4 December, 1563. **Its main object was the definitive determination of the doctrines of the Church **in answer to the heresies of the Protestants; a further object was the execution of a thorough reform of the inner life of the Church by removing the numerous abuses that had developed in it. newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm

 

[Seamus_L]

Again, I think it has little to do with language, but rather what we represent i,e The Church Militant and uncompromising, proud of it’s history and actively pursuing restoration. That, and not the “I don’t think I could ever learn Latin” argument is what scares some people.

 

[TBolt1000T]

I didn’t start regularly attending the TLM at my parish until recently, when I joined the Latin Mass choir. Once I started getting used to it, I could appreciate it almost as much as the reverent NO at my parish. My biggest problem with the TLM right now is that I don’t think that the layety can receive the Blood of Christ at Communion, so that’s why when I become eligible to receive this spring, God willing, that I’ll likely receive at the NO, although I’ll still be attending the TLM. I also don’t yet understand why there are all of the genuflections and such, but that’s part of getting used to the TLM. I like attending both, since they’re so different from each other.

Personally, I would be happy if the Pope mandated that every single parish have at least one TLM on Sundays. It could possibly make some of the liberal parishes more conservative, and perhaps there could be more reverence in the NO. The NO, if celebrated reverently, is great for converts who come from a Protestant background, like myself, but the TLM has the deep reverence that is missing from many NO Masses.

 

[Steve_Mooney]

I do not see this as an issue of fear as much an issue of relevance. Relatively few of the world’s people speak or understand Latin and the subset of those who do is shrinking. I d not see how a universal linguistic switch would clarify meaning for those participating in a liturgy. Rather, it would, to me, mystify the proceedings simply to placate a minority group’s aesthetic sensitivities. I might be wrong on this, but at a time of dwindling church participation, such linguistic exclusivity might further the exodus of many to more meaningful pursuits.

 

[gloriapatri]

My fear is not of the TLM itself, I think it would probably be very reverent, but of not knowing what to do when I get there. For instance, do I cover my head, do we have responses in Latin, etc.

I guess I’m afraid of doing something wrong and offending someone there.

At my former parish we had one Mass each Sunday in the N.O. in Latin. I loved it.

 

[Tinlin]

This “I don’t know latin so I don’t want to attend the Mass” is just another clever ruse to destroy orthodoxy and tradition. Orthodoxy-Hard to build up, very easy to destroy. Modernism/Heterodoxy- Easy to do, and self-perpetuates.

For example; stop emphasizing Latin: people stop learning latin: people stop teaching latin because they never learned it themselves; thereby making a return to latin difficult.

Again: desacralize the Priesthood: fewer boys want to become Priests: means less Priests: means even more innovations like EMHC, lay administrators of Parishes, etc.

The problem is not that “you don’t know Latin” the problem is that you were never taught the bare minimum you need to know to follow the liturgy. Do you know how little latin you need? Just one 30 hour course goes a long way. You can learn enough Latin to understand the Confiteor in just 3 chapters of Wheelock’s.

What do kids learn in school these days? Instead of Latin, they act out scenes from “A Streetcar Named Desire” or spend Religion Class talking about eastern spirituality like hinduism or buddhism.

Indeed, the problem is not the Mass; the problem is the system.

I believe that it is incumbent on Schools, Catechists, and Parish Priests is the duty that each Latin-Rite Catholic understands Latin to the best of their ability. For some this might mean learning the Ordinary (Gloria, Credo etc) and a few prayers (Pater, Ave, Gloria Patri) and their translations by rote; for others it might be Latin Classes in school.

Now I do sympathize with people who don’t know any Latin at present; namely adult converts or cradle catholics who just never learned; there might not be enough time in the week to learn Latin. This is a regrettable deficiency; not your own fault, and not necessarily correctable. But for the sake of our patrimony, encourage your children to take Latin.

 

[Candace_Alexis]

Hi
This is so interesting. We are new Catholics, my family and I, and history buffs. We were disappointed that the Greek and Latin had been deleted and felt the English liturgy a little “McDonald”. When I found a Latin Mass I was amazed at how much more beautiful and meaningful it was … and how “protestantized” the new mass then seemed. My daughter had an experience in Rome when they were lost. The priest they saw did not speak English but did speak Latin which her friend did also. They communicated in Latin. How beautiful it must have been when Catholics everywhere could communicate, at least on some level. This new business smacks too much of divide and conquer to me. Babylon revisited. I have always been interested in the experiences of the ancient and original Christians and learning their language has been exciting and illuminating. My father is Greek Orthodox. He gave me a Greek bible for Christmas … oh, boy … in Greek (with translations). I love it. I guess we are “orthodox” Catholics. : )

 

[LilyM]

IB, with the greatest possible respect to you and to the importance of Trent (which I wholeheartedly acknowledge) you’ve got the wrong end of the stick, it should be

Council of Trent

The nineteenth ecumenical council opened at Trent on 13 December, 1545, and closed there on 4 December, 1563. Its main object was the definitive determination of the doctrines of the Church in answer to the heresies of the Protestants; a further object was the execution of a thorough reform of the inner life of the Church by removing the numerous abuses that had developed in it. newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm

In other words it dealt only with those sectors of Catholic belief that were a bone of contention for Protestants. Not with all, not nearly all, Catholic doctrine.

That was a surprisingly limited area in those days. Hence it is heavy on the sacraments, for example, especially the Mass, and indulgences. But no mention from one end of the Council to the other of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity or the Trinity - at that stage most Protestants still accepted both doctrines, including Luther and Calvin.

Of course it didn’t determine (and doesn’t even mention) Papal Infallibility, the Assumption or the Immaculate Conception - three doctrines that are at the very heart of Catholicism - those weren’t ‘determined’ for 300+ years afterwards.

Neither did it ‘determine’ core doctrines such as the Trinity, the Canon of the Bible, the nature of Christ - those had been determined 1,000+ years earlier at Chalcedon, Nicea, Hippo and Carthage. It didn’t even mention, again, the non-contentious doctrines, no need.

 

[Jossy]

To me, it’s all about relevance. The Latin Mass just doesn’t connect. Sorry.

KingAlfred:

I would love to participate in a Latin Mass because I think Latin is a beautiful language and few times
our Missionary Priests said this during High Mass was and
still is beautiful to listen to.
When Latin is spoken during mass, I feel the presence of
Christ and it just feels so right.
I do not know why some people are afraid of the Latin mass.
People who have said that it is because of Latin mass that
they have left the church is not admitting that their faith in God
is not strong and their spirit is weak.
If God speaks to you during English Mass then its ok and if
he speaks to you during Latin Mass, its ok too but please
do not say you will not connect. Let God guide and lead you.
God Bless,
Josey