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Contarini
Guest
No. I think that someone capable of genuine friendship would not go to hell.
As Sartre said, “L’enfer, c’est les autres.” (Hell is other people.)
Edwin
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As Sartre said, “L’enfer, c’est les autres.” (Hell is other people.)
Edwin
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steve_b
Guest
There’s always reason to hope on this side of judgement for everyone…providing we persevere till the end, doing what Jesus commands of us. But look how many people don’t do that? That’s really the issue.
Here’s just 1 example how people don’t persevere in doing what Jesus commands
While this following scripture doesn’t mention
- Mass
- Sunday
- Eucharist
- Mortal sin for deliberately missing Mass
**
IOW, this is not a suggestion to do, but a command to do**
*Heb 10: (all emphasis mine)
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth,
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- there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
- 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment,
- and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
*
- 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God,
- and profaned the blood of the covenant
- by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
*
- 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
- deliberate Failure to meet is a sin with huge consequences
- “the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday
- They are celebrating the Eucharist
- what does the sacrifice for sin and the blood of the covenant have to do with them when they meet on “the Day” ? Jesus used those underlined words instituting the Eucharist. Matthew 26:28
- They are celebrating the Mass
- THAT’s why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,
- there no longer remains for Them a sacrifice for sin
- they Spurn the Son of God
- they outrage the spirit of grace
- a fearful prospect of judgement awaits them
- and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries
Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?
One only has to look at the consequences mentioned. Those consequences DESCRIBE HELL for one who dies in that sin
Some statistics:
- Before Vat II, 80% of Catholics faithfully attended Sunday Mass. Post Vat II, it’s 20%
That said,
If one confesses this sin in confession, but has no intention to change their practice of C&E mass attendance, they’ve made a mockery of the confessional and their sins for no mass attendance during the year, are NOT forgiven and they remain in mortal sin…
The CCC states 2178
As I said, I’m just giving 1 example but with HUGE consequences
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steve_b
Guest
and Sartre was an atheist who committed suicide
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TK421
Guest
It isn’t about what “most” Catholics - canonized saints being no exception - have believed in history. Canonized saints often believed and accepted what was accepted in their time and culture, unless it went against doctrine. The vast majority of saints in history - men and women - believed women were unfit to be bosses. It isn’t because they were sexist or narrow-minded or whatever other label some contemporary judgmental and vindictive secular people want to believe. It’s because that was their world and the mode of thought and modes of thoughts only change gradually from generation to generation.
So that fact that 95+% of canonized saints believed the vast majority are damned doesn’t really mean anything, because a canonized saint is a source for prayer, not a source for authority. It doesn’t mean they’re right and it doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
Thank you for the wonderful laugh!!! The Onion rulez!
There was Rev. John Furniss (what an appropriate name!) who wrote a book titled: “The sight of Hell”From the article: “I think it’s great that they’ve carved out such a strong community for themselves here,” added the horned beast of ceaseless death and destruction. “I’m all for it.””
Seriously, continuous torture or isolation is so dehumanized and distressing that it sends victims insane. Only in the fantasies of sadists do the victims not go insane so that they can continue to suffer. I’m surprised that adults would believe such fantasies, even sat around a camp fire telling tall stories on Halloween.
The approbation at the beginning:
Now let’s peek into it:
Dancing houses! Theaters! Horror of horrors!
Very likely? Merciful? No wonder that the church started to downplay the “fire and brimstone” message, and nowadays it is watered down to “separation from God”.
But in this existence we are separated from God. We do not see his face, we do not enjoy his touch, we cannot hear his voice. If this is how hell looks like, there is nothing to worry about.
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TK421
Guest
IMO
I don’t think you’re looking at canonized saints the way you ought, because saints traditionally believing that the vast, vast majority are damned isn’t in of itself a source of authority. Canonized saints were human beings who, generally speaking, believed whatever was accepted in their time and culture, as long as it didn’t go against doctrine. So even if 100% of canonized saints believed that 1 in 10 million people were saved and everybody else was damned, it would not be a source of Authority (capital A). Saints who have been canonized in the 20th century - such as St Mother Teresa and St JPII the Great - have shifted away from the view that almost everybody is damned. But, again, this isn’t authorative either, because this isn’t a subject that has been spoken on ex cathedra and I suspect it never would be, because the Church has no way of knowing this, and She would not want to lead people into the sin of presumption.
I also don’t think you’re looking at God’s mercy the way you ought, because it’s not “Well, if God shows X amount mercy, then lots of people will be saved, but if he only shows Y amount of mercy, then only a few people will be saved”. God’s mercy is inexhaustible. So, who is saved and who is damned comes down to either the acceptance or the rejection of grace. Divine mercy isn’t going to help in anyway whatsoever if a person doesn’t receive it. They will be damned. But God’s mercy is a constant: the Devil would be saved if he were contrite, though in the angel’s surpassing state of consciousness and knowledge, there is no such thing as changing one’s mind once it has been made. Like mankind, angels are person’s with rational souls, and 1 out of 3 of them fell from grace. That isn’t a majority, but it is still vast.
I don’t know if any of that was helpful for you. I hope it was. A) God’s mercy isn’t something you should ever dare to doubt, and B) The Catholic Church doesn’t exist in sport teams, where if X number believe something, then that makes it the winner.
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inocente
Guest
Those quotes are obscene.
That kind of hell is the invention of sadists. They know that in reality their torture victims would need sleep and food and rests to recover from injuries, and even then would soon die. So hell is a marvelous addition for their depraved fantasies - a limitless supply of victims who never need a rest and can never die. They can imagine torturing them for a trillion years, for a hundred trillion years, and that’s still no closer to an eternity of cruelty.
And then for kicks some used the fantasies to traumatize little children, pretending it helped them not to misbehave.
Grief, people can be weird. If you’re happy and you know it clap your hands.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
This is one of those questions the answer to which must be purely speculative.
So why bother?
It’s like asking how many universes there are.
Does it really matter?
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omgriley
Guest
It is perfectly acceptable to pray that Jesus allows you to suffer for the souls in purgatory, conversion of sinners, and other things.
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
Yes, they are.
What is even worse is the approbation. But the worst is the “silent” or not so silent agreement of apologists. Fortunately the “fire and brimstone” model of hell is going out of fashion these days. Such a book would be considered emotional abuse, and rightfully so.That kind of hell is the invention of sadists. They know that in reality their torture victims would need sleep and food and rests to recover from injuries, and even then would soon die. So hell is a marvelous addition for their depraved fantasies - a limitless supply of victims who never need a rest and can never die. They can imagine torturing them for a trillion years, for a hundred trillion years, and that’s still no closer to an eternity of cruelty.
And then for kicks some used the fantasies to traumatize little children, pretending it helped them not to misbehave.
Grief, people can be weird. If you’re happy and you know it clap your hands.
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steve_b
Guest
Ahhhh it’s a reasonable expectation that all will be saved comment?
Nice thought, really nice. And THEY might think it IS reasonable. However, how does that square with, Matthew and Luke quoting Jesus? #40
Emphasis on hope is a good thing.
All I’m saying, one doesn’t want to emphasize hope and ignore consequences for one’s actions
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
As we can see, souls in limbo weren’t damned. That’s why we say today, babies who are not baptized and die, we leave them up to the mercy of God.
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dnu
Guest
Unless one has been there, one cannot know.
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EveningSkye111
Guest
Great reply.
I used to post at a website for years. It had different forums ranging from Christianity to politics to games. One day, I was looking around in a “General” forum and read a post entitled:
“ARE YOU AFRAID OF DYING AND GOING TO HELL?”
A guy who regularly posted at the forums replied:
“I’M GOING TO TEAR HELL WIDE OPEN!”
I wanted to weep when reading that. As you wrote, too many people think that Hell is one magnificent place where you can keep on sinning for eternity. Party, party, babes, booze and “you know what.”
So why am I remembering all this now?
That very man died a few weeks ago.
= = =
I started a thread about the television show “Lucifer” when it first came out. I was totally appalled. Is it still on the idiot box?"
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steve_b
Guest
When Jesus said a few make it to heaven,
Luke 13:23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out.
And
Matthew 7:13-14 , The narrow gate
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
that’s comparing the number who will go to heaven to the total souls ever born.
So while it is a few souls comparatively speaking who go to heaven vs the total number of souls ever born, that number who make it to heaven, is still a multitude of souls in heaven.
Therefore, there is no contradiction between Luke & Matthew, and what John wrote
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bjames1728
Guest
What is the theological logic behind eternal physical torture? Does God will this to happen, or simply allow it? If God wills it, that is hard to understand in context of the parable of the good shepherd. Why would the loving God who ceaselessly seeks the lost then, at some critical point, declare them eternally lost and begin torturing them ceaselessly? If God doesn’t will it but does allow it, then are the tortures inflicted by other agents, the inhabitants of hell and God has no dominion there to stop it?
The quotes above about the little boy in hell are truly sick and very hard to reconcile with the person of Jesus. As a parent, I really can’t imagine a situation where I would wish this on my child, or even allow it to happen if I had any power at all to stop it.
The quotes above about the little boy in hell are truly sick and very hard to reconcile with the person of Jesus. As a parent, I really can’t imagine a situation where I would wish this on my child, or even allow it to happen if I had any power at all to stop it.
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omgriley
Guest
Good lord, that’s horrible.
Well, it isn’t physical until after the Last Day. Up until then it it would be spiritual.
Of course God does not will it. God will that all men be saved. Unfortunately, not all men want to be with happy with God.
God doesn’t “declare” them lost. At some point in our lives we must make a choice, and it must be either for God or against Him. That’s why we’re here, after all. God made us to be perfectly happy with Him in Heaven forever. But we can’t do that with Him unless we show Him that we actually want that for ourselves. If during our lives on earth we consider other lesser things to be more important to us than God, why would we suddenly change our minds after we die?
The immateriality of the soul and timelessness of the afterlife make it so that whatever choice we make at death (for God or against Him) is made immediately and irrevocably set. We cannot simply change our mind after we die and suddenly be sorry for sinning against God because change requires time, which is exactly what we will not have after death.
It’s comparable to wet clay being molded into a pot. While it’s wet, it can be molded into any shape you could think of. It can go in any direction. However, once the pot is placed into the furnace and hardens, nothing can change it. It is permanently molded in it’s shape and no amount of water can change it. So it is with the soul. On Earth in it’s bodily form, it can change and pick different things to be it’s ultimate good, but once it separates from the body, it is instantly and irrevocably habituated towards it’s perceived ultimate good.
Of course it sounds horrible and terrifying -it should be. It is terrifying. Pray for the conversion of sinners.
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omgriley
Guest
P.S., I missed where this was mentioned…?
The Church teaches that Hell is a permanent self-chosen exclusion from God. One would not be able to make such a choice without full knowledge and full consent of the will, something that children who have not attained to the age of reason cannot do.
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HabemusFrancis
Guest
I may have said it before, but Ill say it again.
I think one of the worst parts of Hell is in fact being there with your friends and family in life.
In stark contrast to the affection you felt for them on earth they will hate your guts, and any trace of warmth or love they have for you will be forever extinguished.
The only conversation you will have them if you can call it that will be hatred and contempt for you and your sins and utter anger, anguish for helping them get to Hell even if it was there fault as well as yours.
We see Hell and desperation mirrored in life. Take what happens to people who “lose everything” whether it is friendships, money or property. How do they react to their friends or family? If they aren’t religious (and yes… religion makes all the difference in the world especially in negative situations) then the often lash out at their family or remaining friends, telling them they hate and are angry with them, because there seems to be “no hope.”
Imagine how people react when hope has truly died?
I think one of the worst parts of Hell is in fact being there with your friends and family in life.
In stark contrast to the affection you felt for them on earth they will hate your guts, and any trace of warmth or love they have for you will be forever extinguished.
The only conversation you will have them if you can call it that will be hatred and contempt for you and your sins and utter anger, anguish for helping them get to Hell even if it was there fault as well as yours.
We see Hell and desperation mirrored in life. Take what happens to people who “lose everything” whether it is friendships, money or property. How do they react to their friends or family? If they aren’t religious (and yes… religion makes all the difference in the world especially in negative situations) then the often lash out at their family or remaining friends, telling them they hate and are angry with them, because there seems to be “no hope.”
Imagine how people react when hope has truly died?
Mary_Gail_36
New member
I think that the film, “what dreams may come” with Robin Williams and Annabella Sciorra had a interesting depiction of hell.
It was a dark isolated gloomy little house, where the woman condemned to it became so self interested that all she could focus on was her own suffering, and not see anything else.
I thought that was interesting, to be completely alone for ever. And very scary.
It was a dark isolated gloomy little house, where the woman condemned to it became so self interested that all she could focus on was her own suffering, and not see anything else.
I thought that was interesting, to be completely alone for ever. And very scary.
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