Are there any Catholic theologions that fully understand the last book of the bible ?

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spauline said:
This shouldn’t be. Physical death is not the issue. *Spiritual *death is. hence, with this sense, he fails to see that on a spiritual level
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Well done; this is well thought and written; it is true that we mislead are selves when we read revelation in a physical or material context. I think that the author of revelation was speaking purely of what is un-tangible; something going on in the spiritual world behind the physical domain of humanity. In other words, it is what is going on in the hearts of men that counts.

As for the beast, I see the “image” of the beast, as things or states of minds that are selfish and are opposed to the image of sacrifice; and that is the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ). Am I close to truth? What do you think?

However, if 666 doesn’t represent a specific man, then what does it mean in the spiritual sense? 🙂
 
In the language of gematra, 666 spells the full name of the Roman emperor
Nero according to Hebraic numerical value. The two beasts are probably
Nero and his successor Domitian. Antichrist is anyone who is opposed
to Christ. And we should keep in mind that emperor worship, false
deification, is a mark of antichrist. By referring to the two beasts, John
is warning the early Church of the imminent great Roman persecutions. :mad:
 
when it says it is the the number a man. The translation in general is messed up.

The underlying Greek in Rev 13:18 for
“for it is the number of a man” is anthropos which better translates "for it is the number of mankind.

And the we have John’s 6.66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

John 6:66 is the only 666 combination in the NT.

Conincidence?
 
walt2000 said:
You have to get your info out of Rev. only.
walt2000
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Well, that’s an untenable stipulation for a Christian theologian, helpful as it might possibly be from a historical/literary point of view. You can’t understand any book of the Bible theologically unless you understand it in the light of the whole Tradition.

Edwin
 
freesoulhope said:
Well done; this is well thought and written; it is true that we mislead are selves when we read revelation in a physical or material context. I think that the author of revelation was speaking purely of what is un-tangible; something going on in the spiritual world behind the physical domain of humanity. In other words, it is what is going on in the hearts of men that counts.

As for the beast, I see the “image” of the beast, as things or states of minds that are selfish and are opposed to the image of sacrifice; and that is the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ). Am I close to truth? What do you think?

However, if 666 doesn’t represent a specific man, then what does it mean in the spiritual sense? 🙂
Click to expand...
Oh, I think you are definitely close to what’s going on. Precisely: salvation history itself is a SPIRITUAL process. Ame to that.

And, yes, I would say the imagries of Revelation in the Dragon, Beast and false prophet are dealing in primary sense with a spiritual way of looking at things.

For just as God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, imaged in the completeness of “7”, so then “6” is great imperfection, that is, of man. Hence, 3 6’s means man makes God in his image, deifying himself, which is the essence of what is spoken of in Genesis in the beginning with the Serpent.

So there is the Father Almighty, the Son who is Incarnated, and the Word spoken between Them is the Holy Spirit. And, yes, the Word spoken by God is one of reckless gift, reception, abandonment, love, sacrifice.

So then there is the dragon, Satan, the Father of lies, the False Word, the word that says:

“God is lying, He does not speak the truth, and you will surely not die, for there a no consequences to sin, neither termporal nor spiritual. And ‘you will be like gods’, that is, you can be independent of God, His Love, His Help, His Grace, you can do everything on your own, and this mere material creation (the ‘fruit’) is all you need. You can forge a utopia utterly independent of God and any assistance or truth of his. You yourselves will be the arbiter and origin of truth, not God.”

And this very lie of Satan is repeatedly incarnated in human history through the great ages of sin, in which humanity repeatedly buys this lie and goes with it, making it a concrete (again, ‘incarnated’) reality in this world.

And again, the embodiment of this very lie that is shared between “father” (Satan) and his children of sin (‘the beast’) is in fact the metaphor in the “False Prophet”.

And for a big elaboration on this, you might read my article on this:

The Seven-Horned Lamb, the True Logos, and the Two-Horned Lamb, the False Logos

Also, we can see a certain sense in which the Seal of God is contrasted with the Mark of the Beast. And, again, I see it as spiritual. So that the Seal in its fullness is received by faithful Catholics in the “forehead”, that is, in the depths of their intellect. That is, they shall be “chaste” in regards to truth, which the forehead ponders in the mind. They “shall not be harmed” by the assault that is the Trumpets, progressive spiritual attacks on the very development of the Church’s doctrine, so that various ecclesiological classes arise in history arise as the results of progressive spiritual harms, culminating in utter depravity: the Mark of the Beast, an imprint on someone who will hear *nothing *of the Gospel, not the Trinity or Incarnation (Muslims), not the Pope (schismatics), not the general Bishops and Oral Tradition (heretics), not the Scriptures (the Enlightenment Deists and Rationalists), and finally, not even Reason itself, which is common to all humanity, if they will but seek to live in reason (the modern apostates: atheists and relativist materialists).

If you would like more elaboration on this as well, I have a wonderful article that i think you would enjoy in addition to the one above. Let me know if you would like to see it. It’s called the “Seal and the Mark and Everything in Between”.

Blessings to you, freesoulhope!

In Her love,
scott
 
Good_Fella said:
I respect the different schools of thought
concerning the interpretation of the Apocalypse, except for Hal Lindsay
kind of stuff. :
Click to expand...
What do you mean when you say “Hal Lindsay kind of stuff”?

Do you mean reading Gods prophecy like he told the prophets to say it?
Which means when he says Israel, God means Israel.

Is that what you mean by Hal Lindsay kind of stuff?
 
Hal Lindsey is a crackpot false prophet. The fruits of his tree attest to this. He has made 2 or 3predictions about the Rapture and all have failed to happen.

His website’s name makes the claim that he is God’s prophet.
 
Ask any body,(that Say’s he is a prophet of Rev.) if they can inter pet Rev .10, and tell you what the seven thunders said to the church’s, if they can then they are worth listening to, if they can not then leave them alone they are false prophets.They all commit the same sin ,of Revelation 22/18 and are condemned.To the plagues of Rev.Walt
 
spauline said:
Oh, I think you are definitely close to what’s going on. Precisely: salvation history itself is a SPIRITUAL process. Ame to that.

And, yes, I would say the imagries of Revelation in the Dragon, Beast and false prophet are dealing in primary sense with a spiritual way of looking at things.

For just as God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, imaged in the completeness of “7”, so then “6” is great imperfection, that is, of man. Hence, 3 6’s means man makes God in his image, deifying himself, which is the essence of what is spoken of in Genesis in the beginning with the Serpent.

So there is the Father Almighty, the Son who is Incarnated, and the Word spoken between Them is the Holy Spirit. And, yes, the Word spoken by God is one of reckless gift, reception, abandonment, love, sacrifice.

So then there is the dragon, Satan, the Father of lies, the False Word, the word that says:

“God is lying, He does not speak the truth, and you will surely not die, for there a no consequences to sin, neither termporal nor spiritual. And ‘you will be like gods’, that is, you can be independent of God, His Love, His Help, His Grace, you can do everything on your own, and this mere material creation (the ‘fruit’) is all you need. You can forge a utopia utterly independent of God and any assistance or truth of his. You yourselves will be the arbiter and origin of truth, not God.”

And this very lie of Satan is repeatedly incarnated in human history through the great ages of sin, in which humanity repeatedly buys this lie and goes with it, making it a concrete (again, ‘incarnated’) reality in this world.

And again, the embodiment of this very lie that is shared between “father” (Satan) and his children of sin (‘the beast’) is in fact the metaphor in the “False Prophet”.

And for a big elaboration on this, you might read my article on this:

The Seven-Horned Lamb, the True Logos, and the Two-Horned Lamb, the False Logos

Also, we can see a certain sense in which the Seal of God is contrasted with the Mark of the Beast. And, again, I see it as spiritual. So that the Seal in its fullness is received by faithful Catholics in the “forehead”, that is, in the depths of their intellect. That is, they shall be “chaste” in regards to truth, which the forehead ponders in the mind. They “shall not be harmed” by the assault that is the Trumpets, progressive spiritual attacks on the very development of the Church’s doctrine, so that various ecclesiological classes arise in history arise as the results of progressive spiritual harms, culminating in utter depravity: the Mark of the Beast, an imprint on someone who will hear *nothing *of the Gospel, not the Trinity or Incarnation (Muslims), not the Pope (schismatics), not the general Bishops and Oral Tradition (heretics), not the Scriptures (the Enlightenment Deists and Rationalists), and finally, not even Reason itself, which is common to all humanity, if they will but seek to live in reason (the modern apostates: atheists and relativist materialists).

If you would like more elaboration on this as well, I have a wonderful article that i think you would enjoy in addition to the one above. Let me know if you would like to see it. It’s called the “Seal and the Mark and Everything in Between”.

Blessings to you, freesoulhope!

In Her love,
scott
Click to expand...
For just as God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, imaged in the completeness of “7”, so then “6” is great imperfection, that is, of man. Hence, 3 6’s means man makes God in his image, deifying himself, which is the essence of what is spoken of in Genesis in the beginning with the Serpent.
RIGHT ON WALT.
 
walt2000 said:
Sorry, if that is to blunt ,but CHRIST MADE THE RULES
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Yow! The 2000 year reign of christ, when God will rule in the hearts of men, and then, at the end of that 2000 year reign, he will let the dragon free, and the dragon will tempt the world; the hour of temptation.

Do you know what im speaking about? If you do, try and explain to me what it means; if you can’t thats okay, i was just wondering about it. Thats all.

Peace.
 
----------------------- IT SHOWS YOUR THINKING.----------------------------2 =----------------------- UNION ( EXAMPLE JEW’S & CHRISTIANS)
-----------------------------UNION OF OIL AND WINE , in the mass.grafting of the olive and grape tree to make one

1,000=----------------------------------------------------- A MEGA NUMBER an mult.10000 x10000 and thousands of thousands a mult. mega number.walt
 
Good_Fella said:
Spauline, no sarcasm intended. I respect the different schools of thought
concerning the interpretation of the Apocalypse, except for Hal Lindsay
kind of stuff. I, too, have my doubts about a particular future anti-christ,
and I don’t believe that Enoch and Elijah will return in the flesh as the
two witnesses. I have wondered whether John is referring to Peter and Paul,
actually, before their martyrdom which is now history. Concerning time, I view
the Book as not progressing in a linear sequential course. There seems
to be a timeless quality about it, since it is a (cryptic) summation of the eternal
spiritual truths pieced together throughout the course of the Old and New
Testaments. Does that make sense? 🤷
Click to expand...
Two witnesses ? how about CHRISTIAN AND JEW ,OLIVE AND GRAPE- UNION (GRAFTING)
.
 
walt2000: Let me ask you this:

Do you think there will be a great chastisement before an Era of peace followed by a falling away and then later the Anti-christ?

If you had to bet on it when do you think the gospel will first be preached to all the nations?

John Paull II said in this millenium. Do you agree?
 
Good_Fella said:
Spauline, no sarcasm intended. I respect the different schools of thought
concerning the interpretation of the Apocalypse, except for Hal Lindsay
kind of stuff. I, too, have my doubts about a particular future anti-christ,
and I don’t believe that Enoch and Elijah will return in the flesh as the
two witnesses. I have wondered whether John is referring to Peter and Paul,
actually, before their martyrdom which is now history. Concerning time, I view
the Book as not progressing in a linear sequential course. There seems
to be a timeless quality about it, since it is a (cryptic) summation of the eternal
spiritual truths pieced together throughout the course of the Old and New
Testaments. Does that make sense? 🤷
Click to expand...
Hi, I think there can be multiple layers of meaning. Of course, in the level of preterism, certainly Sts. Peter and Paul are a good match. Similarly, I suppose we can see Enoch and Elijah as possbile in futurism.

But I would say neither of these is the fuller meaning. For does not the Church “witness” to the Divine Truths by drawing from the two great Divine Well-springs of Knowledge, Scripture and Tradition.

Also, with regards to timelessness, I can see that as one layer of meaning. And yet, there is, as I perceive it, a true spiritual process in human history that is linear. For the saint passes through stages of the way: the purgative, the illuminative, and the unitive. Why not also the Church?

In that vein, I see a perfect correlation between the great illuminative phase and the Two Witnesses. I can give you the essay or link if you like?

Blessings to you, Good Fella!
scott
🙂
 
JoeyWarren said:
when it says it is the the number a man. The translation in general is messed up.

The underlying Greek in Rev 13:18 for
“for it is the number of a man” is anthropos which better translates "for it is the number of mankind.

And the we have John’s 6.66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

John 6:66 is the only 666 combination in the NT.

Conincidence?
Click to expand...
1 Kings 10:14
The gold that Solomon received every year weighed six hundred and sixty-six gold talents

When Solomon began to turn away from God, he began to tax at the rate of 666

He also multiplied horses & chariots from Egypt, he had many wifes, and built too much wealth, All of these were the warnings from God given to Israel if they got a King.

In revelation, the 666 could be pointing to Solomon being the type of the Anti-Christ with his turning away from the true God to foreign gods of his many wifes.
 
John 6:66 is the only 666 combination in the NT.

Conincidence?
There are no conincidence’s in the bible.We are to reason why.
walt
 
But Rev. states that Rev.22/18 .You have to know that .When you com pair the rest of the bible to Rev.You can com pair Rev. to the rest of the bible.Just do not com pair the rest of the bible to Rev.
as a com formation only.It should confirm Revelations.Walt
 
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