Are these nonconforming lay practices ok?

[DaveBj]

1. Wouldn’t be a problem in our parish.
2. Hmm–that is the response in our parish. I reckon it would be someone who says something else that would stand out.

 

[jabelltulsa]

I agree completely. I have seen many times on these boards of “traditionalists” and “conservatives” complaining of things that, in the long run, mean very little. I honestly doubt that Jesus cares more about genuflecting than feeding the hungry, for example.

For me, genuflecting and being charitable are on the same level. Both show love for God. Both show obedience to Him. Both help me grow in the faith. Our faith is a faith of love, but also obedience.

If Jesus was standing in front of me, I would kneel. That is why I kneel when receiving Communion - because He is in front of me.

I think it is rather uncharitable for anyone to think that someone kneeling is trying to be holier than thou. If I witness them being respectful to our Lord, then they have my respect, and I would like to imitate them.

:twocents:

 

[twosweetgirls]

I have to wonder about the true motives of worshippers who feel compelled to stand out during mass by the excessive demonstrations of extraordinary practices that individuate themselves so as to seem more pious than the rest of the poor sinners in attendance.

The disciples who were present at the Last Supper reclined at table. Jesus didn’t seem to mind.

The disciples surely didn’t completely comprehend that they were receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord at the time. That also didn’t seem to bother Jesus.

And why not? Because Jesus knew their hearts.

A *humble and contrite heart *is a much more effective witness than the gymnastics I have seen performed during mass. And frankly, I find it extremely distracting when the person ahead of me in line suddenly drops to his knees, causing me to trip and unbalance the person behind me as well.

Please read Matthew 6:5-8. These theatrical demonstrations of piety fall in the category of personal devotions and as such, should not be done during mass. Bow, stoop, genuflect (one knee or both), lie prostrate if you choose… crawl up the aisles, rend your garments, cover your heads with ashes! But please, do it on your own time and not during the mass.

You’ve found a document that says it’s perfectly fine that you receive communion on your knees. But, since your pastor has asked you not to, you’re going to run to your bishop and tattle on him - like a grade school child. Is this just treatment of a man who is trying to maintain order during mass? Who is already over worked because of the priest shortage? Who hears more complaining from the holier than Jesus himself crowd than he will ever hear thanks and appreciation?

I actually heard of a parishioner who wrote to the bishop because her priest in a human moment forgot to kiss the altar ONE TIME during daily mass. What’s up with that? Write the bishop if you find your parish priest sacrificing virgins and chickens, or trying to consecrate chocolate chip cookies!

Let’s see more genuine Christian charity instead of can you top this piety at mass.

My goodness, such vitriol. I’m really sorry you feel that way.

I can almost guarantee that, in a parish with several thousand members, at the Masses I’ve been to I’m the only one who kneels to receive our Blessed Jesus. If I could receive Him prostrate on the floor, I certainly would–how He would lovingly deign to humble Himself so I may receive Him this way is really more than my feckle and stupid heart can comprehend. I kneel not to show the other thousands in attendance “HA, look at me, I’m holier than you!” or any other such “gymnastics” you present.

said very gently now What I read from your words isn’t so much an affront to you of what other people are doing. . . rather, I sense that perhaps their actions make you feel lacking somehow. I’m probably smoking too much crack or something, but that’s the only reason I can figure for your indignity at others.

You mentioned that “Jesus knew their hearts”–whispering now Maybe Jesus can handle the apparent actions of others’ hearts while you look to Him in your own. said with utmost respect

 

[benedictgal]

Where has the Vatican said this? I’m just curious because the USCCB says the norm is standing.

Andy, out of fraternal charity, I will repeat what I had posted earlier (post #2). The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments issued a ruling that receiving Holy Communion while kneeling was perfectly allowed. This Congregation, part of the Roman Curia, is the steward for the Church’s liturgical and sacramental life. It is an important VATICAN office. The ruling was issued in 2002 and has been reaffirmed by both Francis Cardinal Arinze (who is the present prefect -read- head) and by none other than His Holiness, himself, Pope Benedict XVI.

Here is the link so that you and Nina (by the way welcome to CAF) may read it:

adoremus.org/Notitiae-kneeling.html

I do take some exception to those who throw around the conservative/traditional labels rather flippantly. Just because there are those of us who prefer to stick with Peter on all liturgical issues that shouldn’t serve as a black eye. For those who think that kneeling is a throwback to 1952, I refer to a comment that then-Cardinal Ratzinger made regarding the issue:

Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God. The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy.

…The bodily gesture itself is the bearer of the spiritual meaning, which is precisely that of worship. Without the worship, the bodily gesture would be meaningless, while the spiritual act must of its very nature, because of the psychosomatic unity of man, express itself in the bodily gesture.

The two aspects are united in the one word, because in a very profound way they belong together. When kneeling becomes merely external, a merely physical act, it becomes meaningless. One the other hand, when someone tries to take worship back into the purely spiritual realm and refuses to give it embodied form, the act of worship evaporates, for what is purely spiritual is inappropriate to the nature of man. Worship is one of those fundamental acts that affect the whole man. That is why bending the knee before the presence of the living God is something we cannot abandon.

In saying this, we come to the typical gesture of kneeling on one or both knees. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament, the verb barak, “to kneel”, is cognate with the word berek, “knee”. The Hebrews regarded the knees as a symbol of strength, to bend the knee is, therefore, to bend our strength before the living God, an acknowledgment of the fact that all that we are we receive from Him. In important passages of the Old Testament, this gesture appears as an expression of worship.

At the dedication of the Temple, Solomon kneels “in the presence of all the assembly of Israel” (II Chron 6:13). After the Exile, in the afflictions of the returned Israel, which is still without a Temple, Ezra repeats this gesture at the time of the evening sacrifice: “I … fell upon my knees and spread out my hands to the Lord my God” (Ezra 9:5). The great psalm of the Passion, Psalm 22 (“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”), ends with the promise: “Yes, to Him shall all the proud of the earth fall down; before Him all who go down to the dust shall throw themselves down” (v. 29, RSV adapted).

The related passage Isaiah 45:23 we shall have to consider in the context of the New Testament. The Acts of the Apostles tells us how Saint Peter (9:40), Saint Paul (20:36), and the whole Christian community (21:5) pray on their knees.

Going back to the original poster’s question, there is no prohibition on kneeling for Holy Communion. In fact, no where in the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy was there a ban on kneeling. In fact, in 1976, I received my First Holy Communion kneeling. As late as 1982, we wer still kneeling to receive Holy Communion in my parish.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Andy, out of fraternal charity, I will repeat what I had posted earlier (post #2). The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments issued a ruling that receiving Holy Communion while kneeling was perfectly allowed. This Congregation, part of the Roman Curia, is the steward for the Church’s liturgical and sacramental life. It is an important VATICAN office. The ruling was issued in 2002 and has been reaffirmed by both Francis Cardinal Arinze (who is the present prefect -read- head) and by none other than His Holiness, himself, Pope Benedict XVI.

Here is the link so that you and Nina (by the way welcome to CAF) may read it:

adoremus.org/Notitiae-kneeling.html

I do take some exception to those who throw around the conservative/traditional labels rather flippantly. Just because there are those of us who prefer to stick with Peter on all liturgical issues that shouldn’t serve as a black eye. For those who think that kneeling is a throwback to 1952, I refer to a comment that then-Cardinal Ratzinger made regarding the issue:

Going back to the original poster’s question, there is no prohibition on kneeling for Holy Communion. In fact, no where in the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy was there a ban on kneeling. In fact, in 1976, I received my First Holy Communion kneeling. As late as 1982, we wer still kneeling to receive Holy Communion in my parish.

The norm for receiving communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. This was confirmed by the reference to the USCCB that someone above posted. Get your liturgy information from the source, not from Adoramus or EWTN.

Enough said.

 

[ThuribleGuy45]

Let me approach this from the other side of the ciborium.

The first time someone knelt before me while I was assisting at Communion, it became a profound spiritual gift to me. Distributing Communion to 300 or 400 people of a morning can become, frankly, somewhat mechanical at some point. That person’s kneeling was a sharp reminder of the profound nature of what I was doing and Who I was touching. I have never forgotten that incident, and remind myself of it whenever assisting at Communion threatens to become “routine.”

I realize all this side-steps the issues of liturgical norms, traffic flow, and pastoral obedience, but I thought I’d contribute this perspective.

 

[benedictgal]

The norm for receiving communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. This was confirmed by the reference to the USCCB that someone above posted. Get your liturgy information from the source, not from Adoramus or EWTN.

Enough said.

PaixGioiaAmor:

The source, while posted on the Adoremus website, comes directly from the Vatican itself, by the hand of the former Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. The document was written in response to some serious matters that involved denying the faithful the opportunity to receive Holy Communion because they were kneeling.

The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213). In view of the law that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them” (canon 843 ¶ 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and – if the complaint is verified – that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.

Thanking Your Excellency for your attention to this matter and relying on your kind collaboration in its regard,

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez
Prefect

Because we cannot post the entire document, per forum rules, what I have posted above is the guts of what the former Prefect said. Please do not be so quick to discount sources like Adoremus and EWTN. They serve as the link to the source; they aren’t the actual source. And, please do not be so quick to discount the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. While in the United States the norm is to stand for reception of Holy Communion, priests are prohibited from denying anyone the Sacrament on the basis of the communicant kneeling. If you wish to oppose what the CDWDS ruled (and what it has reaffirmed under the current Prefect and Pope Benedict XVI), then, feel free to take it up with them yourself.

Enough said.

 

[TMC]

I think both of these practices are fine, and I assume that those that do so are intending to be extra reverent. I must admit that whenever someone adopts a practice contrary to the rest of the parish, I find it a little disruptive. But I just ignore it. (That can be hard if someone is chanting behind you.) When I am visiting another parish I generally adopt whatever their practice is on these kinds of things.

While we are on the topic, what I find more distracting is what I think of as asynchronous responders. These are people that when the entire congregation responds in unison consistently respond a beat off from the crowd. A very nice and devout woman that sits behind me consistently does this. It used to distract and annoy me, but after four or five years I got used to hearing her voice seperately and now it doesn’t bother me (as much).

 

[benedictgal]

Let me approach this from the other side of the ciborium.

The first time someone knelt before me while I was assisting at Communion, it became a profound spiritual gift to me. Distributing Communion to 300 or 400 people of a morning can become, frankly, somewhat mechanical at some point. That person’s kneeling was a sharp reminder of the profound nature of what I was doing and Who I was touching. I have never forgotten that incident, and remind myself of it whenever assisting at Communion threatens to become “routine.”

I realize all this side-steps the issues of liturgical norms, traffic flow, and pastoral obedience, but I thought I’d contribute this perspective.

That is an excellent point. All too often, those of us who serve as EMHC tend to forget WHO we are holding in our hands when we distribute the Sacred Species. We hold in our hands the One whom the whole world cannot contain; yet, He chooses to come to us, poor sinful creatures that we are. Communion is nothing more than this: God seeks to touch us, to embrace us, and, as Pope Benedict so shockingly said in Cologne, to kiss us, and he does this the moment we physically receive and consume him. He hands over His Body to us. He chooses us to become our food and our sustenance. Who are we to judge if someone chooses to kneel when receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

After all, St. Peter knelt before him after the miraculous catch of fish and told him, “Leave me, Lord, for I am a sinful man.” We, too, are sinful, yet, He does not leave us.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The only issue the congregation addressed was if Communion could be denied. They rightly said that it cannot be. To deny Communion is a canonical penalty reserved in canon law for certain circumstances. Even extreme disobeidence or abuse of norms is not usually in and of itself cause for this action.

Standing is still the norm. You should not kneel to receive Communion. A priest, however, cannot deny Communion to someone who violates this norm for the reasons stated above.

 

[benedictgal]

The only issue the congregation addressed was if Communion could be denied. They rightly said that it cannot be. To deny Communion is a canonical penalty reserved in canon law for certain circumstances. Even extreme disobeidence or abuse of norms is not usually in and of itself cause for this action.

Standing is still the norm. You should not kneel to receive Communion. A priest, however, cannot deny Communion to someone who violates this norm for the reasons stated above.

No one is debating that issue with you; however, you should not narrowly read the text. Kneeling may not be the norm, but, as Pope Benedict said, it is a posture that comes to us from biblical times.

The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy.

In fact, Cardinal Estevez makes a reference to then-Cardinal Ratzinger when it comes to kneeling:

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

If a high ranking official who has since become Pope makes that statement, how can you refer to kneeling when receiving Holy Communion as an abuse?

Furthermore, the letter did not say that it was an abuse, nor, did Cardinal Estevez refer to it as a disobedience. Nor, I might add, did he refer to it as a violation of the norm. Please do not put words in the cardinal’s mouth. Quite frankly, the notion of kneeling to receive communion does not even show up in Redemptionis Sacramentum as an abuse on the part of the communicant. Please study the issue before making blanket statements. It is not helping your cause.

Bottom line is that communion cannot be denied to a communicant who kneels to receive Jesus.

 

[milimac]

Going back to the original poster’s question, there is no prohibition on kneeling for Holy Communion. In fact, no where in the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy was there a ban on kneeling. In fact, in 1976, I received my First Holy Communion kneeling. As late as 1982, we wer still kneeling to receive Holy Communion in my parish.

So I think we’ve established that kneeling to receive the Eucharist is ok liturgically. The question now is whether one should continue to do so if the pastor has asked you not to, even if you have a right to do it. There is something to be said for obedience to your pastor, even if he probably shouldn’t have requested the person stop doing it.

 

[milimac]

I think both of these practices are fine, and I assume that those that do so are intending to be extra reverent. I must admit that whenever someone adopts a practice contrary to the rest of the parish, I find it a little disruptive. But I just ignore it. (That can be hard if someone is chanting behind you.) When I am visiting another parish I generally adopt whatever their practice is on these kinds of things.

While we are on the topic, what I find more distracting is what I think of as asynchronous responders. These are people that when the entire congregation responds in unison consistently respond a beat off from the crowd. A very nice and devout woman that sits behind me consistently does this. It used to distract and annoy me, but after four or five years I got used to hearing her voice seperately and now it doesn’t bother me (as much).

That’s a nice balanced perspective, and I want to reiterate that neither of these things are giving me conniption fits. What does concern me is that such practices can convey the attitude that Mass is a group of individuals worshiping at the same time and place, but not in communion – I do my thing, you do yours, Jesus 'n me, Jesus 'n you, it’s all good. But Jesus is never alone is he? When we come into communion, we are in communion with him, the Trinity, the angels and saints, AND with each other. I don’t want to overemphasize “us” as some seem to and make it all about us, but neither do I want to swing too far to the opposite direction where we forget that communion with each other is also a very important aspect of the Mass.

 

[twosweetgirls]

^That’s an excellent point.

 

[THurifer2]

I honestly doubt that Jesus cares more about genuflecting than feeding the hungry, for example.

Huh? you do realize that Jesus was and Is GOd incarnate right?

I am certain that in his omnipotence he can care about all things equally. Its not an either/OR question. You make it sound like one either has to feed the hungry OR Kneel at communion.

I would be willing to bet that both please God.

 

[THurifer2]

I have to wonder about the true motives of worshippers who feel compelled to stand out during mass by the excessive demonstrations of extraordinary practices that individuate themselves so as to seem more pious than the rest of the poor sinners in attendance.
.

I am wondering what your definition of “real presence is”. If you were visiting the queen of England would you genulflect? The Eucharist is the KIng of Kings…the Master and RUler of the universe…unless you are one of those who watches the communion line instead of bowing in silent prayer after communion how would you even know what a communicant was doing?

I have to wonder what the true motives of worshippers who feel compelled to criticize those who demonstrate personal piety.

It reminds me of the family who often sits in front of us. (they volunteer at planned parenthood by the way) THeir irreverance is so obvious at Mass that it can be distracting. After communion they kneel and watch others recieve and has small chat. I am certain that one could use this as an example of how to act.

Let me ask you this. If you were in a parish where everyone went to their Knees…would you? Or would you be compelled to stand out?

HERE is a good article by a very humble priest that explains the personal act of piety during reception of the EUCARIST.

 

[THurifer2]

The norm for receiving communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. This was confirmed by the reference to the USCCB that someone above posted. Get your liturgy information from the source, not from Adoramus or EWTN.

Enough said.

This norm is has been over-ruled by the Vatican. You are providing misleading information by your above post.

I am not sure if you learned this in your day long liturgy class but norms can be overridden by the Vatican.

From Redemptionis Sacramentum

1. In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them”.177 Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.

 

[stmaria]

(Eph 3 14-17)
For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.

Philippians, 2:10-11 “**at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, **of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

If every knee should bend at the name of Jesus, shouldn’t every knee bend in** His Presence**?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

This norm is has been over-ruled by the Vatican. You are providing misleading information by your above post.

I am not sure if you learned this in your day long liturgy class but norms can be overridden by the Vatican.

From Redemptionis Sacramentum

1. In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them”.177 Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.

Once again, what you have hilighted is that Eucharist cannot be DENIED. I already adressed why it cannot be denied in an earlier post. Nowhere does this document state that it is preferable to receive kneeling, and standing is still the norm. It simply says that a priest cannot DENY Communion because someone takes the wrong posture. The norm is still standing; this has not been overruled. Is this so hard to grasp?

Keep making fun of what you perceive to be my lack of training. I’m the one making decisions in my parish and you’re the one complaining and writing letters that go in the trash.

 

[scylla]

(Eph 3 14-17)
For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.

Philippians, 2:10-11 “**at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, **of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

If every knee should bend at the name of Jesus, shouldn’t every knee bend in** His Presence**?

Stop bringing up Scripture, don’t you realize that we are the people of God and that is more important?

Scylla