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guanophore
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Well, the Sedavacantists have! So, what was there before Vat II? What was the 'traditional" way of getting people in prior to RCIA?
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tcraig
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But in many cases - certainly in my own - we don’t have a choice on what parish we can join. I lived in the south when I converted; Catholic masses are few and far between down there, and the Catholic church in my town was the only one around for quite a distance.
But it begs the question of why there are “wrong parishes” to begin with. Why is it that in the last town I lived in there were three Catholic churches and not one of them celebrated the liturgy alike? Why was one of those churches a “church in the round” with a rock band and no visible tabernacle?
Why is it that when I was a Methodist I could attend a Methodist service in another town and have continuity, but the thought of looking for a mass to attend while on vacation fills me with dread?
I’m not lacking in faith. It’s my faith that has kept me plugging along at all these horrible parishes I keep ending up in. But it’s really sad when going to mass on Sunday truly ends up being an obligation rather than a joy.
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guanophore
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Great post, and thanks for sharing. I can resonate with the longing for vibrant worship. Only in the Charismatic Masses have I found worship music and enthusiasm comparable to my protestant experiences. I yearn for the “really old” and love attending at the Byzantine parish for that reason.
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jmcrae
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They also don’t consider themselves to be under the authority of the Pope, which means that they can do whatever they want. I wouldn’t look to them for guidance on what we can do in our churches.
Individual instruction from a priest, which typically consisted of 24 Catechism lessons, followed by a comprehensive test, which, if they got 100% on the test, they would receive private Baptism. After this, they would be permitted/required to start attending Sunday Mass but without receiving any of the other Sacraments yet.
On the anniversary of their Baptism they would receive First Confession, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion, again in a private ceremony.
Most of the parish would have been completely unaware of your existence - if we think we feel “unwelcomed” now because they don’t break out the red carpet and the brass band for us, imagine what it must have been like when nobody except the priest was even allowed to meet you at all before you were baptized, and then when you did start going to Mass, you would just be this strange person who sits in the back and never does anything.
But they would get to know the priest quite well, and those relationships often became quite strong.
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guanophore
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In that case, it seems that, in spite of the problems with RCIA, it is leaps and bounds in the right direction.They also don’t consider themselves to be under the authority of the Pope, which means that they can do whatever they want. I wouldn’t look to them for guidance on what we can do in our churches.
Individual instruction from a priest, which typically consisted of 24 Catechism lessons, followed by a comprehensive test, which, if they got 100% on the test, they would receive private Baptism. After this, they would be permitted/required to start attending Sunday Mass but without receiving any of the other Sacraments yet.
On the anniversary of their Baptism they would receive First Confession, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion, again in a private ceremony.
Most of the parish would have been completely unaware of your existence - if we think we feel “unwelcomed” now because they don’t break out the red carpet and the brass band for us, imagine what it must have been like when nobody except the priest was even allowed to meet you at all before you were baptized, and then when you did start going to Mass, you would just be this strange person who sits in the back and never does anything.
But they would get to know the priest quite well, and those relationships often became quite strong.
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paramedicgirl
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Again, here is a post that has hit the proverbial nail on the head.** This** is what the problem is. This is why new converts are feeling cheated out of the faith they have come to know, desire and love. They don’t get what they are entitled to, and that is the problem.
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Brennan_Doherty
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In all the posts I have read so far I don’t see any indication that people don’t know that the externals are not “the faith.”
However, I would say that externals, such as liturgy, art, and architecture are a lot more than “icing.” For instance, we have the official teaching of the Church which stands no matter what. Yet, how that teaching is transmitted via catechesis (such as homilies, RCIA, etc.) is critical to the life of Catholics.
Similarly, the liturgy, art, and architecture are to transmit big T tradition (the Faith) via the “externals.” In fact, I don’t think big T tradition is really possible to transmit without small t tradition. And, going further, liturgy, art, and architecture do more than teach, they are there to help form the souls of Catholics and orient them to God. Quite an important assignment.
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jmcrae
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Brennan;
Yes - but I strongly suspect that the number of parishes that are actually unfaithful to the teaching of the Church is in reality a lot less than the number that are simply not “traditional-looking (Gothic) enough.”
I love the Gothic look - tons of statues, candles, alcoves, icons, stained glass windows, etc., and I’ll admit to being a little out of my element when worshipping in a Spanish-style, or in an Italian-style church, because of how plain they look in contrast - but the thing is, the Spanish style or the Italian style isn’t any more “modern” than the Gothic (and in fact, it might even be older) but it’s “weird” to my sensibilities, and yes, it can be distracting - if I let it be. But it’s no less Catholic, for all that.
And just because the Spanish style or the Italian style isn’t what we normally see on TV or in books, doesn’t mean that we can’t learn how to be good Catholics in those environments - or that they are lacking anything in the way of good catechesis, even within the architecture, which, though subtle to our (or at least my) Gothic-conditioned eyes, it’s still there - the stained glass windows may not be as ornate or as literally explicit, but they are there and the symbolism is still there. After all, millions of Spaniards and Italians became good Catholics in these sorts of churches.
Yes - but I strongly suspect that the number of parishes that are actually unfaithful to the teaching of the Church is in reality a lot less than the number that are simply not “traditional-looking (Gothic) enough.”
I love the Gothic look - tons of statues, candles, alcoves, icons, stained glass windows, etc., and I’ll admit to being a little out of my element when worshipping in a Spanish-style, or in an Italian-style church, because of how plain they look in contrast - but the thing is, the Spanish style or the Italian style isn’t any more “modern” than the Gothic (and in fact, it might even be older) but it’s “weird” to my sensibilities, and yes, it can be distracting - if I let it be. But it’s no less Catholic, for all that.
And just because the Spanish style or the Italian style isn’t what we normally see on TV or in books, doesn’t mean that we can’t learn how to be good Catholics in those environments - or that they are lacking anything in the way of good catechesis, even within the architecture, which, though subtle to our (or at least my) Gothic-conditioned eyes, it’s still there - the stained glass windows may not be as ornate or as literally explicit, but they are there and the symbolism is still there. After all, millions of Spaniards and Italians became good Catholics in these sorts of churches.
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Brennan_Doherty
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jmcrae, thanks for your response. I agree with your post. To clarify, I’m not making any argument about Gothic churches vs. Baroque vs. Neo-Classical vs. Spanish etc. All these styles are perfectly fine. And I would consider it elevating personal preference too far if a new Cathedral was being built in a Spanish mission style and I wanted it in neo-classical so I complain about it.
Rather, I am talking about modern churches that are really not in any of the aforementioned styles (and are not connected to them, either). They are so stripped of any Catholic externals (and architecture) that they look more like business meeting halls with an altar.
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Rob_s_Wife
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**I typed a post and deleted it.
**All I can say is it is NOT about indult or n.o. mass.
I completely understand how some of those bloggers feel.
**I don’t feel I have a romantic or unrealistic view of the Church. I love the Church. **
I think there are many people who say this or that is a cross for so-and-so people to bear and they’ll just have to offer it up and get through it. Which may well be true to a degree. However, they forget that even Jesus needed someone to help Him carry His cross.
**Many converts are rather astounded to find there is no one to help them carry their cross at church. ****They are leaving because they know they can’t carry their cross alone. **They are searching for help to carry their cross.
Before anyone freaks out over Rob’s Wife posting this,
I am not leaving the Church in any manner. I do feel a disconnect though.
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jmcrae
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Martha;
I understand you completely, because I am quite literally alone - there is no one in my family who is Catholic; I am the first and only convert since the year 1560, when all of my ancestors apostacized and became members of the Church of Scotland.
I suppose I can thank them for doing that, because otherwise they would (most likely) have been martyred, and I wouldn’t even be here - but it does get very lonely at times, especially when my Catholic friends are off doing things with their families that I can’t do, too.
But I also know that as long as I’ve got Jesus in the Eucharist, I’ll never really be alone - that’s the thing that counts.
I understand you completely, because I am quite literally alone - there is no one in my family who is Catholic; I am the first and only convert since the year 1560, when all of my ancestors apostacized and became members of the Church of Scotland.
I suppose I can thank them for doing that, because otherwise they would (most likely) have been martyred, and I wouldn’t even be here - but it does get very lonely at times, especially when my Catholic friends are off doing things with their families that I can’t do, too.
But I also know that as long as I’ve got Jesus in the Eucharist, I’ll never really be alone - that’s the thing that counts.
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Frank_Fenn
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Hello Paramedicgirl;
Do you want to know why I left my RCIA class and went to Catechism with an SSPX priest? A few reasons. One, an issue arose where my wife asked a question and a legit one too, of the priest who was teaching the RCIA, and he told her in front of the class that she should not ask that question, and afterwards, he told her she could no longer talk at RCIA.
Another reason, we had been faithfully attending the NO Mass
and seen a total lack of reverence there. I do not see that at an SSPX chapel. I have been very happy since at the SSPX chapel. Thank you for posting this.
Do you want to know why I left my RCIA class and went to Catechism with an SSPX priest? A few reasons. One, an issue arose where my wife asked a question and a legit one too, of the priest who was teaching the RCIA, and he told her in front of the class that she should not ask that question, and afterwards, he told her she could no longer talk at RCIA.
Another reason, we had been faithfully attending the NO Mass
and seen a total lack of reverence there. I do not see that at an SSPX chapel. I have been very happy since at the SSPX chapel. Thank you for posting this.
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wynd
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jmcrae
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The only way I can see that happening is if it were presented in an anti-Catholic style of phrasing, along the lines of Are you still molesting little boys, Father? or if it was wildly off-topic - like if she was asking about Mary on the day that they were studying the Magesterium, or something like that, thus causing the priest to think that she suffers from ADD or something like that.
(I, too, suffer from ADD, and I have often been asked to observe but not participate in various classes, because I tend to be very disruptive, without meaning to be. I see it as a cross, and I offer it up to Jesus whenever this sort of thing happens. On the other hand, they do let me teach, and apparently my classes are considered to be among the most “fun.”
)
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Frank_Fenn
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my wifes mental health is fine thank you, so please do not assume anything about her. the question she asked was about the anglican church and marrying gays, as the priest had said that there was talk of wanting them back with Rome. my wife commented that why would the church want to reconcile with the anglican church as it marries gays?The only way I can see that happening is if it were presented in an anti-Catholic style of phrasing, along the lines of Are you still molesting little boys, Father? or if it was wildly off-topic - like if she was asking about Mary on the day that they were studying the Magesterium, or something like that, thus causing the priest to think that she suffers from ADD or something like that.
(I, too, suffer from ADD, and I have often been asked to observe but not participate in various classes, because I tend to be very disruptive, without meaning to be. I see it as a cross, and I offer it up to Jesus whenever this sort of thing happens. On the other hand, they do let me teach, and apparently my classes are considered to be among the most “fun.”
she was then asked not to talk at the RCIA anymore. not to comment any further.
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jmcrae
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I’m sorry to hear it - yes, that was not handled very well at all - although obviously this isn’t an RCIA-level discussion to have, he should have offered to meet with her privately to thrash out her concerns.
I’m even more sorry that she gave up Christ’s Church because of that, since neither that priest nor any of us is going to have any say about the Anglicans, no matter what happens.
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Frank_Fenn
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we did not give up Christ’s Church. We attend the SSPX chapel. that is all I can say further.
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jmcrae
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I think I’d be “making trouble” if I were to ask the obvious question, so I won’t.
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Brennan_Doherty
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Very good (and obvious) question. Maybe the priest didn’t like it because he didn’t have a good answer for it or didn’t want to get into the fact that the Catholic Church considers homosexual acts to be objectively disordered and sinful.
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tcraig
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I personally think converts are more astounded that attending church has become the cross - because of abusive liturgies, horrible music, and bad theology.
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