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Are those who do not receive Jesus in Holy Eucharist really Christians? Is it insanity for them to continue claiming to be Christians?
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brownjt
Guest
The 12th day of christmad…lalalala. The day of Epiphany or the Three Kings Day as some call it?
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PJM
Guest
** Re: Are those who do not receive Jesus in Holy Eucharist really Christians? Is it insanity for them to continue claiming to be Christians?**
Reply: I’d like to answer the orginal question.
In order to so so, we must define “Christian” and Catholic. Catholics are both Christian and Catholic, while Christians are “only” Christians.
Why is this understanding necessary?
**
Because there are TWO, truly great reason for being a Roman Catholic. Two reasons that seperate us, indeed make us better, than all other Christian denominations**.
Both are bibically proveable facts, even if one uses the KJV.
1. The Roman Catholic Church is the ONLY Chistian church actually, and literally founded by Jesus Christ Himself. And as history has proven has an unbroken like of Popes dating from St. Peter Himself.
Pertty Awesome huh:thumbsup:
Is it “insanity for them to do so?”
**No, Chrsitians receive a sign or symbol, which might leave them hungering for more? What they are going is a good practice, but compared to us Catholics, it is “just practice.”/**COLOR]
God bless,
PJM m.c.
Reply: I’d like to answer the orginal question.
In order to so so, we must define “Christian” and Catholic. Catholics are both Christian and Catholic, while Christians are “only” Christians.
Why is this understanding necessary?
**
Because there are TWO, truly great reason for being a Roman Catholic. Two reasons that seperate us, indeed make us better, than all other Christian denominations**.
Both are bibically proveable facts, even if one uses the KJV.
1. The Roman Catholic Church is the ONLY Chistian church actually, and literally founded by Jesus Christ Himself. And as history has proven has an unbroken like of Popes dating from St. Peter Himself.
- Only in Church’s that have a provable “Apolostolic Line of Succession,” Roman Catholic from year 33 Ad, and Orthodox from about the year 1000 AD. Only in these Church’s is the bread and wine, Transubstanuated into the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the very same Jesus born of Mary, who died on the Cross for us, and who rose from the dead. It is this now glorified Body of Jesus that we Catholics receice. Not a mere sign, not a mere symbol, as one finds in all other Chrsitian church’s
Pertty Awesome huh:thumbsup:
Is it “insanity for them to do so?”
**No, Chrsitians receive a sign or symbol, which might leave them hungering for more? What they are going is a good practice, but compared to us Catholics, it is “just practice.”/**COLOR]
God bless,
PJM m.c.
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VARC
Guest
** Re: Are those who do not receive Jesus in Holy Eucharist really Christians? Is it insanity for them to continue claiming to be Christians?**
Reply: I’d like to answer the orginal question.
In order to so so, we must define “Christian” and Catholic. Catholics are both Christian and Catholic, while Christians are “only” Christians.
Why is this understanding necessary?
**
Because there are TWO, truly great reason for being a Roman Catholic. Two reasons that seperate us, indeed make us better, than all other Christian denominations**.
Both are bibically proveable facts, even if one uses the KJV.
1. The Roman Catholic Church is the ONLY Chistian church actually, and literally founded by Jesus Christ Himself. And as history has proven has an unbroken like of Popes dating from St. Peter Himself.
One find’s proof of number one in Mt. 16:13-19, and number two in Mt, Mk., Lk., and John as well as by Paul in 1 Cor. and Eph.
- Only in Church’s that have a provable “Apolostolic Line of Succession,” Roman Catholic from year 33 Ad, and Orthodox from about the year 1000 AD. Only in these Church’s is the bread and wine, Transubstanuated into the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the very same Jesus born of Mary, who died on the Cross for us, and who rose from the dead. It is this now glorified Body of Jesus that we Catholics receice. Not a mere sign, not a mere symbol, as one finds in all other Chrsitian church’s
Pertty Awesome huh:thumbsup:
Is it “insanity for them to do so?”
**No, Chrsitians receive a sign or symbol, which might leave them hungering for more? What they are going is a good practice, but compared to us Catholics, it is “just practice.”/**COLOR]
God bless,
PJM m.c.
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ralphinal
Guest
A Sacrament IS a commandment. It is an outward sign, instituted by Christ corresponding to an inward change of Grace. Each sacrament is given to us by Christ as a means of Grace that may include staying in the right relationship with God or the stregnth to go on in a vocation. We are told to do them that we may have an easier time on earth through the Gifts of Grace and the Holy Spirit.
To deny them is to deny the commandments and work of Christ.
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Peter_J
Guest
They also have true Apostlic Succesion, and valid sacraments, if that’s what your asking. (So does the Polish National Catholic Church.)
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notsmart
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Hello Peter!
Far as I have seen, they can receive just like the Eastern Orthodox can (with disclaimers they follow the rules of their own communion, which means- it’s merely a gesture, or in case of emergency only they could, possibly do so)
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This does not mean, that bishops in schism have the ability to be giving anyone catholic valid sacraments really, right?
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PJM
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Reply:
Sorry, but I did say:“2. Only in Church’s that have a provable "Apolostolic Line of Succession,” Roman Catholic from year 33 Ad, and Orthodox from about the year 1000 AD. **Only in these Church’s is the bread and wine, Transubstanuated into the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the very same Jesus born of Mary, who died on the Cross for us, and who rose from the dead. It is this now glorified Body of Jesus that we Catholics receice. Not a mere sign, not a mere symbol, as one finds in all other Chrsitian church’s **
No excuse. but I’ve only been a Catholic for 64 years, and in all of my studies, I can’t recall (old age perhaps or looking in the wrong places?) any teaching about
QUOTE “What about the Orientals who broke from communion in 451 or the Assyrians who broke away 100 years before that?”
Seriously, if you can give me a little direction here, I’d like to know about them.
Sorry if I offended you, that was not my entent
God’s continued blessings,
PJM m.c.
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rinnie
Guest
Yes because Sacraments are what God left for us. They were outward signs to give us grace. They are what the RCC is made up of. How could you obey the ten commandments and ignore the sacraments?
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StMarina303ad
Guest
What is funny to me about this post is that supposedly a provable Apostolic Succession can begin “from about the year 1000 AD”. It’s funny to me because it is so clearly wrong.Reply:
“2. Only in Church’s that have a provable "Apolostolic Line of Succession,” Roman Catholic from year 33 Ad, and Orthodox from about the year 1000 AD.
Apostolic Succession - comes from the 1st Century - refering to each of the people who “succeeded” one of the 12 Apostles.
Only the Orthodox Churches and Catholic (Roman and the other 11 or so Rites of the Catholic Church) Churches have valid lines of Apostolic Succession because each of their Churches were founded originally by one of the 12 Apostles back in around 29 or 33 AD. The Orthodox Church of Antioch had a Successor before the Church of Rome did, but that doesn’t matter - what matters is that an Apostle established each of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. No Apostle ever founded a Protestant Church, a Jehovah’s Witness Church nor a Ladder Day Saint Church - only the Orthodox and Catholic Churches were founded by Apostles.
It was officially in 1054 AD that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches Officially Excommunicated Each other and in the 1960’s that Excommunication was mutually lifted. Today the two Churches are not in fully communion with each other, but who knows what the future will bring? And how soon it will bring it?
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PJM
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Hmmmm! Did I really say(ALL) Succession started in the year 1000
Actually my limited understanding is that Papal Succession is a natural consequence of Christ Mandate (carefully selected word) to St. Pater to completely Administer His Church.
Are we to understand that this clear Mandate (Mt. 16:13-19) was to die with Peter? Hmmmm
I don’t think so
God Bless,
PJM m.c.
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christianguy09
Guest
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 10:42-45
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VARC
Guest
The Churches of the Utrech Union, the Anglican Churches, the Nordic Lutheran Churches of Porvoo Communion, the Phillipine Independant Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Coptic Churches of Egpyt and Ethiopia,the Jacobite Churches of Syria and India, and the Armenian Apostolic Church all have apostolic succesion because all can trace their episcopal ordinations to the apostles. The question is whether apostolic succesion alone is enough for valid scaraments/mysteries.
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RobGentner
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Short answer - No! They must be part of the real church.
you know that all Humans are Creatures. But not All Creatures are Humans. All Catholics are christians, But all Christians are not “saved by the body and blood of our lord and savior Jesus Christ!” or as we like to say: (Catholic)
Why not?
Sure, You can be baptised in the name of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Sure, You can gather together and Jesus will be there spiritually with you. He told us so.
Sure, you can claim you are christians.
But, remember that before 1517AD, there was One Christian Church “ONE” with several different sects. (They are still firmly together even today! ).
While some were attempting to right some wrong practices in the Church, the devil saw this as a change to infecte the christian church and steal souls from the real church.
Foolishly, today there are 33,000 counterfeit denominations with 28,000 sub denominations having 1,375 doctrines and dogmas They all partially agree with the CC and all partially disagree with the CC. So I ask you who the heck is right? The church that has taught only the truth for 2,000 years refusing to compromise the truth and remained faithful to Jesus teachings,or 61,000 false denominations teaching over 1,375 doctrines.
You can copy money but if it doesn’t have the backing of the authorized issurer it is counterfeit. It can’t be spent to buy anything!
You can copy Christianity, but if it doesn’t have the backing of the Holy Catholic Church it is counterfeit. It can’t be used to obtain salvation!
Only the Catholic Church offers the real communion. The Eucharist! In it, Jesus is present both Physically and Spiritually. He is “Completely” present. You lord and God is Here for you to worship and eat as He commanded you must to obtain eternal salvation. Only true believers understand that because the devil keeps his followers blinded to the truth!
Eucharist comes from the Greek word, “eucharistia” which means “thanksgiving.” The Eucharist is “The Great Thanksgiving” in which we actually join with Jesus in the ordinary substances of bread and wine.
On the night before Jesus died he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to his disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body broken for you.” He then took the cup of wine and after giving thanks, gave it to them saying, “Drink from it, all of you; for this is my blood of the new covenant poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” (Matt. 26:26-28).
Please notice Jesus’ exact words. He did not say, “This ‘symbolizes’ or ‘represents’ my body and my blood,” he said “This IS my body and blood.” Jesus chose his words carefully at this significant moment Catholics like to take Him at His word. After all He is God!
It is not un-common for many so called Christians to re-arrange Jesus’ words in order to de-mystify this commandment and claim it is merely symbolic.
Jesus’ words baffles everyone to a degree. He changed Bread and Wine into His body and Blood and want us to drink it? Why? To save our eternal souls? We recognize Communion as Jesus gave it to us is a mystery that we cannot precisely define. But, because Jesus is God, we can affirm that in some way, the elements of bread and wine really do become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus in the Eucharist. When we partake of the Eucharist, we share in the life of Jesus Christ and become partners with him in his life and death and will receive eternal salvation. Therefore to not do so offers only eternal damnation.
St Paul wrote to the Corinthians, “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? Cor. 10:16
Of course, These are rhetorical questions and our answer ought to be a resounding, “Yes”!
St. Paul believed that the Eucharistic elements had the power of life and death. We ought to heed his words and exercise caution. He writes, “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat the bread and drink the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves. For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died” 1 Cor. 11:27-30.
Clearly there is more going on in Communion in Paul’s view than a mere symbolic act of remembrance.
This is a Test! Believe me ~ Your eternal soul depends on you getting the correct answer! May God open your eyes to the truth.
“Eat me. I am the bread of the strong. But you will not transform me and make me part of you. Rather, I will transform you and make you part of ME”- St Augustine
God Bless**
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VARC
Guest
Nice rant. So would you exclude the Ecumenical Patriarch from having valid sacraments because he isn’t in the “real church” (by which I assume you mean Roman Catholic Church)? Your own pope doesn’t even take that position.
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RobGentner
Guest
**Short answer again - No!
Because they are part of the" real church". You assume wrong my foolish friend!
My “rant” must not have been effective ~ obviously you even didn’t bother to read the “long” answer. Otherwise you wouldn’t ask this stupid question because the answer was already supplied! Hint: it was said in the previous ‘rant’ after “But, remember that before 1517AD” …
That actually mean the Catholic Church (Christians) Roman and all other real “Catholic” churches. Another Hint. They started 2,000 years ago not within the past 500 or less years!
The question is whether apostolic succesion alone is enough for valid scaraments/mysteries. The answer is still No! Religions and People would like the Catholic Church have to continue to follow the real teachings of Jesus. Luther lost his personal ability to give valid communion when he stopped obeying God and His church.Churches that refuse to obey the real church, Protestants lost their apostolic succesion, if they ever had it when thay fell away! Understand??
Our church doesn’t take a position against real believers! Why would we? They are really saved! We all have the simular beliefs, just different traditions. The Eastern Catholic Churches, together with the other Churches of the East, are living witnesses of the traditions that date back through the Fathers to the Apostles (cf. Orientalium Ecclesiarum, n. 1); their tradition is “part of the divinely revealed heritage of the universal Church” (ibid.). They are not the “false” brethren that practice herecies developed through the assistance of Satain since 1517.
Do you know that the catholic church doesn’t even take a position against false believers? We say that they are christians who are not fully in communication with the real church that will save their souls! We do tell them that their eternal souls are in danger and that only through the graces of the “real” church do they have any hope of going to heaven. We even say non-believers can be saved! Jesus gave us that authority.
Oh by the way my friend, if you even bothered to read this far. I did not rant! Although my monologue was long, what I said was well-researched and calmly presented. Unlike some people, I did not ramble, repeat nonsense or insult anyone. I spoke only the truth. I explained exactly why the other “so called” christian denominations are false churches. They are imitation and counterfeit versions of the real church. To speak aggressively about something is not to rant. Take your own tangent, now that could be considered ranting by some readers. Why? Because you fill your post with rambling, repeating utter nonsense and presenting it as fact. VARC, I personally, rather say you are misinformed and need to do some real research.
God Bless**
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notsmart
Guest
And the catholics here who voted for Obama?
Are they part of the “real church”?
I say they are morally and spiritually bankrupt. And, if they recieve communion, they are spitting on Christ.
Are they part of the “real church”?
I say they are morally and spiritually bankrupt. And, if they recieve communion, they are spitting on Christ.
Short answer again - No! Because they are part of the" real church". You assume wrong my foolish friend!. My “rant” must not have been efective ~ you even didn’t bother to read the “long” answer. Otherwise you wouldn’t ask stupid questions because the answer was already supplied! Hint it was said in the previous ‘rant’ after "But, remember that before 1517AD" …
I actually mean the Catholic Church (Christians) Roman and all other real “Catholic” churches. Another Hint. They started 2,000 years ago not within the past 500 or less years!
Our church doesn’t take a position against real believers! Why would we? We all have the simular beliefs, just different traditions. The Eastern Catholic Churches, together with the other Churches of the East, are living witnesses of the traditions that date back through the Fathers to the Apostles (cf. Orientalium Ecclesiarum, n. 1); their tradition is “part of the divinely revealed heritage of the universal Church” (ibid.).
They are not “false” brethren that practice herecies developed through the assistance of Satain since 1517.
Our church doesn’t even take a position against false believers or even non- believers. We say that they are christians who are not fully in communication with the real church that will save their souls! We do tell them that their eternal souls are in danger and that only through the graces of the “real” church do they have any hope of going to heaven. Jesus gave us that authority.
Oh by the way my friend, if you even bothered to read this far. I did not rant! Although my monologue was long, what I said was well-researched and calmly presented. I did not, like some people ramble or repeat nonsense or insult anyone. I spoke only the truth. I explained exactly why the other so called christian denominations are false churches. Imitations and counterfeit versions of the real church. To speak aggressively about something is not to rant. Take your own tangent, now that could be considered ranting by some readers. Why? Because you fill your post with rambling and repeating utter nonsense and presenting it as fact. VARC, I rather say you are misinformed and need to do research.
God Bless
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RobGentner
Guest
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I say “God Bless America”. As Jesus says “Let Him Who is without sin cast the first stone…” The Catholics that voted for Obama have, in my personal** opinion, committed a sin. I personally must not vote for anyone what will not help stop the murder of children. If I had voted for Obama, I would have to go to confession before I could receive communion. But I would have to be truly sorry for my “sin” to receive absolution.
Do you know that our church teaches, correctly, that if you do not “know” something is a sin, than for “You” it isn’t? You must have personal knowledge that the thing you are doing is against God’s will. That is why the more we know the harsher we will be judged.
By your statement, don’t you realize that you are judging their hearts based on your own personal beliefs? That really isn’t fair. Examine your own heart my friend. Is there true love there? Is there compassion for those misguided people? If and when they “discover” that they committed the sin, that we both know they did, then they must confess and obtain absolution before they could again receive communion. Women who have even committed abortion receive communion not realizing that they committed a sin. When they do the shame should make them confess and receive the grace of God and His healing Love. If in their heart of heart they are guiltless who are we to judge. Boy it must really be hard being God don’t you think?
God Bless,
You are smart my friend, maybe not kind ,but certainly not “notsmart”!
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notsmart
Guest
I am basing my statements on the CCC, to which I agree with fully.
And, my comments were about catholics who FIGHT their “right” to vote Obama. Not the ones who are not even here to present a thought or defense. Some are fighting that they are in the right to do this, and presenting themselves as not being uneducated in the faith. So, with the 3 conditions for mortal sin, and they claim to know their faith, and try to use every single argument and argue for hours on end about it, I am just saying…
And, my comments were about catholics who FIGHT their “right” to vote Obama. Not the ones who are not even here to present a thought or defense. Some are fighting that they are in the right to do this, and presenting themselves as not being uneducated in the faith. So, with the 3 conditions for mortal sin, and they claim to know their faith, and try to use every single argument and argue for hours on end about it, I am just saying…
**
I say “God Bless America”. As Jesus says “Let Him Who is without sin cast the first stone…” The Catholics that voted for Obama have, in my personal** opinion, committed a sin. I personally must not vote for anyone what will not help stop the murder of children. If I had voted for Obama, I would have to go to confession before I could receive communion. But I would have to be truly sorry for my “sin” to receive absolution.
Do you know that our church teaches, correctly, that if you do not “know” something is a sin, than for “You” it isn’t? You must have personal knowledge that the thing you are doing is against God’s will. That is why the more we know the harsher we will be judged.
By your statement, don’t you realize that you are judging their hearts based on your own personal beliefs? That really isn’t fair. Examine your own heart my friend. Is there true love there? Is there compassion for those misguided people? If and when they “discover” that they committed the sin, that we both know they did, then they must confess and obtain absolution before they could again receive communion. Women who have even committed abortion receive communion not realizing that they committed a sin. When they do the shame should make them confess and receive the grace of God and His healing Love. If in their heart of heart they are guiltless who are we to judge. Boy it must really be hard being God don’t you think?
God Bless,
You are smart my friend, maybe not kind ,but certainly not “notsmart”!
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RobGentner
Guest
**I am basing my statements on the CCC, to which I agree with fully.
And, my comments were about catholics who FIGHT their “right” to vote Obama. Not the ones who are not even here to present a thought or defense. Some are fighting that they are in the right to do this, and presenting themselves as not being uneducated in the faith. So, with the 3 conditions for mortal sin, and they claim to know their faith, and try to use every single argument and argue for hours on end about it, I am just saying…
Not, I actually understand. But my statements still stand.
Lets just say the devil won this round! But the fight isn’t over. We have prayer on our side!
Wouldn’t be great if Obama put an end to abortion? He could you know! God made the Pharaoh change his mind! It took 7 plagues. We have: AIDS, Homosexual marriages, Economic problems, Democratic Congress and now President. That is 5 that I can think of
only two more to go??? God Bless, remember to love your brother!
**- Status