Are we all the "offspring" of Mary? How do Protestants interpret this verse?
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CAS64
Guest
Oh my God. This is pure blasphemy. You really need to watch it. Jesus Christ alone is the author of life and the author and finisher of Salvation. Shame on you!!
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Correction: man did.
If we needed a mother, Paul could have said so when speaking of the adoption of Christians as sons of God. He did not.
The nearest (which is not near at all) that Christians have to a mother is the Holy Spirit - Mary can in any case not be the mother of Christians, because the argument you make requires her to be co-equal with the Father. Even Catholics don’t go* that* far. (Some Poles might - Poland gave us the Mariavites, & it gave us Kolbeism
.)So don’t be afraid to call Virgin Mary MOTHER, Jesus Christ did, and so do I!
The Woman is not the Church, we are the church! So how can we be our own Mother, it don’t make sense. The Woman is Virgin Mary and yes we through the Holy Spirit our her offsprings, and we through the Holy Spirit have a MOTHER and she is called MARY! The family in heaven is not a Broken one.
Does Jesus Christ in heaven call Virgin Mary Mother? …If you answered YES, then we shall also.
If you answered NO, then you are saying that Jesus Christ does not honor His Mother that only means that Jesus Christ broke a Commandment of his Father. Now this will never happen.
Ufamtobie He is not dependent on His mother - she is very definitely dependent on Him. This is what “apron-strings Mariology” forgets
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Semper_Fi_1
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The “woman” is Jerusalem, according to footnotes of most Catholic bibles. Not much interpretation there needed.
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guanophore
Guest
Jesus only founded one Church. Everyone belonging to it was Catholic (up until groups began to split off from her). The first major split occurred un 1054, and was due, as have been all those since, to the sinfulness of people in the Church.
All those who wrote the NT books were Catholic in faith. How do we know this? The Catholic church has not only preserved the history of her faith, but has followed the Apostolic command to preserve the traditions, whethey they were in writing or in speech. I encourage you to read the early fathers, who all espoused the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that was given to them by the Apostles.
Before I did this myself, I was like you, and had no clue what history had transpired from that time until this (except for some of the infamy of Catholics in Europe that precipitated the Reformation).
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. Ignatius to Smyrna ch 8 110 AD
St. Iggy was from Antioch, a disciple who grew up in that thriving community where they were “first called Christians”. This community had the benefit of Apostolic Teaching by Peter, Paul and John, and maybe others as well. He was able to hear the teaching of Apostle John along with his friend Polycarp (another good early father read), who was a disciple of John the Apostle. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that the fell away from the faith by the year 110, it is quite clear from this writing that the Church was, and is, Catholic.
These disciples of the Apostles all believed that we are the spiritual offspring of Mary, because we are those who follow the commandments of her Son.
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guanophore
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I agree with you that the Scriptural references are thin. I do not think any of the Marian doctrines can be “proved” with Scripture. This is not a problem for Catholics, since we do not derive our doctrine this way. All of the Teachings f the Catholic Church came directly from Christ, and were whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. We see our faith reflected and supported there, but the pages are not the Source, Jesus is our Source.
I can see your point. This is not a problem for Catholics, since we do not derive our doctrine from the pages, and we do not believe that Jesus is confined to the book. We believe that the fullness of God’s revelation is present in the Church, both in the Holy Tradition and the Holy Scripture.
Those who are separated from the Apostolic Tradition really have little choice but to replace the teaching authority appointed by Christ with something else (Scripture). this, in itself is going “way further than the scripture” which never speaks of itself as being the Sole or final authority in matters of faith. It is curious that most Protestants espouse this extrabiblical doctrine, yet castigate Catholics when they espouse doctrines that do not emanate from scripture.
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Good_Fella
Guest
Because Mary is the new Eve - the spiritual “mother of all the living”.
*The Lord God then built up into into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man, the man said: "This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this one shall be called **‘woman’ *, for out of ‘her man’ this one has been taken.
Genesis 2, 22-23
So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit. But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven. As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.
1 Corinthians 15, 45-49
For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8, 29
The man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have produced a man with the help of the Lord.”
Genesis 4, 1
"Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.The Holy Spirit will come upon you,* and the power of the Most High will overshadow you**. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."*
Luke 1, 31,35
Protestants who object to the Eve-Mary parallel argue that the Virgin Mary was the mother of the new Adam and not his wife. So this typology falls apart in their estimation. However, Mary is the mother of the divine Person Jesus Christ in his human nature, and the bride (“wife”) of Christ in his divine nature. Israel and the Church are personified as a woman in Revelation 12 in allusion to their being a corporate type of new Eve. Our Blessed Mother is represented as a personal type of new Eve in the spirit. I personally believe that it was Mary herself whom John envisioned in heaven, for the role of Israel and the Church, the new Jerusalem, are fulfilled in her person as Daughter Zion. The Judeo-Christians of apostolic time certainly believed this to be true of Mary even before Luke wrote his gospel in acknowledgement of Sacred Tradition.
Shout for joy, O daughter Zion! Sing joyfully, O Isreal! Be glad and exult with all your heart, o daughter Jerusalem! The Lord has removed his judgment against you, he has turned away your enemies; the King of Israel, the Lord is in your midst, you have no further misfortune to fear. The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty savior.
*Zephaniah 3, 14-15, 17 *
And coming to her he said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.”
Luke 1, 28, 30-31
As the bride of Christ, Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. For the Holy Trinity is one undivided God. Mary conceived and bore Jesus, the Son of God, the firstborn of many brothers by the power of the Holy Spirit who overshadowed her. Since Jesus is our brother, the new Adam, and we have been reborn in the Spirit in him, we are the offspring of the* spiritual mother of all the living*. She who has helped save us from sin and death which were wrought by Eve’s involvement.
- “I will put enmity between you and the** woman**.”*
Genesis 3, 15
1 Corinthians 11, 12
Pax Christu :harp:
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Tomster
Guest
Perhaps my introductory piece on this thread was a little to rich for your thought process. Allow me to back up and try to simplify things for you.
Would it be correct to say that Mary is the Mother of God?
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guanophore
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It would indeed, Tomster! However, you will not get the expected arguement form CAS64 on this, since his disrespectful behavior and attitude here have resulted in negative consequences.
I am continually amazed at how the ancient heresies keep rearing their ugly heads.
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Tomster
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:doh2:
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Good_Fella
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It would be incorrect if Jesus weren’t a divine Person.
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Good_Fella
Guest
Paul’s epistles are occasional pastoral letters addressed to particular communities concerned with specific primary issues of faith. Not everything he preached orally was put down in writing. Paul doesn’t mention the virgin birth in any of his letters. But I’m sure he believed in this miraculous event and preached it universally.
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
2 Thessalonians 2, 15
Christianity originates from Jesus Christ, not Paul, as Muslims contend, and our Lord certainly felt that his disciples needed a spiritual mother in the form of a human creature to nurture them in their pilgrimage of faith by her exemplary spirituality now that Eve, the mother of all the living, no longer had any spiritual life to give us on account of her faithlessness and disobedience. When Jesus had essentially declared that his blessed mother was to be the new spiritual mother of all the living in place of the woman Eve, who had just biological life to give us by her transgression, he was honoring her Fiat at the Annunciation, without which the incarnation could not have taken place for our redemption unless God had preordained otherwise. Mary is our spiritual mother - the new Eve - by having conceived and borne our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the firstfruit of many brothers, in a spirit of true faith and love (Rom 8:29). As an antidote to the effects wrought by Adam’s partaking of the forbidden fruit which was offered to him by Eve, our Blessed Mother has given us the fruit of redemption, that is her divine Son who hung from a tree for our sins.
“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42
When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold your mother.”
John 19, 26-27
From all eternity God ordained that a woman together with a man transmit spiritual life to their descendants. Because of Adam and Eve’s transgression and fall from grace, our original parents no longer had spiritual life to give us. Mankind fell from grace when Adam partook of the forbidden fruit offered him by his wife Eve. Mankind was reconciled with God when Jesus accepted the cup that was offered him on our behalf by the Father initially through the solicitation of a woman: “They have no wine.”
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”
Matthew 26, 27-28
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory. For the wedding day of the Lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready. Then the angel said to me, “Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb.”
Revelation 19, 7,9
How on earth do you reach that conclusion?
Mary is our spiritual mother by virtue of our divine Lord’s human nature which he took from her by the power of the Holy Spirit to save us from sin and death. Jesus can rightly be called a brother of ours since he partook of the same nature of ours and of our flesh and blood having been made of a woman (Gal 4:4). He allied himself with us so that he could redeem us by the expiation of our sins as our loving and faithful high priest (Heb 2: 16-17). And if Jesus is our brother, then naturally Mary is our spiritual mother and spouse of the Holy Spirit - the active separate principle behind the generation of the Son of Man, in the words of Aquinas: the bride of Christ, the new Adam, in his divine nature.He who consecrates and those who are being consecrated all have one origin. Therefore, he is not ashamed to call them "brothers," saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers, in the midst of the assembly I will praise you,” and again: “I will put my trust in him”, and again: “Behold, I and the children God has given me.” Now that the children share in blood and flesh, he likewise shared in them, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil, and free those who through fear of death had been subject to the slavery of sin.
Hebrews 2, 11-15
Pax Christu :harp:
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Tomster
Guest
It is amazing isn’t it? A lot of it has to do with our non-Catholic brethren not really knowing who Jesus is. Is He a human person or not? Is He God or not? Is He both, then how? These are questions they are not prepared to answer because their theology on the matter is very, very limited. As all Catholics know very well our brethren’s reliance on scripture alone and a rejection of an authoritative magisterium has led them to believe many erroneous things, Nestorianism for one.
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Tomster
Guest
God is not satisfied with half measures; He impresses the mark of completeness on all His works. He must have stamped this mark in particular on His two masterpieces, Christ and Mary. It was fitting, therefore - it was almost necessary - that God, if He did not wish to stop halfway, should make of the Mother of Christ the Mother of all those who form one body with Christ. This was especially true in view of the fact that Mary had given human nature to the Son of God precisely that He might become the head of the human race.The trouble with exaggerations about the BVM is that they maker her hateful - she becomes a rival to Christ. That makes her his enemy
I fail to see where this makes Mary hateful, a rival of Christ and His enemy.
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Tomster
Guest
Then I take it you believe that Mary gave birth to God, making her the Mother of God?
It is interesting that some may say that Jesus took only His body and not His divinity from Mary. This objection would be valid if this were merely a moral union, such as Nestorius posited, but not when the union is substantial. Since the body which she formed was, from the very first instance, the body of God, Mary herself became the Mother of God. We take only our bodies from our own mothers, yet are we not in all reality their children?
It is true that the conception of a human body calls naturally for the creation and infusion of the soul, while the conception which took place in Mary does not call naturally for the union of the Son of God with the humanity which the Blessed Virgin conceived. It does not call for it naturally, but it does call for it supernaturally, in a manner much more sublime and more worthy of God and of Mary than anything that takes place in the natural order. For it was a conception prepared for by unique virtues and privileges; it was a virginal conception which befitted only God; it was produced by the Holy Spirit, and according to the explanation of the angel, would make the very Son of God the son of Mary; the Blessed Virgin consented to it only after having received the promise that this conception would have the birth of God as its term.
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Tomster
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Just for discussion. please explain what you mean by “god-bearer.”
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Good_Fella
Guest
Paul refers to Mary in his letter to the Galatians:
“made of a woman”
And he alludes to her in his first letter to the Corinthians:
“even so is the man also of a** woman**”
Pax Christu :harp:
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Hercules253
Guest
I think the way to solve this is that the woman in Revelation is not Mary but actually Israel and the offspring are referring to Christians.
It’s very clear that the stars symbolizes the 12 tribes just like it did in Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37:9-11
In Isaiah 66: 7-10, Isaiah depicts Jerusalem, Israel as a woman going into labor and delivering a “son”
- 7 “Before she goes into labor,
she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.
8 Who has ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.
9 Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery?” says the LORD.
“Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery?” says your God.
10 "Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her,
all you who love her;
rejoice greatly with her,
all you who mourn over her. *
*Why do you now cry aloud—
have you no king?
Has your counselor perished,
that pain seizes you like that of a woman in labor?
10 Writhe in agony, O Daughter of Zion,
like a woman in labor,
for now you must leave the city
to camp in the open field.
You will go to Babylon;
there you will be rescued.
There the LORD will redeem you
out of the hand of your enemies. *
Reading the rest of the chapter, we see that part of God’s plan was to have a “ruler out of Bethlehem, Israel”. This is recapping how Israel will struggle but give birth to the Messiah.
Later on in Revelation 12:14, the woman is then saved by being carried by “Eagle’s Wings” into the wild, away from the Red Dragon’s (Satan/Devil) reach.
In Exodus 19, God tells Moses:
"This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.
This is symbolizes refuge on how God rescued Israel from Egypt and into the wild. Once again, this is another verse indicating Israel in a feminine terms and paralleling with Revelation to being rescued with Eagle’s wings.
So if the woman in Revelation 12 was actually Israel, it would make perfect sense. I don’t know and I could be wrong about all of this.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello Semper Fi,
Thank you for your post.
As helpful as Bible footnotes may be, they do not explain all things Catholic… or all Catholic beliefs surrounding, or based in part on a Bible verse.
For example, the Catholic belief in the Coronation of Mary is based in part on Revelation 12.
The above quote came from an excellent Catholic Answers article on this subject, titled - THE WOMAN OF REVELATION 12… More here.
1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child…
(4) Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
*5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. *
6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
*17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. *
*(Revelation 12 - NAB 12) *
*
Catholic Art and Revelation 12 -
http://www.mqhchurch.net/images/mary_queen_of_heaven1.jpg
http://aboutreligiousart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/immaculateconception1.jpg
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
http://www.saintsgalore.com/images/QueenMary01.jpg
http://66.199.135.31/s/mzig/products/SJ-5-1.400x400.jpg
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