Are we too easy on suicide victims?

[Ben_Sinner]

I still ask…

What amount of mental stress/instability is sufficient?

Alot of times, mortal sin is the result of mental distress.

-A homosexual has a disordered condition they can’t help. If he/she intentionally lusts after the same sex, are they any less culpable?

-A rapist has uncontrollable anger, If he/she rapes someone, are they any less culpable?

-A gambler has a problem of impulsiveness, If they blow all their money, are they any less culpable?

-A serial killer is void of emotion, which causes them to think irrationality at times, If they murder people, are they any less culpable?

-A pedophile has a disordered attraction to children that distorts their rationality, if they molest a child, are they any less culpable.

-Someone who masturbates is being attacked by raging hormones, if they decided to look up porn and masturbate, are they any less culpable?

Most sins are caused by some form of mental or physical weakness. That doesn’t mean that the person isn’t culpable.

The conditions of mortal sin are not subjective. Once we are aware of them, then we are culpable of following them whether they are significant to us or not.

 

[WilliamOK]

No sane person would commit suicide. You have to be mentally ill and thus wouldn’t be culpable

So when is suicide a mortal sin then?

Its listed in the CCC as one for a reason.

There has to be a line. Mentally ill doesn’t always mean that people lose their free will.

Where is the line when its mortal and when it isn’t?

Thank you Ben for bringing up this important topic. Suicide is in fact a mortal sin. If your last act on earth is killing somebody - even if that somebody is yourself - God is definitely not going to be pleased with that. Rephrase or present that information as tactfully as possible of course, or even remain silent about it if you think the time is not right to mention it in a certain situation, but let’s not completely sweep it under the rug and vilify anybody who brings it up, especially here in a theoretical venue which is where one would think such ideas should be explored.

I think it is important to keep in mind both those who have already tried, or died from suicide, AS WELL AS those who are here in the land of the living and dealing with temptations to suicide. That second group often gets glossed over in the emotional response to the tragedy of the one who died. Suicide is already too common and there are social movements afoot, such as in assisted suicide, to not only relax the prohibition against it, but to assist people toward it. So we have to start forging a coherent message to counter the direction society is going.

I found the suggestions below online. They apply to how the media covers suicide in the newspaper and such. But I think we may be able to appropriate some of the ideas ourselves in our more personal situations when discussing or pondering the matter. These are suggestions from an organization that specializes in suicide prevention and has some study of the matter. This organization looks reputable. But if you know of a better organization, or see something wrong with their approach, please feel to offer constructive criticism or alternative sources of information. But I would hope we could be logical and calm, rather than overly emotional since that shuts down the discussion of this important topic.

Suggestions for the media
afsp.org/news-events/for-the-media

Recommendations for Reporting on Suicide
afsp.org/content/download/1066/16814/file/recommendations.pdf

Top bullet points from the PDF on the above page:

• More than 50 research studies worldwide have found that certain types of news coverage can increase the likelihood of suicide in vulnerable individuals. The magnitude of the increase is related to the amount, duration and prominence of coverage.
• Risk of additional suicides increases when the story explicitly describes the suicide method, uses dramatic/graphic headlines or images, and repeated/extensive coverage sensationalizes or glamorizes a death.
• Covering suicide carefully, even briefly, can change public misperceptions and correct myths, which can encourage those who are vulnerable or at risk to seek help.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I still ask…

What amount of mental stress/instability is sufficient?

(…)

I don’t know if you read my post but I thought my use of the word “severe” was pretty straightforward.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Thank you Ben for bringing up this important topic. **Suicide is in fact a mortal sin.
**
(…)

If this is true

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

then your above statement is not. The sanctity of human life will make any acts contrary to it a grave matter, but not always mortal sin.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

I don’t know if you read my post but I thought my use of the word “severe” was pretty straightforward.

You compared depression to a migraine headache. Thats not a good example.

I get alot of migraine headaces, including the severe kind, this didn’t cause me to disregard my religous beliefs in the middle of one of them no matter how much pain I was in.

Look at the example of the saints who suffered from all kinds of horrible physical and mental calamities (including depresssion). They did not use that as a reason to compromise the will of God.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

I understand what you are saying, these things can cause us to push things aside and focus on the horror they are afflicted by, but we are still called to endure to the end and do the will of God.

We still have to use what willpower we have left to fight back and make sure we don’t fall into any sin.

Heck, St. Augustine said it would be better to let someone die than to tell a lie to them that would save their life. Suicide is alot more serious than a lie.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

You compared depression to a migraine headache.
Thats not a good example.

To you maybe. It’s my pain, dude; I can do what I want. I was speaking from experience using examples of physical pain and emotional pain and how both resulted in my not thinking clearly. Migraine pain didn’t exactly make me suicidal, but mainly because I literally thought I was going to die anyway.

I get alot of migraine headaces, including the severe kind, this didn’t cause me to disregard my religous beliefs in the middle of one of them no matter how much pain I was in.

In the midst of a migraine I wasn’t able to form thoughts about self care let alone religious beliefs. The only reason I get through them, I think, is that if I knew one was coming on I could take painkillers and get to a dark room to ride it out. But there is a “point of no return” and if I ignore the symptoms I get to the point I can’t even think enough to take a tylenol.

Look at the example of the saints who suffered from all kinds of horrible physical and mental calamities (including depresssion). They did not use that as a reason to compromise the will of God.

Having a strong faith in God does help one through trials. However, most people have weak (perhaps a new believer) to middling faith or no faith at all. Most of us are not saints. I doubt your line of thinking brings hope much to survivors or those who still live with depression. Anyone who tried to use that kind of reasoning around me during my worst times would have to be banned from being around me so i don’t have one more reminder of how much I suck at life.

 

[WilliamOK]

If this is true

then your above statement is not. The sanctity of human life will make any acts contrary to it a grave matter, but not always mortal sin.

You are correct too, at least in a way. We are talking past each other because we are each understanding the terminology “mortal sin” in a slightly different way. This happens a lot so let’s try to understand each other, even if we don’t end up agreeing.

What is generally meant by “mortal sin” is that a sin is objectively grave. It is not possible for a human being to know the subjective state of a sinner’s mind, so we can never know whether a sin is truly a mortal sin in terms of the person actually being culpable or perhaps not culpable because of an inability to make a free and rational choice, or through ignorance, etc. These things are internal to the sinner’s mind and only truly known by God.

To adhere strictly to your definition of mortal sin would mean that we could never even use the term “mortal sin” in connection with an action, since knowing the person’s internal state of mind is impossible except for God. Most people say things like “murder is a mortal sin”, meaning it is mortal under the normal conditions specified by the church and that is the same way that I meant that suicide is a mortal sin. And that is actually the normal way I have always heard Catholics speak of mortal sin. And that is the way I will continue to use it, so please be advised that is what I mean when I say it, and probably what most other Catholics mean when they say it too.

 

[DeniseNY]

I still ask…

What amount of mental stress/instability is sufficient?

Alot of times, mortal sin is the result of mental distress.

-A homosexual has a disordered condition they can’t help. If he/she intentionally lusts after the same sex, are they any less culpable?

-A rapist has uncontrollable anger, If he/she rapes someone, are they any less culpable?

-A gambler has a problem of impulsiveness, If they blow all their money, are they any less culpable?

-A serial killer is void of emotion, which causes them to think irrationality at times, If they murder people, are they any less culpable?

-A pedophile has a disordered attraction to children that distorts their rationality, if they molest a child, are they any less culpable.

-Someone who masturbates is being attacked by raging hormones, if they decided to look up porn and masturbate, are they any less culpable?

Most sins are caused by some form of mental or physical weakness. That doesn’t mean that the person isn’t culpable.

The conditions of mortal sin are not subjective. Once we are aware of them, then we are culpable of following them whether they are significant to us or not.

You’re still missing what that part of the catechism says. It IS subjective, hence the phrase “can diminish”. Yet, you continue to look for ways to circument thjs. It’s not for anyone other than God to make the determination as to what happens to a person’s soul. No one other than God can judge the sum of a person’s life based on one fact about them - their suicide. There’s no ruler or yardstick that can be used to measure someone’s pain and anguish. You seem to want but there just isn’t.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

You’re still missing what that part of the catechism says. It IS subjective, hence the phrase “can diminish”. Yet, you continue to look for ways to circument thjs. It’s not for anyone other than God to make the determination as to what happens to a person’s soul. No one other than God can judge the sum of a person’s life based on one fact about them - their suicide. There’s no ruler or yardstick that can be used to measure someone’s pain and anguish. You seem to want but there just isn’t.

So we have no basis on what actions we commit are considered mortal sin? If you suffer from a calamity, its a game of chance since for all you know, you couldn’t be thinking clearly.

Even if I had full knowledge of a grave sin I’m going to commit and deliberately do it anyway, I shouldn’t be too concerned that I just committed a mortal sin?

Can diminish does not always mean it Will diminish.

 

[WilliamOK]

You’re still missing what that part of the catechism says. It IS subjective, hence the phrase “can diminish”. Yet, you continue to look for ways to circument thjs. It’s not for anyone other than God to make the determination as to what happens to a person’s soul. No one other than God can judge the sum of a person’s life based on one fact about them - their suicide. There’s no ruler or yardstick that can be used to measure someone’s pain and anguish. You seem to want but there just isn’t.

The same can be said of murder, or any other grave sin. The father of a girl who was raped might want to kill the rapist who got found innocent in court. God might even understand that kind of rage and forgive the man for it. Yet we would not say never warn a murderer of the eternal consequences of what he is about to do. God CAN diminish one’s guilt does not mean God WILL diminish one’s guilt. So I personally think we should find some tactful way, if possible, to caution people who are suicidal. Find some tactful way, if we can, to let them know that it would be a very serious sin.

Or, better yet, educate people BEFORE they even get to that point. Like right here. We can educate each other about the sinfulness of suicide. Some people here who aren’t even suicidal seem to be resisting the truth of the sinfulness of suicide. I think that’s a problem.

 

[DeniseNY]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=196213

The Church recognizes that most people commit suicide to stop the pain–whether is be physical or psychological. Of the two the latter can be the most horrendous.

The instinct for self preservation is so basic, that one’s misery must be quite extreme to counter it by the taking of one’ s very life. Yes it is very possible that culpability can be completely mitigated

 

[WilliamOK]

Maybe the problem is the title of the thread.

Are we too easy on suicide victims? makes it sound like we are coming down on the suicidal person, when what I think Ben and I are saying is we need to be clear about the morality of the issue. And not just for the one who is suicidal, but for those around him and everybody in the church who still doesn’t seem to get it because of an emotional sympathy, and rightly so, for the suicidal person. But we shouldn’t let the emotion cloud our judgment.

 

[WilliamOK]

The Church recognizes that most people commit suicide to stop the pain–whether is be physical or psychological. Of the two the latter can be the most horrendous.

The instinct for self preservation is so basic, that one’s misery must be quite extreme to counter it by the taking of one’ s very life. Yes it is very possible that culpability can be completely mitigated
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=196213

I agree it is very possible. But it is hard to know how PROBABLE that is. Only God knows that, and that is why we must be clear and honest about the danger you risk when you attempt suicide. You’re still resisting that. Why?

 

[Ben_Sinner]

In the midst of a migraine I wasn’t able to form thoughts about self care let alone religious beliefs.

You didn’t have knowledge of religious beliefs. That automatically takes #2 out, so you are not culpable.

I’m talking about people who KNOW something is gravely wrong, and do it anyway…I’m still having trouble understanding why people can’t consider that a mortal sin.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

…new thoughts begin to creep in…

I will then start having thoughts like : "Did you hear that Ben! You are psychologially distressed! Go ahead and kill yourself now! You will be fine! You will avoid hell! There is a chance you won’t now!

These thoughts can be terrifying, and this is from somebody who doesn’t seriously entertain these thoughts. I can’t imagine how someone who actually suffers from suicidal thoughts thinks when they see comments like that!

Such thoughts aren’t terrifying; they sound like sweet reason. I know this from past personal experience.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Such thoughts aren’t terrifying; they sound like sweet reason. I know this from past personal experience.

Yup. :sad_yes:

 

[Ben_Sinner]

I agree it is very possible. But it is hard to know how PROBABLE that is. Only God knows that, and that is why we must be clear and honest about the danger you risk when you attempt suicide. You’re still resisting that. Why?

And it could cause a depressed person to question their free will, which is scary in itself too.

 

[DeniseNY]

You didn’t have knowledge of religious beliefs. That automatically takes #2 out, so you are not culpable.

I’m talking about people who KNOW something is gravely wrong, and do it anyway…I’m still having trouble understanding why people can’t consider that a mortal sin.

They may know it’s a mortal sin, but I’m still having trouble understanding why you don’t get that people who are truly suicidal are not in a rational state of mind and therefore do not act rationally:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=693026&highlight=suicide#post693026

We cannot know with certainty whether a suicide victim goes to hell or heaven (possibly by way of purgatory). Suicide certainly is grave matter but to be culpable of mortal sin one must commit a grave act with deliberate consent and full knowledge of its gravity. A** person who commits suicide is likely not in a healthy state of mind and, therefore, may not be fully culpable**. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) explains, “Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide” (CCC 2282).

Even if one is fully culpable, God may still provide a way of salvation for them. The Catechism teaches, “By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance” (CCC 2283).

No one here is saying “yeah, it’s good. Go ahead and kill yourself, God will automatically forgive you.”.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

You didn’t have knowledge of religious beliefs. That automatically takes #2 out, so you are not culpable.

But I did have knowledge; those beliefs were somewhere in my brain. You don’t seem to be able to comprehend severely distorted thinking; perhaps you haven’t experienced it or only experienced it briefly.

I’m talking about people who KNOW something is gravely wrong, and do it anyway…I’m still having trouble understanding why people can’t consider that a mortal sin.

You can consider that mortal sin. But it’s doubtful that you will have the knowledge whether or not someone thinking about that it in the moment.

For centuries the church taught that someone who commit suicide went to hell or more accurately that it was a grave matter. The church hasn’t changed the teaching but has a more nuanced understanding. It was only a few decades ago that most, if not all, Catholics would have said that people who commit suicide went to hell because it was a mortal sin. Many (too many) still understand church teaching this way judging by the questions on this forum and others, and comments elsewhere.

Thankfully, the church can give a more nuanced answer when people ask about suicide; those that are asking are survivors concerned about the soul of a loved one. The church give us hope and we can pray for that soul in purgatory. How many souls in purgatory were never prayed for because they weren’t allowed a Catholic funeral and no one prayed for their soul because it was thought they were in hell. Do you really want to go backwards to that?