Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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In almost every one of my posts on this thread, I have brought up the corollary prinicple of the husband loving his wife as Christ loved His Church for Which He laid down His life! The two principles go together–they cannot be separated, and yet so many people look at one and totally ignore the fact that the other even exists!
That’s because obedience is easy to define but ‘love’ is more ambiguous.

For instance, let’s say a man says that he loves his wife and kids and actually believes that. But after work he gets drunk at the bar every night and then goes home and beats those same people.

Now does he really love them or not?
Does it matter?

Moreover, the law and culture have often demanded that wives obey their husbands (giving husbands substantial legal and social power over their wives) but virtually no laws anywhere demand that a man love his wife.
 
Maybe you should leave your own ambition and determination at the door and humble yourself to the teachings of the Church.
**
That said, with the kind of attitude you have, you will certainly be the dominating force in your marriage. Not because you are stronger than a strong male, but because no good strong morally adherent Catholic male would want a wife that refuses to follow the teachings of the Church, St. Paul, and all the Saints, refuses to accept God’s place as eternal King and His appointment of man as the head of YOU. You’ll instead find a weak male who will submit to you and you will probably end up living a perfectly happy life knowing that you’re in control.**

But by maintaining an attitude of female empowerment, you will actually end up with less than what you could have, and will someday question your rebellion against Natural Law, the teachings of the Saints, and above all your submission to the disorder of the modern world.
I am not a Catholic male, but I am a man, so I would like to say:

I would not want to marry a doormat.
A woman who never argued, always agreed with me, and always let me have my way would frankly bore me after a while. I would want my wife to be a partner, not a slave or servant. With a doormat all I might be attracted to is her looks (and I know many other guys who feel the same way).
 
The Bible makes pretty clear it’s instruction on how to live, and indeed it specifically says (as has been repeated over and over in this topic) “Wives submit to your husbands.” There is no need to try to muddle the teaching as it is abundantly clear, and any attempts to weasel ones way around it will ultimately fail.
It also says ‘slaves obey your masters.’
Should we respect that teaching too:rolleyes:
 
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Originally Posted by LucyLight
This is just wishful thinking on your part. I’ll go with Pope John Paul II over you

A lot of the official documents Pope John Paul II released concerning women stressed their equal value and dignity (in relation to men). He also wrote about how it was unfair to reduce them to servitude.

Many people actually.
In the modern era the Muslims are probably the most shameless about it.
Saying that a women’s worth is literally half that of a man’s.
That’s because obedience is easy to define but ‘love’ is more ambiguous.

For instance, let’s say a man says that he loves his wife and kids and actually believes that. But after work he gets drunk at the bar every night and then goes home and beats those same people.

Now does he really love them or not?
Does it matter?

Moreover, the law and culture have often demanded that wives obey their husbands (giving husbands substantial legal and social power over their wives) but virtually no laws anywhere demand that a man love his wife.
The problem is that you are looking at this as interpreted by any old person: Moslems? Really? how much time do they spend reading the Bible?

The only interpretation that counts is the official Catholic version, as taught by the Catholic Magisterium. Just as in our legal system, the only version that counts is that of the US Supreme Court, *legally speaking. *You can’t pop up in court and claim something that goes against what the USSC said.

The fact that there are many different interpretations of these verses just shows that the Chirst was correct to establish the Catholic Church, and that those who say different are wrong, because Christ said I am THE Way, THE Truth… He was not wishy-washy about it.

And you cannot say that *Catholics *are wrong based on what *other *people teach or do.
 
I thought my final paragraph about the couple who does this not being any more holy than the couple who doesn’t made it clear that I don’t think anyone is or should be forced to live this way if they truly do not believe it’s what’s called for?
A woman who truly and heartfully believes different is, imho, different from a woman who rejects the heart of this teaching in any way, shape or form out of selfishness, which NO, I’m NOT accusing anyone here of doing.

**I also, personally, don’t see again why it’s such a bad thing to see a sort of parental love here, in a small degree. **God calls us to come to him trusting as children, and as I am to submit to my husband as I submit to Christ, when loving, selfless direction is given, it does sometimes take a childlike trust.

Again, it’s how I interprite the teaching, and what I personally think the ideal is.
I frankly see something a bit disturbing about the idea of a woman seeing her husband as her new Daddy.

PS-Sorry everyone, I just noticed Nilla Bean is Banned and therefore cannot reply.
 
No religion on the planet holds women in a higher position, gives women more power, or respects their roles more, than the Catholic religion. Adjust for purely cultural/national prejudices, and the actual reality is no religion is more supportive of women than Catholicism. Nowhere do they have more freedom. None other has the Mother of God as its highest ideal of womanhood, and no woman is closer to God or has more influence in Heaven and on earth. Think about these things, and if your son is not some college kid with a knee-jerk reaction against anything seemingly “sexist” who really doesn’t know what he’s talking about, he will see that there is no safer or saner place for a woman than in the Catholic fold.
Based on what?:rolleyes:
 
You are going around in circles: you do not see submission as loving because you do not see loving submission.

These examples that you give do not involve individual love. The police officer does not know me; he does not love me as an individual. But a good police officer loves the people, that is why he puts his life at risk by being a police officer.

There was a case many years ago where I used to live of a women who had many drunk driving tickets. She had weaseled out of them because her dad worked in the justice system so people let her slide. One day she got drunk and killed 4 teenagers.

Was it loving of those people to let her slide–they did not submit themselves to the law and ultimately they contributed to these deaths. Was it loving of her to go her own way and not submit to the law? No, and she sees that now, locked up in jail for decades.

When we see submission as a bad thing, we cannot see any love around it. When you submit to the police officer, the laws around that are for your mutual protection: his and yours, and the surrounding people’s.

Within a family, submission is a good thing. Our children should submit to us parents, otherwise they will grow up warped. Have you see those types of children? I saw a 6yo boy kicking his mother and calling her names using *foul *language because she told him it was time to leave and he did not want to go. She did nothing. Imagine what he will grow up to be.

And within the wife and husband situation, the submission for the wife *comes with *the sacrifice of the husband–this is not some sort of uneven situation. In fact, I would say that the husband has the *worse *end of the deal.

You seem to think that submission is some sort of doormat deal, but the reality is that it is the wife’s contribution to a loving family. I could decide the question every decision my husband made, make him prove to me that what he wants is best, make him submit to me if he couldn’t do so–but, does it really matter? Rarely. And it would lead to a lot of fighting and nothing ever getting done.

Does it mean a wife can never speak up? No. It just means that when the husband is acting as a loving and sacrificing head of the household, the wife should recognize that and let him be.
It does if the husband commands the wife to never question him.
If the husband is firmly in charge, then the relationship between husband and wife is not a partnership but more like master and slave or soldier and general.
 
Okay, so if the “head” means they make the decisions, what does the “heart” do?
The vital things that don’t require thinking:shrug:
Saying that I’m the head and your the heart is kind of like saying I’m the brain (and therefore do the thinking and make the decisions) but you do the grunt work.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin
Duties Of A Husband

It is the duty of the husband to treat his wife generously and honourably. It should not be forgotten that Eve was called by Adam his companion. The woman, he says, whom thou gavest me as a companion. Hence it was, according to the opinion of some of the holy Fathers, that she was formed not from the feet but from the side of man; as, on the other hand, she was not formed from his head, in order to give her to understand that it was not hers to command but to obey her husband.

The husband should also be constantly occupied in some honest pursuit with a view to provide necessaries for the support of his family and to avoid idleness, the root of almost every vice.

He is also to keep all his family in order, to correct their morals, and see that they faithfully discharge their duties.

Duties Of A Wife

On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.

To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband’s consent.

Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.
  • Catechism of the Council of Trent
'In like manner also let wives be subject to their husbands: that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word, by the conversation of the wives. Considering your chaste conversation with fear. Whose adorning let it not be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: But the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and a meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands:

As Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters you are, doing well, and not fearing any disturbance. Ye husbands, likewise dwelling with them according to knowledge, giving honour to the female as to the weaker vessel, and as to the co-heirs of the grace of life: that your prayers be not hindered. ’

1 Peter 3:1-7

That the husband is the head of the family, and the wife is under obedience to him, is unchangable Catholic teaching. God Himself is a patriarch and this is the model and order He has given to the family and society.

This is why it is important to choose a good husband, and if you would have a problem with a particular potential husband being in authority over you, not to marry. Because afterwards, it is a matter of virtue and sin. Obedience is a virtue and sanctifies us and gains us interior holiness and reward in Heaven. If a husband absconds from his role, that’s a sin – and so too if a wife usurps it, this is what Eve did, and so the children of Eve are constantly tempted this way, because of a predisposition to this failing now being a part of original sin. Just as the husband is tempted to either allow it, or attempt to us it wrongly to satisfy some sinful passion rather than virtuously, which is its sole purpose.

To people who have long been propagandized by both Communist originating Feminism and an over individualism that defies any subjection, these things can be at best foreign ideas. But they’re written in the natural and divine law and so we can appreciate the goodness in them, rather than mistakenly follow the propaganda, if we are open to doing so and seek to do so.

“Subjection” to God is a good thing. Subjection to those God places in authority over us is too. Obedience is how saints are made, and virtue gained. Obedience of children to parents, religious to religious superiors, and wife to husband, penitent to the confessor…

If an archangel, if such were imaginable, should envy and dislike and say it us unfair not to be in the Choir of Seraphim rather than the Choir of Archangels… what kind of respect to God in Heaven would this be? So it is not unfitting that some be in one position, and others be in another.

Actually I have known quite a few women who were turned-off regarding Catholicism because of views like Shin’s (including my own mother).
They wanted their boyfriends/husbands to be their partner, not their master.
I was being completely sarcastic :D. Shin’s post is the kind of post that has the potential to make me start to question the Church. I don’t know if he gets that or cares.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin
Duties Of A Husband

It is the duty of the husband to treat his wife generously and honourably. It should not be forgotten that Eve was called by Adam his companion. The woman, he says, whom thou gavest me as a companion. Hence it was, according to the opinion of some of the holy Fathers, that she was formed not from the feet but from the side of man; as, on the other hand, she was not formed from his head, in order to give her to understand that it was not hers to command but to obey her husband.

The husband should also be constantly occupied in some honest pursuit with a view to provide necessaries for the support of his family and to avoid idleness, the root of almost every vice.

He is also to keep all his family in order, to correct their morals, and see that they faithfully discharge their duties.

Duties Of A Wife

On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.

To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband’s consent.

Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.
  • Catechism of the Council of Trent
'In like manner also let wives be subject to their husbands: that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word, by the conversation of the wives. Considering your chaste conversation with fear. Whose adorning let it not be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: But the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and a meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands:

As Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters you are, doing well, and not fearing any disturbance. Ye husbands, likewise dwelling with them according to knowledge, giving honour to the female as to the weaker vessel, and as to the co-heirs of the grace of life: that your prayers be not hindered. ’

1 Peter 3:1-7

That the husband is the head of the family, and the wife is under obedience to him, is unchangable Catholic teaching. God Himself is a patriarch and this is the model and order He has given to the family and society.

This is why it is important to choose a good husband, and if you would have a problem with a particular potential husband being in authority over you, not to marry. Because afterwards, it is a matter of virtue and sin. Obedience is a virtue and sanctifies us and gains us interior holiness and reward in Heaven. If a husband absconds from his role, that’s a sin – and so too if a wife usurps it, this is what Eve did, and so the children of Eve are constantly tempted this way, because of a predisposition to this failing now being a part of original sin. Just as the husband is tempted to either allow it, or attempt to us it wrongly to satisfy some sinful passion rather than virtuously, which is its sole purpose.

To people who have long been propagandized by both Communist originating Feminism and an over individualism that defies any subjection, these things can be at best foreign ideas. But they’re written in the natural and divine law and so we can appreciate the goodness in them, rather than mistakenly follow the propaganda, if we are open to doing so and seek to do so.

“Subjection” to God is a good thing. Subjection to those God places in authority over us is too. Obedience is how saints are made, and virtue gained. Obedience of children to parents, religious to religious superiors, and wife to husband, penitent to the confessor…

If an archangel, if such were imaginable, should envy and dislike and say it us unfair not to be in the Choir of Seraphim rather than the Choir of Archangels… what kind of respect to God in Heaven would this be? So it is not unfitting that some be in one position, and others be in another.

Actually I have known quite a few women who were turned-off regarding Catholicism because of views like Shin’s (including my own mother).
They wanted their boyfriends/husbands to be their partner, not their master.
I was being completely sarcastic:;). Shin’s post is the kind that has the potential to make me question the Church. I don’t know if he gets that or cares. Btw, I don’t know why my quote didn’t appear with yours? Still figuring this quote stuff out.
 
I was being completely sarcastic:;). Shin’s post is the kind that has the potential to make me question the Church. I don’t know if he gets that or cares. Btw, I don’t know why my quote didn’t appear with yours? Still figuring this quote stuff out.
So long as what I say is an accurate representation of biblical and Catholic teaching, I don’t really care if makes people question the Church.

In fact, I hope it does make people question the Church. If you are not ready to try to submit to Church doctrine, or refuse to admit that submission to Her doctrine is even necessary, then you are not yet ready to be a Catholic. RCIA or even Confirmation is not something candidates should take lightly.
 
It also says ‘slaves obey your masters.’
Should we respect that teaching too:rolleyes:
Yeah actually I think we should, if slavery still existed that is. At least this particular line you’ve quoted, certainly rings in harmony with Matthew 5:39-42.

“39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your [am]shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever [ao]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.”

This of course is not saying slavery is a great thing anymore than it’s saying theft is a great thing anymore than it’s saying spousal abuse is a great thing. Of course the exploitation of slavery is morally deplorable, as is the exploitation of any power, be it in the household or in political office. It’s simply saying that this is what you do if you want to be like Christ. God will not punish you for some other guy making you suffer. Redemption and mercy are found when we suffer in such ways, and if we don’t succumb to the temptation of retaliation, God will give us grace.

Submitting to your husbands, as the bible commands, will always bring you grace. The Lord does not grant women grace only when submitting to their husbands or to the Lord is convenient for the woman. Similarly he does not give man grace only when submitting to the Lord is convenient. God gives us grace when we obey him at ALL TIMES, regardless of how hard it strikes us, how close to death it brings us, or how little money we get in return. It’s those difficult times, not the easy times, when our submission to God grants us the redemption necessary for eternal life.

Remember there is much more at stake here beyond our own earthly material/emotional satisfactions.
 
So long as what I say is an accurate representation of biblical and Catholic teaching, I don’t really care if makes people question the Church.

In fact, I hope it does make people question the Church. If you are not ready to try to submit to Church doctrine, or refuse to admit that submission to Her doctrine is even necessary, then you are not yet ready to be a Catholic. RCIA or even Confirmation is not something candidates should take lightly.
You should.
If people question the Church long enough they will probably consider leaving.
 
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
It also says ‘slaves obey your masters.’
Should we respect that teaching too:rolleyes:
**Yeah actually I think we should, if slavery still existed **that is. At least this particular line you’ve quoted, certainly rings in harmony with Matthew 5:39-42.

“39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your [am]shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever [ao]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.”

This of course is not saying slavery is a great thing anymore than it’s saying theft is a great thing anymore than it’s saying spousal abuse is a great thing. Of course the exploitation of slavery is morally deplorable, as is the exploitation of any power, be it in the household or in political office. It’s simply saying that this is what you do if you want to be like Christ. God will not punish you for some other guy making you suffer. Redemption and mercy are found when we suffer in such ways, and if we don’t succumb to the temptation of retaliation, God will give us grace.

Submitting to your husbands, as the bible commands, will always bring you grace. The Lord does not grant women grace only when submitting to their husbands or to the Lord is convenient for the woman. Similarly he does not give man grace only when submitting to the Lord is convenient. God gives us grace when we obey him at ALL TIMES, regardless of how hard it strikes us, how close to death it brings us, or how little money we get in return. It’s those difficult times, not the easy times, when our submission to God grants us the redemption necessary for eternal life.

Remember there is much more at stake here beyond our own earthly material/emotional satisfactions.
It does unfortunately.
Sex slavery is a growing problem in the modern world (which is related to the shortage of girls in places like China) and Africa never completely lost the institution.

So you support slavery then?
 
That’s because obedience is easy to define but ‘love’ is more ambiguous.

For instance, let’s say a man says that he loves his wife and kids and actually believes that. But after work he gets drunk at the bar every night and then goes home and beats those same people.

Now does he really love them or not?
Does it matter?
If he does those things, is he obeying the part which says that he shall love his wife as Christ loves His Church?
Moreover, the law and culture have often demanded that wives obey their husbands (giving husbands substantial legal and social power over their wives) but virtually no laws anywhere demand that a man love his wife.
How non-Catholics interpret the Bible is irrelevant.
 
The vital things that don’t require thinking:shrug:
Saying that I’m the head and your the heart is kind of like saying I’m the brain (and therefore do the thinking and make the decisions) but you do the grunt work.
That would only work if one said: *I’m the head and you’re the brawn. *Since that is not what is said, what you said doesn’t make any sense.
 
True enough.
But I think its fairly self-evident that the potential for abuse goes way up when you give people authority.
Especially when the basis of that authority is how the people in charge differ from those that they have authority over (such as men in relation to women, masters with regard to slaves, whites over blacks in the Jim Crow South, etc.). Because it encourages those in power to think of themselves as a priviliged elite and to not empathize with those they have dominion over.
i think the marriage style is different, one become proud, arrogant and ‘dominate-tive’ when self-giving love is absent. That is not the marriage idea a heirarchy of love calls for a difference, the lover gives all for the beloved as christ for the church, while there seems to be a heirarchy where the man is first, a different heirarchy exist in the mans minds in this heirarchy the man is last because he must put those he love first. It is more than human philosophy, it is spirituality, the spirituality of marriage, a spirituality like that of the priesthood but like all spiritual it is not alway seen or even practice by all profess it. But it true depth can only be fully appreciated by those who experience it.
Im sorry if a blab too much but it is true.
Ubenedictus
 
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
It does if you interpret the text literally:

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
-Ephesians 5

Now of course you don’t have to interpret the text literally, but if you leave yourself free to interpret Scripture at your own discretion then it could mean anything.

No, its because I am interpreting the text literally.
Its theoretically possible you could really expect wives to be utterly submissive AND expect husbands to be the self-sacrificing ones.
It just doesn’t work that way in real life most of the time.
In reality, those in charge seldom select themselves to be sacrificed (and say I seldom because I know it happens sometimes).
ok those for whom it happen are those who get the idea, one where authority is excercised and no sacrificial love is a carricature and it is not the christain message or idea.
Ubenedictus
 
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Originally Posted by LucyLight
This is just wishful thinking on your part. I’ll go with Pope John Paul II over you

A lot of the official documents Pope John Paul II released concerning women stressed their equal value and dignity (in relation to men). He also wrote about how it was unfair to reduce them to servitude.

Many people actually.
In the modern era the Muslims are probably the most shameless about it.
Saying that a women’s worth is literally half that of a man’s.
ok sorry for the outburst, but i was actually refering to the thread. I dont think anybody on this thread has that thought.
Ubenedictus
 
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