Are you saved?

[RonWI]

Can we all agree that:

1. Sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ.
2. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation.
3. That whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.
4. Believers should not look to themselves but look solely to Christ and trust only him. In trust in God’s promise they are assured of their salvation, but are never secure looking at themselves.
5. Recognizing his own failures, however, the believer may yet be certain that God intends his salvation.

 

[UnworthySoul]

Salmon:

Card-carrying member:

First Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, Roman synod.

Unreformed.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

That is by far the coolest way to tell a Protestant that you’re a Roman Catholic. Very nice!

 

[UnworthySoul]

Ani Ibi:

There is a certain hungry, half-crazed look I adopt for occasions such as these. It stops them dead in their tracks.

ROFL picturing myself doing that look!

 

[Ignatius]

RonWI:

Can we all agree that:

1. Sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ.
2. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation.
3. That whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.
4. Believers should not look to themselves but look solely to Christ and trust only him. In trust in God’s promise they are assured of their salvation, but are never secure looking at themselves.
5. Recognizing his own failures, however, the believer may yet be certain that God intends his salvation.

Actually we are saved by a free gift of God -Grace, through Faith working in love.

John’s Gospel 5:22-23 specifically states "
28 11 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation. "Now we know that Holy Scripture cannot contradict itself as it is the inerrant word of God. Therefore, if your beliefs contradict John 5:29, your understanding must be in error. The greatest tool that Satan has ever divised what the set of false doctrines of men which he started in the 16th century. The sure norm for knowing if your personal interpretation of scripture is correct is to compare it with what the Church which Jesus Christ founded on His Apostles guided by the Holy Spirit has always taught. It is the Catholic Church which declared infallibly, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what books are in the New Testament. It was the Catholic Church which declared, by the authority given by Jesus Christ Himself that the New Testament scriptures are the inerrent work of God. This very New Testament that you proclaim was preserved pristine through the mellenia and given to you by the Catholic Church. These false doctrines of men from the 16th century that you follow are leading you astray.

I will pray for the Holy Spirit to remove the scales from your eyes and lead you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Yours in Christ.

 

[sonseeker]

Gene C.:

Bill,

You said: “Have I resolved this for you?” Actually, Bill, I was hoping to resolve things for you! J

Hi Gene,

Let me begin by rewarding you for your “I was hoping to resolve things for you,” remark. As I read it, a big grin spread across my face.

“You have humbled me sir,” he said, bowing his head respectfully.

(I am hoping you have a hard copy of what you sent to me, as I have used ellipses to keep the length reasonable.)

You say: “If it is spiritual death…a person’s soul is at stake.” I agree. But, we simply do not know.

You say: “But let’s assume…It sounds like glory.” Again, a grin, I knew exactly where you were going. Not because I’ve heard it before, I have not; you are the first to raise this issue with me. It is because it is such an excellent point! The typical answer you have heard sounds good too, but I have my own answer, and it is in the text.

***“But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world” (1 Cor 11:32). ***The immediate context of that discipline is, many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. It may sound like glory to you, but to Paul it is discipline.

You said: “I know where scholars…is a stretch…). I don’t have to tell you the importance of language and its components; how are you to know what I am saying, if I am not mindful of proper punctuation, verb tensing, etc., and vice versa.

Anyway, The complete forgiveness of sins is taught beginning in the O.T., but let’s start in Heb 10:1-25.

There the writer compares and contrasts the impossibility of the removal of guilt/condemnation in the old covenant, with the complete removal of guilt/condemnation in the new covenant. He says the sacrificial system, the law, was a shadow of good things to come. He says the sacrifices the priests offered continually could not remove the people’s guilt. If they could, he says, they would have ceased to be offered. He says the blood of bulls and goats could not take away the guilt. That is why the sacrifices, though continual—day in, and day out, year in, and year out, century in, and century out—could not take away the guilt of sins (cf John 1:29). The promise foreshadowed in the Levitical sacrifices was that God’s anointed one would come and abolition the guilt and penalty of sins forever. That is the Gospel preached to Abraham in which he rejoiced (Gal 3:8; Jn 8:56).

In vv11 & 12: The writer contrasts the same sacrifices offered continuously, which could not take away sin, with the one sacrifice that did; he calls it the one sacrifice offered for sins for all time. The whole idea of forgiveness with God is that it is complete. God’s forgiveness in the O.T. is somewhat elusive also. The prophets spoke of it in glowing terms, Ps 103:12; Is 38:17; 43:25; and yet, the priests had to sacrifice continually. That final, absolute forgiveness of sins was ***anticipated ***in Christ, who was manifested to put away the guilt of sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Heb 9:26). He ajqethsiV, put it away, set it aside, abolished it, removed it as far as the east is from the west to remember it no more. At justification, a one time forgiveness of all sins is given. That is why Paul says there is now no condemnation for the believer, and that he has peace with God (Rom 5:1; 8:1; see also Col2:13). (Note the verb tenses).

He also says: Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies…nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom 8:33ff).
(continued on next post)

 

[sonseeker]

(continuation from post #105)

Peter does mention purification from former sins, and John says that we must confess present sins in 1 Jn 1:9. It is good for us to confess our present sins. It is an acknowledgement of our transgression. Backup to verse 1 Jn 1:7, notice: *the blood of Jesus **cleanses us from all sin **(present (continuing action/result), active (done to us), indicative (a statement of fact/being). *Don’t ignore the grammar Gene. You have not been lured away from scriptural inspiration, have you? I hope not!

Heb 10:18 says: Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. And I might add, no need for priests to do the offering.

Knowing your heartfelt belief (and my fondness for you), I do not ask this question lightly: in light of v18, and all that I have said, are there any doctrines you should re-examine? I know you find comfort in the rites you practice, but Christ wants you to find comfort in Him.

God Bless you Gene

Bill

 

[Gene_C]

Bill,

Another thought. In the parable of the Prodigal Son, the younger son did not die physically when he left his father’s estate, yet Jesus said he was “dead.” So did he die spiritually? I think so. Remember that this parable is a picture of our relationship with God.

Gene

 

[Gene_C]

Bill,

We must be online at the same time. I just checked in and saw that you had not replied yet. I typed in the “another thought” post, which as you can see is very short, and by the time it posted, your response was up there, too.

Gene

 

[RonWI]

Ignatius:

Actually we are saved by a free gift of God -Grace, through Faith working in love.

John’s Gospel 5:22-23 specifically states "
28 11 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation. "Now we know that Holy Scripture cannot contradict itself as it is the inerrant word of God. Therefore, if your beliefs contradict John 5:29, your understanding must be in error. The greatest tool that Satan has ever divised what the set of false doctrines of men which he started in the 16th century. The sure norm for knowing if your personal interpretation of scripture is correct is to compare it with what the Church which Jesus Christ founded on His Apostles guided by the Holy Spirit has always taught. It is the Catholic Church which declared infallibly, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what books are in the New Testament. It was the Catholic Church which declared, by the authority given by Jesus Christ Himself that the New Testament scriptures are the inerrent work of God. This very New Testament that you proclaim was preserved pristine through the mellenia and given to you by the Catholic Church. These false doctrines of men from the 16th century that you follow are leading you astray.

I will pray for the Holy Spirit to remove the scales from your eyes and lead you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Yours in Christ.

Ignatius, are you under the impression that the 5 points I listed come from "men from the 16th century? Before you attack these points as “false doctrine” any more, you may want to find out who authored them:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[Gene_C]

Bill,

I’ll be back online Monday morning, New York time. Didn’t have time to answer in detail.

Have a blessed weekend,
Gene

 

[sonseeker]

Hi Gene,

I got your post this afternoon, must have just missed it in the A.M. (I’m in CA).

You said:
Gene C:

Another thought. In the parable of the Prodigal Son, the younger son did not die physically when he left his father’s estate, yet Jesus said he was “dead.” So did he die spiritually? I think so. Remember that this parable is a picture of our relationship with God.

This parable is indeed a picture of our relationship with God.

I observe: 2 sons, one father. Younger son asks father for his portion of inheritance, father gives it to him; he squanders it; he comes to himself; he goes home, and his father not only forgives him, but fawns all over him; in fact, the son doesn’t even get to say all he had rehearsed; and then, the father orders his servants to prepare a feast.

Older son is angry at father because he forgives so quickly, and completely, and he rejoices over his prodigal son; father tells angry son, don’t be angry, all I have is yours. Who are these people?

Possible Identity of Players: Father is God; younger son the Jews who are repenting and believing in Messiah; older son is the Pharisees who are angry and resentful at repenting sinners. What does it mean?

Let’ use scripture to tell us what scripture is saying; First, we need some context; what is before this parable? Two other parables. What are they about? First one: a man has one hundred sheep; he loses one, and leaves behind 99 sheep that are not lost to find one that is lost; he finds it, and calls his friends and neighbors to rejoice with him. Second one: a woman has ten silver coins; loses one; goes through a lot of trouble to find it; she finds it, and calls her friends and neighbors to rejoice with her.

I observe: although in the first parable, a sheep is lost, and, in the second parable, a coin is lost, at the end of each, joy is described in terms of the joy in heaven, and joy in the presence of angels over the repentance of one lost sinner.

Let’s look at this once more. We have a parable that uses a lost sheep to teach us about the ***joy in heaven over one sinner out of 100 sinners who repents; ***we have another parable that uses a lost coin to teach us about the joy in the presence of angels over 1 sinner who repents; and, we have a third parable that teaches us about a Father’s joy over his son returning home empty-handed, after squandering his inheritance. From the context of the two preceding parables, we ascertain that returning home is synonymous with repentance.

God’s joy, and the joy of heaven and the angel’s over the repentance of one sinner is shown here. It is not about death.

Care must be taken with parables. You cannot find a scriptural parallel for every thing in a parable. They are, as you say, pictures to illustrate, and to teach truths.

They should not be used to teach doctrine.

If, as you suggest, I were to view the parable of the prodigal son as doctrine, then I would say, “Gene let’s get our inheritance and go have a ball, because after we’ve squandered it all, and come back empty-handed, He will restore us completely, and then some!”

He is a kind and merciful God, and the heavens, and the angels in them, rejoice when He saves one sinner! We are empty-handed, and we have squandered it all; we have nothing to offer Him.

God Bless you Gene

Bill

 

[Ignatius]

RonWI:

Originally Posted by Ignatius
*Actually we are saved by a free gift of God -Grace, through Faith working in love.

John’s Gospel 5:22-23 specifically states "
28 11* Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation. "Now we know that Holy Scripture cannot contradict itself as it is the inerrant word of God. Therefore, if your beliefs contradict John 5:29, your understanding must be in error. The greatest tool that Satan has ever divised what the set of false doctrines of men which he started in the 16th century. The sure norm for knowing if your personal interpretation of scripture is correct is to compare it with what the Church which Jesus Christ founded on His Apostles guided by the Holy Spirit has always taught. It is the Catholic Church which declared infallibly, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what books are in the New Testament. It was the Catholic Church which declared, by the authority given by Jesus Christ Himself that the New Testament scriptures are the inerrent work of God. This very New Testament that you proclaim was preserved pristine through the mellenia and given to you by the Catholic Church. These false doctrines of men from the 16th century that you follow are leading you astray.

I will pray for the Holy Spirit to remove the scales from your eyes and lead you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Yours in Christ.

Ignatius, are you under the impression that the 5 points I listed come from "men from the 16th century? Before you attack these points as “false doctrine” any more, you may want to find out who authored them:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Well the preamble seems to confirm what I sad. The very first section reads as follows:

Preamble

1. The doctrine of justification was of central importance for the Lutheran Reformation of the sixteenth century.

Also, after a great deal of discussion about working to achieve a common understanding, it goes on to say:

1. The present Joint Declaration has this intention:. . . . .It does not cover all that either church teaches about justification

God bless and peace be with you.

 

[jacobaer]

Greetings Bill,

You said:
*“This parable is indeed a picture of our relationship with God.” Good! *We agree on this. Then you went on to recap the parable. All well and good here.

Then you said:
“God’s joy, and the joy of heaven and the angel’s over the repentance of one sinner is shown here. It is not about death.”

But He did mention it. You can’t deny it or look around it. You said in an earlier post that there were two kinds of death, physical and spiritual. You said that the passages I quoted from James and 1 John did not say which death was being talked about. But when I show you in a parable of our Lord the mention of death, which is so obviously spiritual because the younger son did not die physically, you tell me the parable is about joy not death. You should at least be intellectually honest and admit that since the parable is about our relationship with God, that the possibility of spiritual death is there in the parable. (My Presbyterian pastor did as much.)

• “Care must be taken with parables…They should not be used to teach doctrine.” *
  Says who? ((Yes, I know the principles hermeneutics, and have heard the refrain, ‘The Epistles explain the Gospels.’) Why can’t the Gospels explain the Epistles? Or why can’t the Gospels and Epistles compliment each other instead of having one dominate the other? Both the Epistles and Gospel are inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is better to say they both teach doctrine.

“If, as you suggest, I were to view the parable of the prodigal son as doctrine, then I would say, ‘Gene let’s get our inheritance and go have a ball, because after we’ve squandered it all, and come back empty-handed, He will restore us completely, and then some!’”
That is the problem with the false doctrine of eternal security; it gives one a false sense of security! A person can rest in a doctrine instead of in Christ.* *
**
“He is a kind and merciful God, and the heavens, and the angels in them, rejoice when He saves one sinner! We are empty-handed, and we have squandered it all; we have nothing to offer Him.”
Hallelujah! This is what I believe, and what the Catholic Church teaches.

Grace and peace to you Bill,
Gene

 

[jacobaer]

Hey Bill,

I just realized that I posted under a different name. I have one for my work PC and one for my home PC. (I hope I’m not breaking any Forum rules!)

I’ll respond to your Hebrews post in the morning (Monday) from work.

Have a good night,
Gene

 

[jacobaer]

Hi Bill,

Up late Sunday so I decided to post my response to your Hebrews discussion.

Yes, Bill, it is wonderful, amazing really, that by Christ’s one sacrifice for sins, God “has perfected forever…those who are bring made holy.” But there is a condition here and it is perseverance in holiness.

Hebrews 3 - “12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15 As has just been said: ‘Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.’ 16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.”

Hebrews 5 - “4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. 9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation.”

Hebrews 10 - “26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ and again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

It seems like a paradox but there are plenty of those in Scripture. After all, God is Infinite and Holy and we are finite and sinful and we are not going to understand everything; we don’t have to make it all seem logical. We just have to believe. I thank the Lutherans for making me see this. They believe that Christians are saved completely by grace, but the believer must persevere in faith to the end. They take seriously the warnings mentioned above and that a believer can lose salvation.

(continued)

 

[jacobaer]

You said:

*“Don’t ignore the grammar Gene. You have not been lured away from scriptural inspiration, have you? I hope not!” *

No, I haven’t. I just take all of Scripture seriously and do not try to make it fit into a neat little theological template.

“Knowing your heartfelt belief (and my fondness for you), I do not ask this question lightly: in light of v18, and all that I have said, are there any doctrines you should re-examine? I know you find comfort in the rites you practice, but Christ wants you to find comfort in Him.”

Really, Bill, I could ask the same question of you. Are you trusting in Christ or in doctrines about Christ? Are you reading Scripture through a theological grid and making “problem” verses fit in or even side-stepping them?

I’m 51 but I get the impression that you are older than me so I am trying to treat you like an elder and show you respect. But sometimes I’ve gotten the impression that you are patronizing me in order to win a “convert.” Instead of a real dialogue, you are lecturing me and then asking me if I need to re-consider.

The doctrine that you are espousing is not a proven doctrine that has been accepted by the entire Evangelical community. You know that there is much debate on a topic like this. OK, you’ve taken your stand but understand that others disagree.

And I do find comfort in our Lord Jesus Christ AND in the rites he has established, celebrated in the Church he has established. Are you saying that the two are mutually exclusive? It’s either rites or Christ? If so, then you would be locking out Anglican Christians and Lutheran Christians and Methodist Christians, all of whom celebrate rites.

Please do not be offended but I think our discussion, at least on this thread and this topic, is over. Maybe we can talk again on another thread and a different topic.

Grace and peace to you,

Gene

 

[RonWI]

RonWI:

Can we all agree that:

1. Sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ.
2. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation.
3. That whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.
4. Believers should not look to themselves but look solely to Christ and trust only him. In trust in God’s promise they are assured of their salvation, but are never secure looking at themselves.
5. Recognizing his own failures, however, the believer may yet be certain that God intends his salvation.

Each of these statements came from the Joint Declaration. And each of them came from sections which began “We confess together…”

The declaration also states:

40.The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics. In light of this consensus the remaining differences of language, theological elaboration, and emphasis in the understanding of justification described in paras. 18 to 39 are acceptable. Therefore the Lutheran and the Catholic explications of justification are in their difference open to one another and do not destroy the consensus regarding the basic truths.

41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.

Read as a whole, the document clearly stands for the proposition that all Christians, even Catholic ones, can be “certain” and “assured” of their salvation. Those who doubt, or are unsure of, their own salvation doubt the efficacy of Christ’s death and resurrection.

 

[Gene_C]

Ron,

Thanks for reminding us that it is Jesus who saves us, not our understanding of doctrine about Jesus. Doctrine is important, more importantly, correct doctrine is important because it tells us about our Savior and what He has done for us, and what our correct response is to be.

Just curious, are you in an LCMS congregation?

Thanks and blessings,
Gene

 

[Ignatius]

RonWI:

Each of these statements came from the Joint Declaration. And each of them came from sections which began “We confess together…”

The declaration also states:

40.The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics. In light of this consensus the remaining differences of language, theological elaboration, and emphasis in the understanding of justification described in paras. 18 to 39 are acceptable. Therefore the Lutheran and the Catholic explications of justification are in their difference open to one another and do not destroy the consensus regarding the basic truths.

41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.

Read as a whole, the document clearly stands for the proposition that all Christians, even Catholic ones, can be “certain” and “assured” of their salvation. Those who doubt, or are unsure of, their own salvation doubt the efficacy of Christ’s death and resurrection.

I have read the entire document.
Once again I must emphasize the statement in 5.

1. The present Joint Declaration has this intention:. . . . .It does not cover all that either church teaches about justification

Faith is certainly necessary to salvation, but nowhere does it say that we are saved by “faith alone”. Sola Fide is, in fact a false doctine of man which did not exist prior to the 16th century.

I will also remind you of James 2:24 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. "
You see then that does scripure does not say that we are saved by faith alone, but, on the contrary says that we are not saved by faith alone. This is scriputre and is, therefore the word of GOD.

Bottom line: We are saved by Gods Grace alone, through Faith, working in Love.

Yours in Christ.

 

[Writer]

dumspirospero:

THe question is not answerable…and it is mostly thrown out by Protestants who some how believe that they were born again and accepted Jesus as their personal saviour and therefore they are saved…they can never fall out of a state of grace because they have Faith and believe in Jesus…well you know what I tell them…The Devil has faith and believes in Jesus as well.

Now granted…I am in the process of being saved and my every action will determine whether or not I will be saved once I pass from this world and stand to be judged…if I receive eternal life, then I have been saved…If I receive eternal damnation, then I was not saved…I hope it is the former LOL

It always irritates me when a Protestant says, I am saved, then ask me if I am…I always reply I am a work in progress because that is the only truth…In a sense, we were saved from eternal damnation by Jesus dying on the cross for us, but eternal life is not guaranteed…our Faith and Actions will determine if we receive that precious gift.

I think your first paragraph is an over-simplification. The OSAS crowd does not include all Protestants–just the Calvinists (Baptists and Presbyterians, for example). Many Catholics do believe in something called the second conversion, which makes sense to me. First conversion refers to baptism, and second conversion refers to a conscious declaration as an older person to follow the teachings of Christ. Before we are too hard on those who declare themseleves “saved”, we should realize that the terms is Biblical, even if we don’t always agree with what it has come to mean by some of the Fundamentalists out there.

While we must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”, I think there is a degree of personal assurance we can have that we are heading inthe right direction. We just aren’t as prone to make wide-ranging generalizations that all Catholics, for example, are going to heaven–just as we wouldn’t say that about Baptists. Free will means that many will lose their way, but with God’s mercy we can have a degree of peace as to where we are heading.