Are you saved?

[Gene_C]

Hi sonseeker,

Would you ponder these verses and tell me what you think they mean?

2 Corinthians 5: 1-10
**Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. **

**Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. **

****Hebrews 10: 26-31 ****

****If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ****

1 Corinthians 11: 27-32

**Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world. **

Romans 14: 9-12

**For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written:“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.’ ”So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. **

1 John 5: 13-17

****I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us–whatever we ask–we know that we have what we asked of him. If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. ****

James 5: 19-20

**My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. **

Blessings,
Gene

 

[Church_Militant]

sonseeker:

I’m trying to understand your faith. In the section of your quote above, you say that you will be judged when you pass from this world. I know that Catholics have traditions, but John’s Gospel, 3:16-18, specifically v18, says “He who believes in Him [the Son] is not judged.” Your statement contradicts the Gospel. I don’t understand?

Hi sonseeker,
I would say that you have missed some very clear statements by Jesus himself if you believe that out of context interpretation. Look at this:

Matthew 25:31-46

And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

This is clearly a judgement of all…and look at the basis of that judgement. You can’t yank a single passage out of context and say that Christians are not judged.

See this passage as well:

1st Corinthians 11:25-34

25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. 30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

31 But if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, that we be not condemned with this world. 33 Wherefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If any man be hungry, let him eat at home; that you come not together unto judgment. And the rest I will set in order, when I come.

There is certainly a judgement there.
Pax tecum,

 

[sonseeker]

To: Gene C. & Church Militant

Gene and Church, I’ll respond to your verse choices, but first, you need to re-read my post above. I did not saying anything about believers attending a judgement. I said that the text of Scripture says that the beliver is not judged. You can reject that if you want to, but that is clearly what the passages I cited say.

Church Militant, I’ll start with your Mt 25:31-46 passages first, and deal with Gene C’s passage second as these are different judgements.

The first passage Mt 25:31-46 is the sheep and goat judgement. Which all will attend, but at which only unbelievers will be judged.

V33 tells what happens. The sheep (believers) to the right; the goats (unbelievers) to the left.

Let’s look at this idea of the right for a moment.

The right hand is used either purely descriptively or with positive connotations. Metaphorically, the right is power, it is blessing. This is best illustrated in Gen 48:13-19, where Joseph is displeased with Jacob’s blessing of Ephraim and Manneseh, the right showing preference. It also shows support (Ps 18:35); victory (Ps 20:6)/ instruction Ps 45:4); deliverance (Ps 138:7), and so on. Note also the idomatic use of Christ “sitting at the right hand…” it is a place of honor. That is where the sheep go, but they are not judged here, they were judged at the time of their salvation and justified by God. That is why Christ and John say that the believer “is not judged,” and “does ***not come into ***judgement.” Again, he attends the judgement, but does not come into judgement.(I can attend a wedding and not be wed, attend a funeral and not be dead, attending a judgement and not be judged).

2 Cor 5:1-10.

Again, since we are talking about judgement, the key verse is v 10. Notice that we must appear before the judgement seat of Christ. That is the Bema judgement. What is that you say. You will find that in 1 Cor 3. Read that, and pay particular attention to vv12-15. What is being judged here? The man, or his works. It is his works. That judgement determines what reward the believer will receive v14. Again, not the believer who is judged, but his works.

Heb 10:26-31

Looking at a printout of the verses from your post Gene, I am not sure of the verse numbering, but the second line is important: of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Clearly unbelievers. A believer is not an enemy of God, but is loved by God.

Staying with the theme of judgement, Go to Heb 10:30. Those are quotes from Dt 32:35-36. The book of Hebrews is written to Jews who had professed faith in Christ, but becoming weak because of attacks by Jews who did not believe. I dealt with that above. The Bema judgement judges the believer’s works to determine his reward, not the believer’s person, as he is already justified.

1 Cor 11:27-32

Read the verse more carefully. This is temporal discipline, not eternal judgement. It says "When we (believers) are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined (why?) so that we will not be condemned with the world. The believer will not be condemned; he is not judged (Jn 3:18), and he does not come into judgement (Jn 5:24).

Rom 14:9-12

Same thing, Bema. We will stand (believers) each of us (believers) give an account of our work to determine our reward, as the believer is already justified.

1 Jn 5:13-17

An incredibly difficult passage. My take quickly.*** A sin leading to death*** a sin that is so bad that the believer would go to hell if God did not take him out before he finished. It is obviously a believer, as John refers to him as his brother who commits a sin.

Jas 5: 19-20 is your calling me repentance. Thank you for caring Gene.

 

[LoneRanger]

i certainly hope he’s there to catch me…

http://www.toytownmunich.com/archive/jesus.jpg

 

[Nun_ofthe_Above]

Am I saved?

The Jury is still out, on that one…but I am hoping He rules in my favour. I can only say that in my defence, I am willing to plead my guilt, and repent of my sins.

Peace be with you all.

 

[Milliardo]

sonseeker:

Judgement verses speak to the judgement/condemnation of unbelievers. In John 3:18, “krino” is translated “judged.” John 3:18 says the believer is not judged. It is a present tense, continuous action.

This might be true were it not for one flaw: Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome. They were in essence then believers. Note as well that Jesus didn’t make any distinction between believers and non-believers; that would go against what He said about everyone being judged.

Surely you see that I do not deny judgement. All I am saying is that the text says that the believer is not judged.

If you’re trying to say that a believer will be favourably judged, then we are in agreement. However, to say offhand that believers will not be judged is rather reckless. John 16:18’s point is exactly that: condemnation of a believer isn’t going to happen, though note that there will still be judgment.

 

[sonseeker]

Milliardo:

If you’re trying to say that a believer will be favourably judged, then we are in agreement. However, to say offhand that believers will not be judged is rather reckless. John 16:18’s point is exactly that: condemnation of a believer isn’t going to happen, though note that there will still be judgment.

John 3:18 intro: ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν οὐ κρίνεται:

lit.: the one who is believing into Him is not judged

the one who is believing is a present active participle: contiuously believing; active indicates activity by the believer.

is not judged is a present passive indicative: greek present continuous action; passive it is done to the one believing [not judging]; indicative mood is a statement of unqualified fact.

He is not judged.

You are free to reject it, but that is what the text says.

 

[JackmanUSC]

So if you say that we are automatically saved by believing in Christ how do you explain these
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the “hope” to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one “hope” (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.

Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.

Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.

Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the “hope” (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.

Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the “hope” of the gospel which you heard.

Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the “hope” (not the certainty) of His glory.

1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our “hope” or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of “hope” (not of certainty) of salvation.

2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good “hope” through grace.

1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our “hope” (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.

1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.

1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her “hope” (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.

1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.

2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.

 

[4_marks]

At one time I thought that I was because I believed that by confessing Christ with my lips and believing on Him with my heart, I would be saved.

I don’t think anyone really knows if they are going to be saved or not this side of the grave. We hope to be saved, but since we are all still alive, we can’t say for certain that we will be saved for to do so is nothing short of the sin of presumption.

 

[larryo]

Not yet, but like St. Paul I’m working on it–in fear and trembling-- bytrying to cooperate with God’s grace freely given, fueled by the virtues of faith, hope, and charity. The grace of salvation which flows from Our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross has redeemed me from original sin through baptism and enabled me to be saved by cooperating with this grace.

 

[sonseeker]

Gene C and Church Militant let clarify something, I was typing pretty fast and failed to make my point. I’ve added it in bold italic

Heb 10:26-31

Staying with the theme of judgement, Go to Heb 10:30. Those are quotes from Dt 32:35-36. The book of Hebrews is written to Jews who had professed faith in Christ, but becoming weak because of attacks by Jews who did not believe. What the writer was warning them was if you leave Christ and go back to the law you will come into judgement.

 

[sonseeker]

JackmanUSC:

So if you say that we are automatically saved by believing in Christ how do you explain these Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

You use Heb 7:27; 9:12; 10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 to prove that Christ died for everyone, based upon the phrase “once for all.” Once for all speaks to singularity and uniqueness of Christ’s death, and in that respect, “once for all,” means never to be repeated. See below the Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains, Greek NT entry #2384. Once for all does not mean that Christ died for everyone.

#2384ἐφάπαξ (ephapax): adv.; ≡ Str 2178; TDNT 1.383—1. LN 60.67 at once (1Co 15:6+), for another interp, see last; 2. LN 60.68 once and for all, once and not again (Ro 6:10; Heb 7:27; 9:12; 10:10+); 3. LN 67.34 at the same time (1Co 15:6+),

You say that redemption and salvation are not the same thing; they are.

You next list a number of verses with the word “hope” appearing more than 20 times. You seem to define hope by what people mean today, ie., “I am not sure, but I hope so.”

Let’s get a biblical definition of hope.

From the New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries : Updated Edition: 1680 ἐλπίς (elpis) #1679.

1679. ἐλπίζωelpizō; from ἔλπομαιelpomai (to anticipate, expect); to expect, to hope (for) :— expect(1), expected(1), fix…hope(2), fixed…hope(2), hope(13), hoped(3), hopes(1), hoping(4), set…hope(2), trust(1).

From: Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon: 1680 ἐλπίς

1680 ἐλπίς elpis /el·pece/] n f. From a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); TDNT 2:517; TDNTA 229; GK 1828; 54 occurrences; AV translates as “hope” 53 times, and “faith” once. 1 expectation of evil, fear. 2 expectation of good, hope. 2a in the Christian sense. 2a1 joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation. 3 on hope, in hope, having hope. 3a the author of hope, or he who is its foundation. 3b the thing hoped for. [2a1 bold is mine] (Continued below)

 

[sonseeker]

(This is a continuation of post #92)

The verses below clearly show that:

Romans 15:13

13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Your hope is by the power of the Spirit, not you.

2 Corinthians 1:10
10 who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, ***He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us, ***

Your hope is set on Him who will deliver you. Deliver is a synonym for salvation

Hebrews 6:11
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize ***the full assurance of hope ***until the end,

Your hope is fully assured

Hebrews 6:19
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,

Your Hope is an anchor, sure and steadfast.

The reason the believer has a confident hope?

2 Corinthians 5:5
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Definition of pledge: An earnest, a down payment.

You are free to reject it, but that is what the text says.

 

[MariaG]

A Catholic say I hope to be saved not because they are unsure of where they are at right now at this point in time, but because we cannot see the future. The Bible warns us that we must continue on in our faith and not fall away. That is part of the reason. The other is the Bible tells us that not all who say Lord, Lord, will go to heaven. There are those who think they are going to heaven who have fooled themselves as Scripture says.

That is why most Catholic Chritians will not say I know I am going to heaven. But if you acknowledge the above possibilities,
I KNOW I AM GOING TO HEAVEN

But most prefer to say I am confident of my salvation and am working it out with fear, trembling and joy.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Gene_C]

Hi sonseeker,

Sorry for taking out the verse numbers. I’ve gotten into the habit of doing that because I thought it looked better than leaving them in.

First, please don’t think I was calling you to repentance by putting James 5: 19-20 last. I can tell from your language in your posts that you are a believer in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Because of the limit the Forum puts on length of individual posts, I had to delete some stuff to make it fit. I actually wanted to get into doctrine, specifically, eternal security or “once saved, always saved.” From reading your posts, I got the impression that you believe in this doctrine. Your response to my post confirms this, so I will now move in that direction.

First, a bit about me. I was raised Catholic and attended parochial schools through the 8th grade. I was converted at the age of 20 and spent the next 30 or so years in all kinds of Evangelical churches. I’ve now “come home,” as some on this Forum would say.

While I was in the Evangelical world, I went back and forth on “once saved, always saved” (OSAS) over the years. It is much debated in the Evangelical community. I’ve now swung back to the other side and believe that, while we are saved by grace, we can fall from grace and lose the gift of eternal life, as the Church teaches.

Here is what you posted on 1 Jn 5:13-17: “An incredibly difficult passage. My take quickly.*** A sin leading to death*** a sin that is so bad that the believer would go to hell if God did not take him out before he finished. It is obviously a believer, as John refers to him as his brother who commits a sin.” It is only difficult if one believes in eternal security.

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, Jesus tells us that the son “was dead and is alive again.” The younger son lost his right of inheritance when he left the Father’s house. He was in a state of death. But when he repented and returned, he was restored.

Is the forgiveness that we receive conditional? In the parable of the unmerciful servant, the forgiveness that he received was revoked when he did not show mercy to the man who owed him.

When we receive the grace of God in salvation, we pass from death to life. We pass out of a state of condemnation or judgment, as you have stated. Can we pass from life back to death? James says so in the first chapter, verses 13-15: “13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”

Now those verses I quoted in 1 John 5 and James 5 make sense. Believers in our Lord Jesus Christ can, through mortal sin, pass back into a state of spiritual death until they repent, confess and receive absolution.

I leave you with Romans 8: 12-17: “12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.”

Grace and peace,
Gene

 

[sonseeker]

Gene C.:

Hi sonseeker,

Sorry for taking out the verse numbers. I’ve gotten into the habit of doing that because I thought it looked better than leaving them in.

First, please don’t think I was calling you to repentance by putting James 5: 19-20 last. I can tell from your language in your posts that you are a believer in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gene,

When I thanked you for calling me to repentance, I meant it. So few people I talk to on the streets care enough about what they believe to call me to repent and believe.

I’ll keep this short, I’ve pulled your post and will print it out and read it. Hasty responses are fine when I’m not going to talk to someone again; we, however, can meet here.

I welcome the opportunity to dialogue with you, *Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another *Pro 27:17

Bill

 

[Ignatius]

sonseeker:

I’m trying to understand your faith. In the section of your quote above, you say that you will be judged when you pass from this world. I know that Catholics have traditions, but John’s Gospel, 3:16-18, specifically v18, says “He who believes in Him [the Son] is not judged.” Your statement contradicts the Gospel. I don’t understand?

John’s Gospel 5:22-23 specifically states "
28 11 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation. "Now we know that Holy Scripture cannot contradict itself as it is the inerrant word of God. Therefore, if your beliefs contradict John 5:29, your understanding must be in error. The greatest tool that Satan has ever divised what the set of false doctrines of men which he started in the 16th century. The sure norm for knowing if your personal interpretation of scripture is correct is to compare it with what the Church which Jesus Christ founded on His Apostles guided by the Holy Spirit has always taught. It is the Catholic Church which declared infallibly, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what books are in the New Testament. It was the Catholic Church which declared, by the authority given by Jesus Christ Himself that the New Testament scriptures are the inerrent work of God. This very New Testament that you proclaim was preserved pristine through the mellenia and given to you by the Catholic Church. These false doctrines of men from the 16th century that you follow are leading you astray.

I will pray for the Holy Spirit to remove the scales from your eyes and lead you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Yours in Christ.

 

[Gene_C]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the kind words! I will look for your reply on Thursday morning, New York time.

Grace and peace,
Gene

 

[sonseeker]

Gene C.:

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the kind words! I will look for your reply on Thursday morning, New York time.

Grace and peace,
Gene

Gene,

I’ll tell you about me later, as the answers to your questions are compelling me to write them down.

You say that 1 Jn 5:16 is “only difficult if one believes in eternal security.” That is true only if you know for certain that the death being spoken of by John is spiritual death. It is important here to establish that I believe there are two deaths presented in Scripture—**physical death and spiritual death. **Would you agree with that?

We are simply not told by John which death this is; one may assume that it is spiritual death, but that is not good thinking; one may also assume that it is physical death; that, too, is not good thinking. Better to say I don’t know; there is nothing wrong in that admission. In the James 1 passage, James, too, speaks of a sin leading to death. The same logic applies to the James 1 passage, as to 1 John 5 passage. But, let’s not throw in the towel just yet.

Yesterday, you asked me to explain the judgment mentioned in 1 Cor 11:27-32. Let me expand on that a bit more.

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

I stated that, “that is temporal discipline." Here we see that if one takes communion in an unworthy manner, the Lord may cause him to become weak and sick, and even die (sleep, as you know, being a euphemism for physical death). And there may be others, of which, like James and John, we are not told.

Because of that, and because I cannot think of a passage anywhere in the N.T. that speaks to God putting a believer to death spiritually, I can say with greater certainty that the death spoken of by James and John is more likely to be physical than spiritual (though I cannot be absolutely certain). I also believe that answers your question in para. 9 “can we pass from life back to death?” I say no, we cannot pass from life back to death.

As far as the prodigal son, I would picture that the same (if you want me to unpack that parable, I will). As far as the unforgiving servant, note his punishment in Mt 18:34 “…handed him over to the torturers, until he should repay all that was owed him.” He was not handed over to the executioner; his punishment was temporal not eternal. God does punish us temporally, and, sometimes He gives His people what they want though it is not good for them. As in the Lk 15 parable (see also Ps 106:15).

As far as Rom 8:12-17, with our focus being sin to death, v13 may be another type of sin that leads to physical death that Paul does not elaborate on; I don’t know.

It is not prudent to scrap a doctrine in Scripture that is clearly taught because of some verses that are clearly enigmatic.

Have I resolved this for you?

God Bless You Gene,

Bill

 

[Gene_C]

Bill,

You said: “Have I resolved this for you?” Actually, Bill, I was hoping to resolve things for you! J

First, you said: *“It is important here to establish that I believe there are two deaths presented in Scripture—**physical death and spiritual death. ***Would you agree with that?” Agreed!

Then you stated: “We are simply not told by John which death this is; one may assume that it is spiritual death, but that is not good thinking; one may also assume that it is physical death; that, too, is not good thinking. Better to say I don’t know; there is nothing wrong in that admission.”

If it is spiritual death, then there is definitely something wrong with saying you don’t know or that it is physical death. If it is spiritual death, the fate of a person’s soul is at stake. That is what OSAS does; it puts a person’s soul in jeopardy by giving them a false sense of security.

But let’s assume its physical death. So what you are saying is that if a Christian falls into sin, sin that leads to death, they are taken home to heaven as their “temporal discipline.” Their discipline is to be in the Presence of God in heaven. That really doesn’t sound like discipline. It sounds like glory!

I know what the typical answer to this is. It is that we lose our…rewards! We are ashamed in the Presence of the Lord because we did not live the life He wanted us to live. We get into heaven because all of our sins were forgiven at the moment we first believed. From then on, sin cannot separate us from God. It only separates us from His fellowship. That is a nice doctrine to believe. And I would like to believe it, except that it is found nowhere in the New Testament! Bill, please show me the verses that say all of our sins are forgiven at once.

I know where scholars get this teaching. It has to do with Greek grammar and the tenses of the words used to describe justification. It is a once-for-all act because of the aorist tense. (To believe in a doctrine not because it is clearly taught in the passages of Scripture but because it is taught in the grammar of Scripture is a stretch, a very long stretch.) In contrast to this false doctrine, Peter tells us that we have been cleansed from our PAST sins, and John tells us we need to confess our PRESENT sins.

There is a once-for-all event that happens to the Christian, though: Baptism. It is a once-for-all event that can never be repeated. But we do sin after Baptism and God has provided a remedy, the Sacrament of Reconciliation. And then we can enjoy the Presence, the Real Presence of the Lord in the Holy Eucharist! Praise God!

But you are right about temporal discipline for Christians. It happens in this life, as you have stated, and it also happens in the next life. Its called Purgatory.

But we’ll save that for a later post. This one is too long already.

What do you think?

Grace and peace,

Gene

P.S. You are right about the Scriptures not telling us everything. Some things are left unsaid. There is a reason for that. The Word of God, the Teaching of the Apostles that was given to them by our Lord, was passed down orally through preaching and teaching, and through the written documents of the NT. The NT did not cover everything, say, how we are to baptize, how to celebrate the Lord’s Supper, the order of Sunday worship, because these things were taught orally and were not in dispute.