Arguments needed against voluntary euthanasia

[Bradski]

In a Godless universe, Brad, aren’t values imposed by us rather than intrinsic attributes? If we exist by chance there seems no objective reason for regarding anything as sacred or even valuable because there is no reason why reason itself exists! It may have survival value but there again survival value is simply a human concept which is arbitrary in presupposing life is worth living!

All you have to do is imagine losing your faith and then tell me if your friends and your family then have no value. That is a nonsensical proposition.

Just as nonsensical as it is for you to suggest that, as far as I am concerned, there is no value in my friends and family.

My family has more value to me than yours does. And vice versa. If you want to insist that we are all equally valuable, then tell me if you would save your children from a burning building or mine. You would obviously save yours first, so you yourself place more value on them.

 

[STT]

In a Godless universe, Brad, aren’t values imposed by us rather than intrinsic attributes? If we exist by chance there seems no objective reason for regarding anything as sacred or even valuable because there is no reason why reason itself exists! It may have survival value but there again survival value is simply a human concept which is arbitrary in presupposing life is worth living!

What sort of meaning does a universe with God offer? Well, you go to Heaven and have a happy everlasting life with God. Is that all you mean with meaning?

 

[josh987654321]

I think you have made some very valid points in your posts. And the slippery slope argument, as it specifically refers to euthanasia, definately needs to be discussed.

If I may, without myself taking the discussion into a different direction, compare it to abortion. I have zero problem with a woman having an abortion a few days after conception, but would not support an abortion a few days before completion of the pregnancy. Ask me where to draw the line and I have to admit that I cannot.

Likewise with euthanasia. I support someones right to end their own life under certain conditions. But there is no definitive dividing line between what should be allowed and what could be allowed.

Whether rules are rigidly enforced is a fair point. Whether one believes in God or not is up to the individual. But I don’t think anyone considers euthanasia because they believe that life has no value in itself. It may not have value at the time if you are suffering terribly with no hope of a cure, but in itself?

You’d have to be in a pretty desperate position to believe there was no value in life.

Thank you Bradski, I think you make an excellent point here, and myself, I have a problem with abortion any time after conception. But I think you make a good point that many can miss.

If it’s okay to abort a child 1 week, why not 2 weeks? or 3 weeks? 4, 5 etc? what changed? It’s completely arbitrary.

So once it’s allowed on extremely rare basis, people start to be desensitized to it, they start introducing cases that are on the line and just over it in order to push the line further and further, and quite logically they say, there is nothing that separate a 1 week old from a 1 week, 1 day old, in fact, a 1 week, 1 day old are probably at the exact same level of development (or less) as the 1 week old you allowed to be killed just yesterday etc etc.

So the slippery slope is absolutely real no matter how strict the guidelines are.

And it’s the same with Euthanasia, it starts out with very rare cases, but where do they draw the line and who draws this line and on what grounds?

Apparently Victoria are debating it, I desperately hope they don’t introduce euthanasia legislation, not even an iota. It’s of vital importance as it will go the way of abortion. I have no doubt.

I also used to work a bit in a Nursing Home and I know this will be abused, and will aid much and extremely grave injustices. It truly will harm the most weak and vulnerable.

The key word is ‘suicide’ in assisted suicide, it’s suicide, what do we tell someone who is thinking about suicide? “Do it, Jump, it’s hopeless for you!” or “Don’t do it, there is hope, have hope, it’s never over until it’s over, don’t give up!”.

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Bradski]

I was reading about Victoria today. And you probably know Andrew Denton’s push to have it accepted. He makes a lot of sense.

But I can see a lot of problems so I would like to see how they would be addressed before it passes.

Your point about us being desensitised to it is valid. But then again, I think we need to be more accepting of death in any case. It may be that at some time we all make the decision, as a matter of course, whether we let nature take its course or we take matters into our own hands.

I certainly claim the right to do so in any case. And that is the reason I support it. Who am I to say that I can make my own decisions on ending my life, but no-one else can. That would be hypocritical.

 

[carn]

Ask me where to draw the line and I have to admit that I cannot.

Likewise with euthanasia. I support someones right to end their own life under certain conditions. But there is no definitive dividing line between what should be allowed and what could be allowed.

But drawing a line and defending it with credible threats of punishment in case of breach has to be done, if one wants to regulate such slippery slope situations. And for that, the lines must be accessible to evidence and must not be such, that they fall due to contradiction with other principles.

E.g. if one would allow euthanasia with the sole limitation that only a doctor might do it after a patient verbally or in writing with no need for further witnesses became his patient and verbally or in writing with no need for further witnesses requested euthanasia under certain circumstances, this would in a few decades at latest end up being “any doctor can kill anyone remotely qualifying as his patient whenever he pleases”.

That’s because afterwards the legality would hinge also upon what was said between doctor and the one now dead while they were alone; but for that the doctor that maybe has to be prosecuted is the only remaining witness and simply can therefore decline to answer, leaving prosecution without any way to determine whether person now dead actually requested verbally euthanasia.

E.g. if one would allow euthanasia after 3 doctors independently offered at least 1 week spaced apart “illness is cruel enough for patient to get euthansia”-diagnosises, the rule would be prone to attack, as one just legally imposed a at least 3 weeks (which might be longer if there are few doctors willing to help in the process, which for example catholics maybe should not) waiting period upon someone who is suffering from cruel circumstances (his illness) thereby by force of law prolonging the cruel circumstances; hence, attack due to state imposing cruel and unusual punishment on the basis, there is no real need for 3, cause 2 independent doctor opinions are sufficient, meaning the 1 additional week is just unnecessary cruelness.

So one has to draw lines and make a good choice where and how to draw them.

 

[Bradski]

So one has to draw lines and make a good choice where and how to draw them.

No argument from me on that point Carn. With you 100%.

 

[josh987654321]

I was reading about Victoria today. And you probably know Andrew Denton’s push to have it accepted. He makes a lot of sense.

I have heard of Andrew Denton before, I remember him talking about it on the Bolt Report one time.

But I can see a lot of problems so I would like to see how they would be addressed before it passes.

They cannot be addressed, if it does pass, it will be under the claim that they have addressed it and devised a fool proof and water tight law, but it will be a lie, I can’t stop this legislation, I know it will cause tremendous injustice and harm if it is legislated.

Your point about us being desensitised to it is valid. But then again, I think we need to be more accepting of death in any case.

The irony, is that Assisted Suicide is for those who are not accepting of death, and not only that, but it is legislating for people to kill!, we are fallible creatures and there are abuses everywhere, now there is legislation for murderers. Kill an elderly man/woman’s spirit/hope and then take their very life.

Not to mention that there are already great stresses on the system and palliative care with our aging population, if one thinks this will not be abused, they are fooling themselves. Assisted Suicide sure is the cheaper option and easier option for all parties involved, except for those who have their lives taken who end up paying the ultimate price, and in such a hopeless and depressed state too. The Ultimate injustice.

It may be that at some time we all make the decision, as a matter of course, whether we let nature take its course or we take matters into our own hands.

Your not taking it into your own hands, your asking someone else to kill you. We all know how emotions flip flop.

I certainly claim the right to do so in any case. And that is the reason I support it. Who am I to say that I can make my own decisions on ending my life, but no-one else can. That would be hypocritical.

Nobody can stop you from killing yourself, we can try to talk you out of it and encourage you not to (And vice versa, others can encourage you to do it too) but ultimately when it comes to suicide, it’s on oneself, and generally if a man were about to commit suicide, any good person would pull the gun away from their head and tell them no.

Whereas Assisted suicide is quite different, in that it gets someone else to do it. To become a murderer.

Not only that, but the elderly are very vulnerable when they are put in a Nursing Home, if you don’t think this will be abused, you are fooling yourself, it will cause tremendous harm and injustice, I have no doubt.

To be honest, when I first read your response I was angry, angry because of my inability to articulate, angry because of the injustice such legislation I know will cause and angry because I know I can’t do a thing about it and angry because ‘I told you so’ doesn’t mean anything when life has already been taken. Nevertheless, ‘Jesus I trust in you’ and ‘Father forgive them, they know not what they do.’

I really hope this legislation doesn’t get passed.

If someone said they wanted to die, would you really pick up a gun and blow their head off? because don’t kid yourself, a pill is the same deal as a noose or a bullet to the head and when it is logically about a persons autonomy, if you do not give full autonomy and thus allow it in any and all circumstances somebody asks for it, than you yourself are being a hypocrite, essentially you are already saying you know better than some people when they ask for assisted suicide to deny some and not others.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[tonyrey]

In a Godless universe, Brad, aren’t values imposed by us rather than intrinsic attributes? If we exist by chance there seems no objective reason for regarding anything as sacred or even valuable because there is no reason why reason itself exists! It may have survival value but there again survival value is simply a human concept which is arbitrary in presupposing life is worth living!

Not at all. It becomes an emotional attachment with no rational foundation. If we exist by chance values are merely human constructs and have no scientific or rational significance.

Just as nonsensical as it is for you to suggest that, as far as I am concerned, there is no value in my friends and family.

My family has more value to me than yours does. And vice versa. If you want to insist that we are all equally valuable, then tell me if you would save your children from a burning building or mine. You would obviously save yours first, so you yourself place more value on them. All you have to do is imagine losing your faith and then tell me if your friends and your family then have no value. That is a nonsensical proposition.

Then you reject the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity? You would let an entire city be destroyed rather than let your family be killed? That is hardly an argument in favour of atheism…

 

[tonyrey]

In a Godless universe, Brad, aren’t values imposed by us rather than intrinsic attributes? If we exist by chance there seems no objective reason for regarding anything as sacred or even valuable because there is no reason why reason itself exists! It may have survival value but there again survival value is simply a human concept which is arbitrary in presupposing life is worth living!

What sort of meaning does a universe with God offer? Well, you go to Heaven and have a happy everlasting life with God. Is that all you mean with meaning?

Far more than that! Life in this world becomes far more valuable and significant because it is no longer a meaningless accident which leads to total extinction after a few years on this planet. Truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love are no longer mere abstract nouns and human inventions but realities which inspire us to seek perfection in everything we do. In the words of John Keats, this is “a vale of soul-making” in which we can develop as persons and create - as far as we can - harmony and happiness in this world rather than a hell on earth caused by pride, greed, selfishness and lack of love for others. These are not just fictions but facts which are more valuable and meaningful than power, wealth and pleasure. Without the spiritual dimension we are no more than freaks of nature which disappear at death as if we had never existed. Evil triumphs and the diabolical injustice in society is never rectified. Negativity reigns supreme…

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Far more than that! Life in this world becomes far more valuable and significant because it is no longer a meaningless accident which leads to total extinction after a few years on this planet. Truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love are no longer mere abstract nouns and human inventions but realities which inspire us to seek perfection in everything we do. In the words of John Keats, this is “a vale of soul-making” in which we can develop as persons and create - as far as we can - harmony and happiness in this world rather than a hell on earth caused by pride, greed, selfishness and lack of love for others. These are not just fictions but facts which are more valuable and meaningful than power, wealth and pleasure. Without the spiritual dimension we are no more than freaks of nature which disappear at death as if we had never existed. Evil triumphs and the diabolical injustice in society is never rectified. Negativity reigns supreme…

 

[tonyrey]

Far more than that! Life in this world becomes far more valuable and significant because it is no longer a meaningless accident which leads to total extinction after a few years on this planet. Truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love are no longer mere abstract nouns and human inventions but realities which inspire us to seek perfection in everything we do. In the words of John Keats, this is “a vale of soul-making” in which we can develop as persons and create - as far as we can - harmony and happiness in this world rather than a hell on earth caused by pride, greed, selfishness and lack of love for others. These are not just fictions but facts which are more valuable and meaningful than power, wealth and pleasure. Without the spiritual dimension we are no more than freaks of nature which disappear at death as if we had never existed. Evil triumphs and the diabolical injustice in society is never rectified. Negativity reigns supreme…

Thanks, Christine. It baffles me how anyone can believe atheism is a form of liberation. It imprisons us in a closed system in which we are impotent spectators of forces beyond our control. All our thoughts, choices, actions and decisions are supposed to be due to natural causes from the moment we are born to the moment until the moment we disappear forever. In such a world there is no such thing as “voluntary euthanasia” for the simple reason that free will doesn’t exist! Arguments against suicide and mercy killing aren’t required because we aren’t responsible for our behaviour in any respect. We are alleged to be slaves of physical necessity yet there is one problem. If we cannot choose what to believe how can we be sure fatalism and determinism are true? Regardless of our ideology what guarantee do we have that we are infallible? Or even likely to be on the right track? There are far more ways of being mistaken than finding the right answer… In other words it doesn’t pay even sceptics to be dogmatic. Their negativity has a boomerang effect - and there is no doubt whatsoever that is true!

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Your not taking it into your own hands, your asking someone else to kill you.

Yes, and we do that all the time, if the task we want to perform requires outside help. There is nothing special about asking for assistance.

Nobody can stop you from killing yourself, we can try to talk you out of it and encourage you not to (And vice versa, others can encourage you to do it too) but ultimately when it comes to suicide, it’s on oneself, and generally if a man were about to commit suicide, any good person would pull the gun away from their head and tell them no.

Not that simple. People, especially the ones who are too old and frail are unable to carry out their desires. That is why Dr. Kevorkian’s machine was successful. He set up the machine, and the patient herself could activate it with minimum action on her part. The trouble is that you (in general) still objected to this solution.

Whereas Assisted suicide is quite different, in that it gets someone else to do it. To become a murderer.

Murder is a legal term. If the assisted suicide (euthanasia) is legal, it is NOT a murder.

Not only that, but the elderly are very vulnerable when they are put in a Nursing Home, if you don’t think this will be abused, you are fooling yourself, it will cause tremendous harm and injustice, I have no doubt.

That is just conjecture, albeit a logical one. The point is that you do not address the concept of voluntary euthanasia, you keep talking about the case when it is NOT voluntary any more.

 

[STT]

Far more than that! Life in this world becomes far more valuable and significant because it is no longer a meaningless accident which leads to total extinction after a few years on this planet.

Do you get any meaning otherwise?

Truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love are no longer mere abstract nouns and human inventions but realities which inspire us to seek perfection in everything we do.

These are at the end abstract objects which we can experience. I think that (bold part) is applicable to atheist too. Moreover you didn’t explain how seeking perfection could make life meaningful.

In the words of John Keats, this is “a vale of soul-making” in which we can develop as persons and create - as far as we can - harmony and happiness in this world rather than a hell on earth caused by pride, greed, selfishness and lack of love for others.

That is an insult to atheist. Of course they have love for each other and care to have a life with harmony and happiness.

These are not just fictions but facts which are more valuable and meaningful than power, wealth and pleasure.

You just keep saying that these are meaningful but that doesn’t make them.

Without the spiritual dimension we are no more than freaks of nature which disappear at death as if we had never existed.

How much do you know about spiritual worlds? Living an everlasting life is boring and it becomes like a Hell after a while. That worst than dying.

Evil triumphs and the diabolical injustice in society is never rectified.

Where on earth do you see these things?

 

[carn]

You just keep saying that these are meaningful but that doesn’t make them.

The tricky thing about being allmighty, allpowerful and allgood is not to make a stone to heavy to life for oneself; the tricky thing is actually knowing what is truly good even in spite of all the logical caveats human brains can come up with.

Where on earth do you see these things?

Currently in the US several hundred thousands unborn humans are sacrificed each year so the ideals or idols the society craves for are satisfied.

Now tonyrey is probably a bit emotional about this amount of human sacrifice and therefore paints it as a bit too black; actually, the good 20th century trio of Hitler, Stalin and Mao handily beats us each by themselves; but the Aztecs must fear for the place of honor in the history of human sacrifice, cause currently they lead the category “human sacrifice explicit for supernatural reasons” (after all, Hitler, Stalin and Mao did not take part in that category) but our mumble-jumble idolozing of individual happiness (which requires that sacrifice of unborn humans) might slip into that and then their first place there might be in danger.

So tonyrey, please admit, we are currently only vying for Aztec evilness and yet have some room to Hitler, Stalin and Mao; its not as pitch black as you seem to think it is.

 

[goout]

The value of a human life is transcendent even of autonomy. The fact that a person has a free will and can make autonomous choices does not mean those faculties can be abused to take human life, even one’s own.
Unhinged from the good, assertion of autonomy does not work out too well.

 

[STT]

The tricky thing about being allmighty, allpowerful and allgood is not to make a stone to heavy to life for oneself; the tricky thing is actually knowing what is truly good even in spite of all the logical caveats human brains can come up with.

How that could be answer to my comment.

Currently in the US several hundred thousands unborn humans are sacrificed each year so the ideals or idols the society craves for are satisfied.

Now tonyrey is probably a bit emotional about this amount of human sacrifice and therefore paints it as a bit too black; actually, the good 20th century trio of Hitler, Stalin and Mao handily beats us each by themselves; but the Aztecs must fear for the place of honor in the history of human sacrifice, cause currently they lead the category “human sacrifice explicit for supernatural reasons” (after all, Hitler, Stalin and Mao did not take part in that category) but our mumble-jumble idolozing of individual happiness (which requires that sacrifice of unborn humans) might slip into that and then their first place there might be in danger.

So tonyrey, please admit, we are currently only vying for Aztec evilness and yet have some room to Hitler, Stalin and Mao; its not as pitch black as you seem to think it is.

Well, then think of Crusades. Jesus clearly mentioned to love your enemy. But the war was unavoidable. The ironic part is that the same God, Abrahamic one, encouraged people to get into the war.

 

[tonyrey]

The tricky thing about being allmighty, allpowerful and allgood is not to make a stone to heavy to life for oneself; the tricky thing is actually knowing what is truly good even in spite of all the logical caveats human brains can come up with.

Currently in the US several hundred thousands unborn humans are sacrificed each year so the ideals or idols the society craves for are satisfied.

Now tonyrey is probably a bit emotional about this amount of human sacrifice and therefore paints it as a bit too black; actually, the good 20th century trio of Hitler, Stalin and Mao handily beats us each by themselves; but the Aztecs must fear for the place of honor in the history of human sacrifice, cause currently they lead the category “human sacrifice explicit for supernatural reasons” (after all, Hitler, Stalin and Mao did not take part in that category) but our mumble-jumble idolozing of individual happiness (which requires that sacrifice of unborn humans)

So tonyrey, please admit, we are currently only vying for Aztec evilness and yet have some room to Hitler, Stalin and Mao; its not as pitch black as you seem to think it is.

Evil is not assessed by numbers or any other criterion. It is detestable and diabolical whenever, wherever and however it occurs yet in many cases - like the Aztecs - it is due to ignorance rather than malice.

 

[tonyrey]

How that could be answer to my comment.

Well, then think of Crusades. Jesus clearly mentioned to love your enemy. But the war was unavoidable. The ironic part is that the same God, Abrahamic one, encouraged people to get into the war.

It wasn’t the same God but a primitive concept of the Creator which existed before Jesus was born.

 

[tonyrey]

The value of a human life is transcendent even of autonomy. The fact that a person has a free will and can make autonomous choices does not mean those faculties can be abused to take human life, even one’s own.
Unhinged from the good, assertion of autonomy does not work out too well.

The whole point of human life is autonomy because it is the basis of our capacity for unselfish love. We alone determine our ultimate destiny even if it is contrary to God’s will.

 

[tonyrey]

Far more than that! Life in this world becomes far more valuable and significant because it is no longer a meaningless accident which leads to total extinction after a few years on this planet.

You can invent it but in the long run it leads nowhere…

Truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love are no longer mere abstract nouns and human inventions but realities which inspire us to seek perfection in everything we do

. These are at the end abstract objects which we can experience. I think that (bold part) is applicable to atheist too. Moreover you didn’t explain how seeking perfection could make life meaningful.

You seem to think “abstract” = “unreal”, a common mistake made by materialists. Do you think truth doesn’t exist? Atheists certainly seek perfection but it has no logical foundation in an absurd universe which exists by chance.

In the words of John Keats, this is “a vale of soul-making” in which we can develop as persons and create - as far as we can - harmony and happiness in this world rather than a hell on earth caused by pride, greed, selfishness and lack of love for others.

That is an insult to atheist. Of course they have love for each other and care to have a life with harmony and happiness.

Your comment is misguided. Did I imply atheists lack love and integrity? Sheer nonsense! They are often morally superior to believers but their love and integrity has no rational foundation if we exist by chance.

These are not just fictions but facts which are more valuable and meaningful than power, wealth and pleasure.

You just keep saying that these are meaningful but that doesn’t make them.

Do you believe they are meaningless? If so why?

Without the spiritual dimension we are no more than freaks of nature which disappear at death as if we had never existed.

How much do you know about spiritual worlds? Living an everlasting life is boring and it becomes like a Hell after a while. That worst than dying.

How much do **you **know about spiritual worlds?Nothing whatsoever because you don’t believe they exist! At least I am giving reasons whereas you are simply being negative yet you are contradicting yourself by praising atheists for loving each other and caring to have a life with harmony and happiness.

Evil triumphs and the diabolical injustice in society is never rectified.

Where on earth do you see these things?

Precisely on earth! Many innocent people are exploited, tortured and murdered while evil people become rich and are never punished for their crimes.