Arguments needed against voluntary euthanasia

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You can invent it but in the long run it leads nowhere…
Invent? We haven’t invented love, mercy, hate, etc. each has survival value granted by nature.
You seem to think “abstract” = “unreal”, a common mistake made by materialists.
I didn’t say that abstract=unreal.
Do you think truth doesn’t exist?
Yes.
Atheists certainly seek perfection but it has no logical foundation in an absurd universe which exists by chance.
Why? What is the problem with atheism? You didn’t answer my question that why seeking perfection makes life meaningful.
Your comment is misguided. Did I imply atheists lack love and integrity? Sheer nonsense! They are often morally superior to believers but their love and integrity has no rational foundation if we exist by chance.
What is your foundation? Love, good, etc just have survival value and we human share them similarly. It is nonsense to say that love among believer has a foundation and not among non-believer.
Do you believe they are meaningless? If so why?
As a theist, the burden is on you to show that they make life meaningful. It was you who started to argue with Bradski on this topic.
How much do **you **know about spiritual worlds?Nothing whatsoever because you don’t believe they exist! At least I am giving reasons whereas you are simply being negative yet you are contradicting yourself by praising atheists for loving each other and caring to have a life with harmony and happiness.
I do believe in spiritual world. I believe that life generally becomes hard after a while due to lack of meaning whether it is here or somewhere else.
 
Evil is not assessed by numbers or any other criterion. It is detestable and diabolical whenever, wherever and however it occurs yet in many cases - like the Aztecs - it is due to ignorance rather than malice.
Ok.

But i think still that its a useful reminder whenever falling into the notion of “we are better than others before us” to realize, that one can argue that just like the Aztecs we have state-encouraged and organized human sacrifice for purpose of keeping up society according to some concepts/things potentially only springing from our imagination.
 
Friends I need some help. I am trying to help one of my friend to develop some arguments against Peter Singer’ argument supporting voluntary euthanasia. Here I quote Singer’s arguments:

Why do we consider killing an innocent person to be wrong?

The answer is twofold.

First, killing someone is a violation of their autonomy. But in the case of voluntary euthanasia, a person’s autonomy is not taken away but supported.

Second, killing an innocent person deprives them of the good things in life they would have otherwise experienced. At this juncture, Singer makes an important qualification. He is not an “absolutist” about autonomy. If a healthy young person is lovesick or depressed, they may temporarily feel that life is not worth living. However, there is much reason to suspect these feelings will pass.

Any arguments to refute it?
There is no such thing as euthanasia, there is only malthanasia. (Why is that not a legitimate word). We discuss the philosophy of euthanasia, but there is no such thing, really, when it comes down to the human existence, we should instead discuss malthanasia.
 
How that could be answer to my comment.
You seemed to imply, that even if God existed this would not provide any meaning to life probably because God declaring by fiat this or that to be the meaning of life is not from your POV a valid argument.

But the issue is, that God does not declare by fiat, but that He actually knows the true meaning of life and just informs us what it is with us often being unable to understand; that is also implied by allknowing.
Well, then think of Crusades. Jesus clearly mentioned to love your enemy. But the war was unavoidable. The ironic part is that the same God, Abrahamic one, encouraged people to get into the war.
Pointing out potential/presumed errors of others does not change the gravity of our own errors. And pointing out potential/presumed errors of God is useless as we are in no position to actually evaluate whether God had good reasons for some actions or not; besides not every single word in the bible is plain verbatim truth, so we should be careful with using some things therein to construct “a case against God”.

Personally, i would prefer also not to have other people not judge me upon description of my actions kept orally for potentially several centuries, especially if one suspects that some parts are maybe not verbatim true. God deserves at least the same benefit of doubt as any other one deemed to be a “suspect” (and actually the world already directly failed in that at least once, so maybe repetitions should be avoided).
 
The whole point of human life is autonomy because it is the basis of our capacity for unselfish love. We alone determine our ultimate destiny even if it is contrary to God’s will.
The whole point of human life is union with God and others. Beatitude.
Human beings rightly have autonomy, but it is not the the highest good. Your autonomy does not override my right to exist.
In our existence we have a share of God’s own “I Am”. Autonomy is a part of that.
 
Ok.

But i think still that its a useful reminder whenever falling into the notion of “we are better than others before us” to realize, that one can argue that just like the Aztecs we have state-encouraged and organized human sacrifice for purpose of keeping up society according to some concepts/things potentially only springing from our imagination.
I entirely agree. There is less excuse for us because we claim to be more civilised and should respect the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
 
The whole point of human life is union with God and others. Beatitude.
Human beings rightly have autonomy, but it is not the the highest good. Your autonomy does not override my right to exist.
In our existence we have a share of God’s own “I Am”. Autonomy is a part of that.
The highest good is God! We cannot be fully united to Him unless we have the power to choose who to love. Without autonomy we would be incapable of the highest form of love which entails self-sacrifice, following the example of Jesus who suffered and died for us on the Cross. It doesn’t override anyone’s right to exist **unless it is abused **but it does enable us to respect the rights of others. Creative autonomy isn’t just a part because we are made in God’s image and share in His glorious freedom by transcending natural causes and shaping our own destiny. It is the very foundation of our likeness to our Creator without which we would be incapable of reaching heaven.
 
The highest good is God!
That is what I just said. 🤷
Originally Posted by goout View Post
The whole point of human life is union with God and others. Beatitude.
Human beings rightly have autonomy, but it is not the the highest good. Your autonomy does not override my right to exist.
In our existence we have a share of God’s own “I Am”. Autonomy is a part of that.
 
The highest good is God!
That is what I just said. 🤷
Originally Posted by goout View Post
The whole point of human life is union with God and others. Beatitude.
Human beings rightly have autonomy, but it is not the the highest good. Your autonomy does not override my right to exist.
In our existence we have a share of God’s own “I Am”. Autonomy is a part of that.
In response to this:
Originally Posted by tonyrey View Post
The whole point of human life is autonomy because it is the basis of our capacity for unselfish love. We alone determine our ultimate destiny even if it is contrary to God’s will.
The point of human life is not to be autonomous. It is to be united with God and others in the beatific vision. Autonomy is *part of *that.
🤷
Think of the implications of a philosophy that exalts autonomy as the point of human existence.
 
There is no such thing as euthanasia, there is only malthanasia. (Why is that not a legitimate word). We discuss the philosophy of euthanasia, but there is no such thing, really, when it comes down to the human existence, we should instead discuss malthanasia.
It should be dysthanasia because eu- is a Greek prefix (as in “euphoria”, the opposite of which is “dysphoria”). mal- is a Latin prefix (as in “malefactor”, the opposite of which is bene- (as in “benefactor”):
In medicine, dysthanasia means “bad death” and is considered a common fault of modern medicine: Dysthanasia occurs when a person who is dying has their biological life extended through technological means without regard to the person’s quality of life.
  • wikipedia
Of course euthanasia is a misnomer when deliberately putting a person to death is regarded as the solution to misery and suffering.
 
It should be dysthanasia because eu- is a Greek prefix (as in “euphoria”, the opposite of which is “dysphoria”). mal- is a Latin prefix (as in “malefactor”, the opposite of which is bene- (as in “benefactor”):
  • wikipedia
Of course euthanasia is a misnomer when deliberately putting a person to death is regarded as the solution to misery and suffering.
Apologies for mixing languages. (The only time Ive seen that done is with the word homosexual). I should have said kakothanasia from kakos (I did know that) which is the opposite of eu. Dys in Greek derives from “sink”. The opposite of which would be elevate or going up.

My point though is that all thanatos is kakos. All of it.
 
Apologies for mixing languages. (The only time Ive seen that done is with the word homosexual). I should have said kakothanasia from kakos (I did know that) which is the opposite of eu. Dys in Greek derives from “sink”. The opposite of which would be elevate or going up.

My point though is that all thanatos is kakos. All of it.
No need to apologise! I didn’t know dysthanasia (and orthotanasia) exist until I looked it up:
Dysthanasia is the term for futile or useless treatment, which does not benefit a terminal patient. It is a process through which one merely extends the dying process and not life per se. Consequently, patients have a prolonged and slow death, frequently accompanied by suffering, pain and anguish. When one invests in healing a patient who has no chance of cure, s/he is actually undermining the person’s dignity(1). Advanced measures and their limits should be assessed to benefit the patient and not to hold science as an end in itself(2).
Code:
  Euthanasia  is currently    conceptualized as an action that aims to end the life  of a human being taking    into account humanistic considerations in  relation to the person or society(3);    it is unethical and illegal in Brazil(2).  Nurses should be aware    of their ethical code, which clearly  prohibits (article 29): "Promoting euthanasia    or participating in  practice intended to facilitate a patient's death"(4).
Code:
  Orthotanasia  refers    to the art of promoting a humane and correct death, not  subjecting patients    to misthanasia or dysthanasia and not  abbreviating death either, that is, subjecting    them to euthanasia.  Its great challenge is to enable terminal patients to keep    their  dignity, where there is a commitment to the well being of patients in     the final phase of a disease(3).
Code:
  The  fundamentals    of professional practice are based on four bioethical  principles of the principlist    model and corroborate the promotion of  well being for people in the dying process:    autonomy, justice,  beneficence and nonmaleficence, and should guide professionals'     practices, reflections and attitudes(5).
scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0104-11692009000500003
 
Sorry I haven’t been able to keep up with this discussion as well as I would like, so forgive me for going back to page 7 where I left off.
Originally Posted by Vera_Ljuba (Post #100)

Originally Posted by spiderweb
*”Emotional” harm is very real and it cannot be measured.*In certain cases it may very well be. But we are not talking about emotional scars and trauma in general. The problem still is: “should I be allowed to make decisions for myself, and should I be allowed to get help from outsiders, if I am unable to carry out my decision?”.

The answer to your question is a “Yes” with qualifications. While everyone has a right to make decisions for themselves, almost all decisions affect other people. When a decision is made for myself (suicide) that causes unknown harmful affects to another person (according to the case study cited Post #91 even potentially another’s death), than no Government should allow this. The laws of a country or state should protect its citizens, not legalize something that will cause harm to its citizens. What gives anyone the right to cause pain to another person for their own personal “relief”? Why should the government legalize doing so? Would I have the right to sue the “assister” in another’s suicide for my emotional trauma that they assisted in causing? If not, why should the assister be protected? I think those are valid questions that need to be brought up.

A person has the right to get drunk. But when it negatively affects others, their “rights” stop. We have laws against public intoxication and drinking and driving which includes more than cars. Although it is mostly ignored, it is illegal to sell alcohol to someone who is already intoxicated (multiple penalties for the seller). But by law the intoxicated person is denied their “autonomous choice” for their own protection and the protection of others. We have the right to free speech. But at least in some places it is illegal to use free speech to “bully” others or to falsely yell “FIRE” in a public building. These are just a few examples but many more could be added.

So the real question is: “Why should any government make it legal for a person to harm other people (remaining family, friends, etc), when we have other laws that are based on the opposite premise?”

If voluntary euthanasia is universally legalized, than any laws pertaining to personal choices that affect other people can be taken off the books because by the voluntary euthanasia law autonomous “rights” of one person do supersede the rights of others. The government can never prevent suicide, bullying, drinking and driving, falsely yelling “fire” in a crowded building, or a hundred other things that a person can choose to do that harms others, but the government should never ever give it a stamp of approval by officially legalizing it or condoning the assistance of it. Like legalized abortion, legalized voluntary euthanasia is a hypocritical law which directly contradicts the basis of other laws at the foundational level. Instead of being a law for the good of all people, it promotes a view that it is ok to harm others as long as doing so helps you in some way. This directly undermines societal laws and that is not good for any society.
 
The answer to your question is a “Yes” with qualifications. While everyone has a right to make decisions for themselves, almost all decisions affect other people.
Certainly. But our number one duty is toward ourselves.

Just think about the announcement on every flight about the possible loss of cabin pressure. The stewardess tell you: as soon as the little yellow “cup” appears, put it unto your own face, and only when you are secure should you worry about others, even if that “other” is your young child. Your number one responsibility is toward yourself - and everything else is secondary.

And to equate the physical harm with emotional distress is simply incorrect. No one should be held responsible for someone else’s emotional reaction to your act, even if that act is suicide.

There are already laws on the books against defamation, slander, etc… and they are sufficient. No need for protecting against anything and everything that someone else might find emotionally distressing.
 
Originally Posted by Vera_Ljuba
Certainly. But our number one duty is toward ourselves.
Just think about the announcement on every flight about the possible loss of cabin pressure. The stewardess tell you: as soon as the little yellow “cup” appears, put it unto your own face, and only when you are secure should you worry about others, even if that “other” is your young child. Your number one responsibility is toward yourself – and everything else is secondary.
You cannot compare emergency protocols to voluntary euthanasia. Emergency protocols are intended to preserve the life and safety of all people involved as much as possible. Which life is being preserved with voluntary euthanasia? That analogy does not work because there is no comparison. A more accurate analogy using a similar circumstance is that the pilot who loves to fly, decides to die in the air. So he commits suicide on the plane with a hundred passengers on board. Would you be ok with his acting on his decision about his life in this regard?
And to equate the physical harm with emotional distress is simply incorrect. No one should be held responsible for someone else’s emotional reaction to your act, even if that act is suicide.
In some incidences, I would agree with you. However, the court systems routinely disagree. Emotional harm often times has physical manifestations similar to PTSD that can last for years or even for the rest of a person’s life. People are awarded restitution for loss of income, therapy sessions, medications, etc … due to the emotional harm caused to them by another person. The courts have set precedents in this regard for many years. Why should voluntary euthanasia be legally exempt from this? Why should the “assister” not be responsible for their choice to help take another person’s life?
There are already laws on the books against defamation, slander, etc… and they are sufficient. No need for protecting against anything and everything that someone else might find emotionally distressing.
There is no “might” about it. Death is always emotionally distressing. Untimely deaths and unexpected deaths are the most distressing. Imagine the person getting the phone call that their mother died because she chose to be euthanized. She chose not to inform her children of “her decision”, and neither did the doctor due to patient confidentiality. Defamation, slander, etc… does not even come close to describing the emotional distress that person would feel.

But if it is ok to cause emotional distress to someone in the case of voluntary euthanasia then are you prepared to remove all laws that protect others in this regard? All discrimination laws should be removed from the books. Also laws for slander, defamation……actually all laws. I should have the autonomy to do whatever I want because it is my choice for myself regardless of how it may harm anyone else. “My number one duty is towards myself”.

Since you (or anyone else) didn’t answer, I’m going to ask the question again:
“Why should any government make it legal for a person to harm other people when we have other laws that are based on the opposite premise to protect those same people from harm?”
 
Since you (or anyone else) didn’t answer, I’m going to ask the question again:
“Why should any government make it legal for a person to harm other people when we have other laws that are based on the opposite premise to protect those same people from harm?”
Good question. It is totally insane. Sanctioned murder as I already said, and even worse, forcing a doctor, who has taken the oath to preserve life, to become a murderer.
 
You cannot compare emergency protocols to voluntary euthanasia.
Why not? The basic principle is the same: “my life, my decision are primary. Everything else is secondary”. My decision does no actual, physical harm to others, and if they feel that the action caused a distress, it is their job to deal with it.
In some incidences, I would agree with you. However, the court systems routinely disagree. Emotional harm often times has physical manifestations similar to PTSD that can last for years or even for the rest of a person’s life.
Apples and oranges. The courts only agree when there is a physical harm.
People are awarded restitution for loss of income, therapy sessions, medications, etc … due to the emotional harm caused to them by another person.
What do you suggest as a solution? Revive the euthanized people, and then execute them for the stress they created?
The courts have set precedents in this regard for many years. Why should voluntary euthanasia be legally exempt from this? Why should the “assister” not be responsible for their choice to help take another person’s life?
Because it is voluntary.
There is no “might” about it. Death is always emotionally distressing.
Simply not true. I had the opportunity to hold my mother’s hand in her final moments, and there was no distress. I accepted that her life was coming to the end. There is nothing distressing about it.
But if it is ok to cause emotional distress to someone in the case of voluntary euthanasia then are you prepared to remove all laws that protect others in this regard?
The distress is not caused by the act, it is caused by the irrational response of the person. The rational response is to accept that the person who chose the euthanasia did it for her own reasons, and no one else is qualified to override it. By the way… for the Christians the rational response would be an overriding joy, that the sufferer is now with God, and all her sufferings are forgotten.
“Why should any government make it legal for a person to harm other people when we have other laws that are based on the opposite premise to protect those same people from harm?”
You play fast and loose with the word “harm”.
 
Good question. It is totally insane. Sanctioned murder as I already said, and even worse, forcing a doctor, who has taken the oath to preserve life, to become a murderer.
If a person is experiencing excruciating pain doctors are justified in administering an anaesthetic which may lead to death but that is a side effect and not their intention. It isn’t always possible to know the precise effect a drug will have on a individual yet to do nothing to alleviate suffering is certainly wrong. If the illness is terminal it is the lesser of two evils if death occurs unexpectedly.
 
You cannot compare emergency protocols to voluntary euthanasia
Your decision may well do a lot of harm because you consider yourself more important than anyone else. You believe you’re entitled to end your life regardless of the effect it has on others. I had a friend who committed suicide after arranging for her twelve year old son to be adopted by a lawyer and his wife. In addition to the boy’s misery the lawyer’s daughters also suffered. A few months later their mother also committed suicide. Sheer coincidence - or was it contagious?
 
If a person is experiencing excruciating pain doctors are justified in administering an anaesthetic which may lead to death but that is a side effect and not their intention. It isn’t always possible to know the precise effect a drug will have on a individual yet to do nothing to alleviate suffering is certainly wrong. If the illness is terminal it is the lesser of two evils if death occurs unexpectedly.
I agree with you. Often terminally ill people are given morphine to ease them over to the other side. This happened to my mother and my sister. That is different than euthanasia though. These people are planning their own death and a doctor is the executioner.
 
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