Arm around spouse/ date/"nuzzling" in pews during Mass?

[jwinch2]

That is an appalling lack of charity.

What is even more appalling in terms of Charity is projecting motivations onto the behaviors that people exhibit which you do not happen to like, particularly when no one is committing sin.

The world doesn’t revolve around you, what you want, or what you think, and neither does the Holy Mass that is held in remembrance of the sacrificial love of Our Lord.

Exactly. So stop worrying about whether or not someone has their arm around someone else and pay attention to the Mass.

Either way, people should stop stating that because someone commits x,y,z behavior that they must not be focused on the Mass. Multiple people have already stated that they interact with their spouse during the Mass based on occurrences during the Mass, not because they are ignoring it.

If you can’t do that, then either offer it up or sit somewhere else. Pretty simple really. I have fought ADD all of my life and understand distraction. At Mass, I have had to move for a variety of reasons including loud and undisciplined kids; lousy, off key, and loud singers; and people who don’t bathe often enough. As a result, my wife and I go out of our way to get to Mass very early so that we can sit up front and have time to pray before people start showing up in large numbers. I fail to see how this is different.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Our rule is that it is like having a cupcake. You don’t enjoy it in front of other people unless you’re willing to share.

Displays of affection of the type and duration that would be allowed with someone else’s kid under Called to Protect guidelines would be OK: squeezing a hand or holding hands for a prayer, a side hug or a pat on the back, that kind of thing. Much more than that (a little more would be OK) falls into the category of making other people watch you enjoy what you’re not willing to share with them.

You don’t know that someone near you isn’t feeling the loss or absence of their spouse. Try to show the kind of affection that you’d be able to extend to them, too. Otherwise, don’t do it at Mass.

I think this is a very kind and charitable attitude, Easter Joy. Thank you.

And I also understand that there are times when a spouse is ill, leaning her head on her husband’s shoulder for support on a rare occasion, as someone mentioned earlier, as well as elderly people needing special assistance. I wasn’t in any way referring to that or to some one guiding his wife out towards the line to receive. (And we can’t see a couple holding hands if we’re behind them, so I wasn’t wondering about that.) And of course, during the Peace, there is a wonderful time to shake hands, and some to reverently kiss one another in peace.

I just wondered about those things mentioned in my original post, the arm around the spouse/the arm hanging over the pew, a kind of kicked back, I’m relaxed now appearance, followed by nuzzling, hair patting, whispers in the ear the entire Mass. PAD’s, public displays of affection have a wide spectrum. It was the rather extreme type I was referring to.

Kindness goes both ways, and I think your attitude of everyone being aware of other’s feelings is a good way to think about these kinds of questions. I came from a background of fundamentalist pentecostalism where everyone behaved very casually, and there was no sense of the sacramental or the mysterious at all, so that when I noticed the above happening a few times, I was surprised.

Peace to all here,

Kathryn Ann

 

[Orogeny]

That is an appalling lack of charity. The world doesn’t revolve around you, what you want, or what you think, and neither does the Holy Mass that is held in remembrance of the sacrificial love of Our Lord.

Too bad you choose (and it is YOUR choice) to read it that way. I have never, and I mean NEVER, had the attitude that you have CHOSEN to apply to me. Ever.

Let me make this as clear as possible for those who want to find conflict with me. If you are distracted by something I am doing in Mass, that is your issue. I don’t do anything that would be distracting (ok, my kids would say that my singing is extremely distracting, but I digress!) to anyone I know. Remember, we are talking about having my arm around my wife during Mass.

Distractions are personal and have to be dealt with by the person being distracted. For example, bearer, I can get distracted by what people, women especially, wear to Mass. I sit in the front pew because my 88 year old mother likes to sit there, so I have the opportunity to see many people during Communion. After I recieve and return to my pew, I kneel, close my eyes and pray. I don’t have to close my eyes - there is nothing in any Church document that calls for that, but I do get distracted. Rather than make a fuss about what people wear, I deal with my distraction myself. I would expect of any adult to do the same.

If that makes me self-centered, so be it.

Peace

Tim

 

[EasterJoy]

…we are talking about having my arm around my wife during Mass…

You could have an arm around a child at Mass. If that is the level of contact you’re talking about, I don’t see that as something that is problematic. If you thought someone near you looked bothered, it would be gracious to refrain for their sake, but with no indication that anyone is bothered, I’d not assume that anyone would be.

Don’t rest your hand on her backside, though. That’s a little too much towards enjoying the cupcake, so to speak. Stick with things a son might also do, though, and you will be fine. You do not have to be so formal as to give her the presonal space due to a total stranger.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Now, now, you should’ve just been focused on the Mass instead of that couple! You evil Pharisee! You know, WWJD, man…

I’ve actually gotten much better about ignoring the distractions, otherwise I’d be starting a new thread every other Sunday to complain about the Farleys having yet another impromptu family reunion before Mass and chatting away until shortly after the first reading had started (they’re not quite that bad, but it does often go on until after the entrance procession). When it comes to excessive PDA’s, though, my concern is more for my kids’ sake than mine. When they’re getting exposed to racier content at Mass than we allow them to see on TV, that’s a big problem. There’s no reason why sitting near the Andersons should cause us to have to have a talk about the birds and the bees over Sunday breakfast.

 

[Lady_Love]

Let me ask you this: If a child were to nuzzle their mom or put their arm around her would that be considered a distraction?

Watch out for the MASS POLICE!

 

[bearer]

What is even more appalling in terms of Charity is projecting motivations onto the behaviors that people exhibit which you do not happen to like, particularly when no one is committing sin. Exactly. So stop worrying about whether or not someone has their arm around someone else and pay attention to the Mass.

I’m not projecting anything. I don’t care what they’re motivations are; that’s irrelevant. I’m saying it is irreverent and disrespectful to Christ to focus on your spouse at His expense.

I’m not easily distracted at Mass. During the Liturgy of the Word, my eyes and ears are on the celebrant, lector, and the cantor. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, my eyes and ears are on the celebrant at the altar. I’m not bothering with this thread because of me–I’m here because of Christ.

Either way, people should stop stating that because someone commits x,y,z behavior that they must not be focused on the Mass. Multiple people have already stated that they interact with their spouse during the Mass based on occurrences during the Mass, not because they are ignoring it.

If you can’t do that, then either offer it up or sit somewhere else. Pretty simple really. I have fought ADD all of my life and understand distraction. At Mass, I have had to move for a variety of reasons including loud and undisciplined kids; lousy, off key, and loud singers; and people who don’t bathe often enough. As a result, my wife and I go out of our way to get to Mass very early so that we can sit up front and have time to pray before people start showing up in large numbers. I fail to see how this is different.

Like I said, I don’t know why people do the things they do, and I don’t care. What I’m saying is to be reverent. If you were on Calvary watching Christ die on the cross, would you nuzzle your spouse? Don’t do it at Mass!

 

[EasterJoy]

Let me ask you this: If a child were to nuzzle their mom or put their arm around her would that be considered a distraction?

Watch out for the MASS POLICE!

You’re not suggesting that adults should observe the same decorum that would be expected of a toddler? If my 7th grader were to “nuzzle” me during Mass, I’d tell him to stop. That is not appropriate for someone who’s reached the age of reason.

We don’t ask our altar servers to wear neutral-colored shoes because there is something wrong with some bright color in one’s Sunday shoes. We do it because it distracts from Mass to see blinking sneakers or pink glittery shoes sparkling below the hem of the albs at the altar. This isn’t about the “Mass Police”, either. This is a discussion about what is and isn’t appropriate behavior and what a typical person would find distracting, because some people really want to know what they can do to avoid making concentration on the Mass more difficult for other people, including their spouse.

 

[jwinch2]

Don’t do it at Mass!

And you get to be the judge of what is and is not reverent because?

 

[bearer]

As a follow-up to my last post, I recommend reading this talk by Cardinal Francis Arinze, The Eucharistic Mystery Calls for Our Response, given in 2006. At the time, Cardinal Arinze was Cardinal Prefect of the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments and gave this speech as a result of issues of irreverence by both clergy and laity in churches, and especially during Mass.

I recommend reading parts 3 and 4, particularly the following passages:

Adoration is consequent on our Eucharistic faith. If we believe that the Sacrifice of the Mass is a sacramental re-presentation of the Sacrifice of the Cross, and that Jesus is really, truly and substantially present in this august Sacrament, adoration is going to follow.

…

The Mass is the supreme act of adoration, praise and thanksgiving which humanity can offer to God. We owe everything to God: life, family, talents, work, country. Moreover God has sent us his only-begotten Son for our salvation. At Mass we offer God this supreme acknowledgment of his transcendent majesty and thanksgiving for his magnificent goodness towards us.

…

The way in which we celebrate the Mass has great importance. This applies first of all to the priest celebrant, but also to deacons, minor ministers, choirs, readers and every other participant, each in that person’s own role.

…

Everyone can thus see why the tabernacle of the Most Blessed Sacrament is located in a central or at least prominent place in our churches. It is the centre of our attention and prayer.

…

We also show our adoration and reverence towards the Holy Eucharist by silence in church, by becoming dress and postures at sacred celebrations, by joining other people in singing, giving responses, and gestures such as sitting, kneeling or standing, and by general care over whatever has to do with Eucharistic worship such as reading, discipline in church and tidiness in altar and sacristy equipment.

 

[Lady_Love]

If you have an issue with something happening at Mass, take it to your priest and leave it in his hands to deal with as he sees fit. Then, you take responsibility for yourself and sit in the front row where you will have no distractions and no one else to blame for your distractions. And then you will be living in the unity and peace that Jesus prayed for in the upper room.

I’ve been dying to use this smiley face: :slapfight:

 

[EasterJoy]

And you get to be the judge of what is and is not reverent because?

Ummm…because it is an opinion forum, and someone asked for his opinion?

After all, he didn’t say that anyone ought to grab anyone else by the lapels, either during the Mass or after it, tell them to “get a room” was something that ought to be done in the context of the Mass. He didn’t say anybody ought to let themselves get all wound up in someone else’s distractions.

Let us remind ourself of the original post:

Hi fellow forum posters.

Just curious: Should gentlemen put one of their arms around their spouse/ or girl friend (arm hanging casually around the back of the pew) during most of the Mass, whispering, nuzzling ears, patting heads? I don’t see it often but I’ve told my husband to please leave that behavior for the home or movie theatre. It doesn’t happen often, so I’m wondering what you think? It’s certainly nice to see married couples with children and all couples still in love, and I’m happy to see them relaxed but is this going overboard or too casual? Is this unusual in your own experience? I was in an evangelical church for many years and it was very common there, but I just recently noticed this a few times at Mass and wondered about it. Opinions?

The OP was not asking if it is OK to get her panties in a bunch over what other people are doing. She was not asking about approaching someone else about their behavior. The OP was asking whether her boundaries with her husband are reasonable. She’s asking for what boundaries other people place on themselves, not what they put on others.

So let’s get off the Mass Police nonsense. There are threads where that applies to the original question to be sure, but this thread was never meant to be about correcting others over whom one has no authority. It is meant to be a discussion about what boundaries people believe to be appropriate for themselves. That’s all she was asking for, and it is not an unreasonable question.

 

[johnsmith2025]

If there’s anything wrong about it, I don’t think it’s because of the act itself — but rather, only because of how the other people there feel about it.

Sometimes people ( especially the singles who don’t have someone ) can feel uncomfortable having to see others do that.
But the act itself, aside from the views of others, is harmless.

Myself, I don’t have any problem with seeing that at all, and I happend to be single.

 

[lifeandhope]

What is even more appalling in terms of Charity is projecting motivations onto the behaviors that people exhibit which you do not happen to like, particularly when no one is committing sin. Exactly. So stop worrying about whether or not someone has their arm around someone else and pay attention to the Mass.

Either way, people should stop stating that because someone commits x,y,z behavior that they must not be focused on the Mass. Multiple people have already stated that they interact with their spouse during the Mass based on occurrences during the Mass, not because they are ignoring it.

I continued to be quite surprised that people have issue with marital affection at Mass. I am not affectionate with 99% of the people in my life, but I am affectionate with my husband and daughters–even in Mass. The cupcake analogy someone mentioned seems ridiculous to me because I keep tight physical boundaries and it I treated my girls and husband how I treated everyone else they’d wonder why I was mad at them!

There is an older woman at Mass who extremely distracting to my worship. She happens to be my favorite reader of scripture, but when she is sitting behind us, like she was last week, she has the most awful and loud singing voice. I cannot even sing when she is near because she’s so off tune and so loud that it’s impossible to get past it. But instead of thinking uncharitable thoughts, I smiled and thought that I bet the Lord is completely delighted in this woman lifting up her voice to Him. My husband and I talked about it after Mass and decided to try to sit elsewhere, just so we are not distracted. Honestly, more distracting was the woman in front of me who wore a spaghetti strap tank with bra straps showing all over, and the three or four infants who were really loud (I was a bit uncharitable here–WHY did those parents NOT take their babies in the cry room!!! That’s what it is there for!!!)

When I observe things like the bra straps and skimpy clothes or whatever that is distracting and not appropriate, instead of thinking bad of the person I realize that they simply do not know any better. Look at the society we are in! Look at what my generation and, moreso, my daughters’ generation is growing up with as “normal”. If no one has taught them otherwise, people have no way of knowing. And, do you think a self-righteous church person taking a woman aside, “ahem, that is not appropriate dress/behavior/affection for Mass…” would do anything other than deeply hurt that person? It’s different if you have an established relationship with someone.

I am newly Catholic. I was a lifetime evangelical and worship is extremely different in the Catholic church–it is possible my family and I are doing something “wrong” or “distracting”, but it is completely out of ignorance. But I assure you, we are there 100% to WORSHIP and I am in AWE of the Mass and experience the Lord to the most innermost part of my being during Mass (…as my husband has his hand on my back and kisses the top of my head, even). GIVE PEOPLE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. Most people are just doing what they know to do.

 

[EasterJoy]

…When I observe things like the bra straps and skimpy clothes or whatever that is distracting and not appropriate, instead of thinking bad of the person I realize that they simply do not know any better…

Again: I hope this thread isn’t a rant over people that, except under the most egregious circumstances, are not ours to correct. Yes, you are right: we need to expect that there will be things we’ll have to put up with, because after all, we have to find a parish that will put up with us!

I hope the thread simply attempts to answer to the OP’s question: What do you think of where I’m drawing my own boundary? Is it reasonable? Is it in keeping with what you expect of yourself?

Having said that, I could ask my family not to take my hand or put arms around me (let alone do anything I’d describe with the word “nuzzle”) during Mass without anyone thinking I’m mad at them. It’s an hour, it’s a solemn event, the request isn’t what I’d call a rejection. After all, someone like the OP might find it distracting to her ability to concentrate, especially if she is concerned that she might be distracting someone else, too.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Ummm…because it is an opinion forum, and someone asked for his opinion?

After all, he didn’t say that anyone ought to grab anyone else by the lapels, either during the Mass or after it, tell them to “get a room” was something that ought to be done in the context of the Mass. He didn’t say anybody ought to let themselves get all wound up in someone else’s distractions.

Let us remind ourself of the original post:

The OP was not asking if it is OK to get her panties in a bunch over what other people are doing. She was not asking about approaching someone else about their behavior. The OP was asking whether her boundaries with her husband are reasonable. She’s asking for what boundaries other people place on themselves, not what they put on others.

So let’s get off the Mass Police nonsense. There are threads where that applies to the original question to be sure, but this thread was never meant to be about correcting others over whom one has no authority. It is meant to be a discussion about what boundaries people believe to be appropriate for themselves. That’s all she was asking for, and it is not an unreasonable question.

Thanks, Easter Joy.:angel1: That’s right, I was really just curious if these specific behaviors mentioned in my original post were things that others felt the same way about. Kindness and charitable feelings go both ways. I would never judge someone even if I was distracted a bit. But I wondered if others felt that these specific actions are in keeping with the Holy Mass and if they feel comfortable exhibiting them, or allowing them, personally.

Coming from a fundamentalist background, then a time in an Episcopal church, converts to Catholicism like myself always wonder what is generally acceptable and appropriate.

I simply feel that for myself, the only time for a quick hug is during the Peace, (although I just shake hands) and I wouldn’t feel comfortable personally, allowing my husband to put his arm around me all during the solemnity of the Mass. But my post is a question: How do others here feel about the specific things I asked about and are these gestures appropriate during the Mass?:getholy: I appreciate all the answers here as a learning experience.
Blessings to all here,
Kathryn Ann
:heaven:

 

[Holly3278]

I’ve seen it with a couple in their late 40s or early 50s. I don’t think it is proper at all. Maybe in a movie theater but never in a church. And he’s a lector too.

I agree. Such behavior is more appropriate for a movie theater but not a Mass. They’re not on a date, they’re there to worship God.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks, Easter Joy.:angel1: That’s right, I was really just curious if these specific behaviors mentioned in my original post were things that others felt the same way about. Kindness and charitable feelings go both ways. I would never judge someone even if I was distracted a bit. But I wondered if others felt that these specific actions are in keeping with the Holy Mass and if they feel comfortable exhibiting them, or allowing them, personally.

Coming from a fundamentalist background, then a time in an Episcopal church, converts to Catholicism like myself always wonder what is generally acceptable and appropriate.

I simply feel that for myself, the only time for a quick hug is during the Peace, (although I just shake hands) and I wouldn’t feel comfortable personally, allowing my husband to put his arm around me all during the solemnity of the Mass. But my post is a question: How do others here feel about the specific things I asked about and are these gestures appropriate during the Mass?:getholy: I appreciate all the answers here as a learning experience.
Blessings to all here,
Kathryn Ann
:heaven:

Quite apart from whether or not anyone else is affected, I think your husband ought to respect the boundaries you need to feel comfortable. You ought to listen to his reasons for asking you to do otherwise, he deserves that, but after you have taken his thoughts into consideration, the postures you do or do not take during prayer and the ways in which you are willing to be touched during prayer, especially prayer during Mass, ought to be left up to you.

 

[jwinch2]

Ummm…because it is an opinion forum, and someone asked for his opinion?

After all, he didn’t say that anyone ought to grab anyone else by the lapels, either during the Mass or after it, tell them to “get a room” was something that ought to be done in the context of the Mass. He didn’t say anybody ought to let themselves get all wound up in someone else’s distractions.

Let us remind ourself of the original post:

The OP was not asking if it is OK to get her panties in a bunch over what other people are doing. She was not asking about approaching someone else about their behavior. The OP was asking whether her boundaries with her husband are reasonable. She’s asking for what boundaries other people place on themselves, not what they put on others.

So let’s get off the Mass Police nonsense. There are threads where that applies to the original question to be sure, but this thread was never meant to be about correcting others over whom one has no authority. It is meant to be a discussion about what boundaries people believe to be appropriate for themselves. That’s all she was asking for, and it is not an unreasonable question.

No, the OP’s question was not unreasonable. If you look back in the thread, my first response was simply stating what my wife and I do, and the rationale behind our behavior.

And yet right away it turned into people making claims about what is appropriate for others to do and using their own personal preferences as the benchmark. In addition, judgements have been made about the motivation behind these actions with comments stating that they must not be paying attention to the Mass, or that they are trying to make the Mass about them instead of Christ. Furthermore, likening the behavior of others to what teenagers do when making out at the movie theater and other such comparisons has occurred more than once in this thread.

When I responded above by asking who put them in charge of judging someone else’s behavior, it was because the statement was being made about someone else’s actions not being reverent. If people wish to express their own boundaries and the reasoning behind them, I have no problem with that which is why I responded in the manner that I did to begin with in post #27.

However, I will not stay silent when we see repeated examples of members taking their own personal preferences and using them as the standard to judge others behavior, the motivations behind their behavior, and making spurious claims about what is or is not going on inside of someone else’s mind. This is particularly concerning when you have multiple people stating that they exhibit such behaviors yet their motivations and thoughts do not match up with what has been thrown out there.

If you have concerns about my responding to those people, I suggest you address those who took the thread in that direction in the first place, and who continue to do so.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Quite apart from whether or not anyone else is affected, I think your husband ought to respect the boundaries you need to feel comfortable. You ought to listen to his reasons for asking you to do otherwise, he deserves that, but after you have taken his thoughts into consideration, the postures you do or do not take during prayer and the ways in which you are willing to be touched during prayer, especially prayer during Mass, ought to be left up to you.

Oh, this is not anything to do with my husband, rest assured! I’m not sure where you read that. We are in one accord on this, as both of us are rather uncomfortable with public displays of affection, he more so than I.

We keep such displays of affection for outside of Mass. As an older couple, we understand that new generations may have a different outlook, and that is why I wondered if others here feel these things mentioned are appropriate during Mass.

I would hope that no wife would have to deal with her feelings in this area being dis-respected. Communication and respect are so important.

My post reflects the few times I’ve observed these PDAs, and in all cases, both hubby and wife (or boyfriend and girlfriend) were obviously in accord, if anything, a bit too enthusiastically so! I do try to keep a sense of humor intact, so that even when these issues come up, I keep an inner balance. In the end, it’s always a good sign to see loving couples. My question was just about people’s personal feelings, if they feel these things are appropriate all during the Mass, for themselves or if they feel a bit uncomfortable if the problem begins to be excessive.
Blessings to all here,

Kathryn Ann