Armageddon, the Beast, Appearance of Anti-Christ, Gog and Magog, End Times, rapture, Second Coming of Jesus, gathering of the Israel

[FaithofAbraham]

The OT sacrifice and our repentance is always imperfect. The punishment for sin is eternal death. God wouldn’t be God if his penalty didn’t have to be paid. He doesn’t disregard his own word. Jesus (God), in his love, took that punisment upon himself for our sake. God is the only one able to pay that price for us.

His sacrifice for us is proof of his love for us. He lowered himself and took our punishment for us. He exacted the justice we deserve on himself to exonerate us. If we do not repent, God doesn’t take the punishment for us, because we’ve chosen to take it ourself.

Peace,

Ryan

I don’t understand your sun analogy at all, Jesus doesn’t need to be God in order for his sacrifice and obedience to be remembered.

And Jesus can be a man and take punishment for us so he can rise to position of making atonement for us.

So this is still not getting to the point of why Jesus needs to be God to do all this.

Personally I don’t think you or any other Christian will be able to answer this head on, because I’ve searched up and down and I’ve never found any real need for Jesus to be God, just a man obedient to God so that he can be put in the position to do these things for us.

 

[planten]

Wisdomseeker:
mr. planten.
all you are trying to do is to disprove what we as christians believe. the life, death and resurrection of our dear Lord Jesus Christ. I see no point in these arguments.

Sorry I could not understand you. Please quote my post. then write what you like. It appears that after reading some friends post, I may have asked some questions. If you have the answers then please quote my post and give suitable reply. I have no agenda to let down any one here. But it is appropriate to ask sensible questions.I hope nobody will mind it.
I appreciate your good wishes. Thanks.

 

[ryanoneil]

I don’t understand your sun analogy at all, Jesus doesn’t need to be God in order for his sacrifice and obedience to be remembered.

No problem. There are christians who don’t understand OR deny it, and some who don’t believe Jesus is divine. We who believe, understand the sacrifice of the Mass to be more than a rememberance.

And Jesus can be a man and take punishment for us so he can rise to position of making atonement for us.

So this is still not getting to the point of why Jesus needs to be God to do all this.

God is God. He can save us how ever he wants. Jesus needs to be God because God willed it. His saving action doesn’t depend on how we think it needs to be. It is our job to conform ourselves to his will.

Personally I don’t think you or any other Christian will be able to answer this head on, because I’ve searched up and down and I’ve never found any real need for Jesus to be God, just a man obedient to God so that he can be put in the position to do these things for us.

Listen to the words of Jesus and you will find the answer. Of course I can’t explain this mystery completely because I’m only a finite human. In order to understand we must believe and in order to believe we must understand.

As a Catholic I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I believe Gods word is the truth. The Old Testament points to it, and Jesus and the Apostles tell us, time after time after time, that Jesus is God in the flesh. I believe them. I understand that the Quran has led you to believe otherwise.

I will never be able to convince you or anyone else of Jesus’ divinity. Only God himself is able to do it. I can only spread his word and pray that he gives you faith to believe.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Roy5]

End Times Nonsense Misleads Many

 It's sad how many Christians get misled by the current emphasis in some quarters upon the Anti-Christ, the Rapture, Israel, Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ.

 To begin with, too many well-meaning Bible students use the Bible as a Ouija board or a pack of tarot cards. The scriptures become a source of gross superstitions that make Christianity appear primitive and foolish. They cherry pick verses from Daniel, Revelation etc and create a whole scenario that contradicts science, history and common sense.

  Our problems in the Middle East today are caused in large part by this sillyness. Millions of Christians regard Israel as a hallowed nation, the 'apple in God's eye'.  Egged on by ardent Zionists our government has never been an honest broker in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict else that matter could have been settled years ago. Instead, the Israel Lobby together with many evangelicals have pushed our country into the mess we're in now.. The 9/11 terrorist attack got its initial impetus from hatred of the USA because of our indifference to the suffering of the Palestinians while we poured over $100 billion into Israel along with military and diplomatic support. Had we been an honest broker we wouldn't have lost thousands of young soldiers and b e spending over $200 billion a year in Afghanistan (which we had to attack) and in the totally unnecessary and stupid invasion of Iraq..

  Lots more to say, but enough already. It's tragic that so many Christians are as ignorant and intolerant as many Muslims and Jews. They warp the scriptures to come up with some numb-skull end-times nonsense. Shame on the three Abrahamic and monotheistic religions which should be working in harmony. No wonder so many people dismiss organized religion as the source of much misunderstanding, bigotry and violence.

 

[byers]

Try reading David Currie’s 2003 book.
Rapture: The End-times Error that leaves the Bible Behind.see reviews at amazon

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No problem. There are christians who don’t understand OR deny it, and some who don’t believe Jesus is divine. We who believe, understand the sacrifice of the Mass to be more than a rememberance.

God is God. He can save us how ever he wants. Jesus needs to be God because God willed it. His saving action doesn’t depend on how we think it needs to be. It is our job to conform ourselves to his will.

Listen to the words of Jesus and you will find the answer. Of course I can’t explain this mystery completely because I’m only a finite human. In order to understand we must believe and in order to believe we must understand.

As a Catholic I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I believe Gods word is the truth. The Old Testament points to it, and Jesus and the Apostles tell us, time after time after time, that Jesus is God in the flesh. I believe them. I understand that the Quran has led you to believe otherwise.

I will never be able to convince you or anyone else of Jesus’ divinity. Only God himself is able to do it. I can only spread his word and pray that he gives you faith to believe.

Peace,

Ryan

Thanks, I’m glad you believe anyway even though we differ on the details.

 

[ryanoneil]

Thanks, I’m glad you believe anyway even though we differ on the details.

Thank you also!

 

[paarsurrey]

ryanoneil;3263681:

There is a good reason why Jesus has not returned. He is gathering as many souls to himself, before the end of the world, as possible. He is giving us as much time as possible.
When he comes again it will really be the end. There will be eternal salvation for those who await him, and eternal damnation for those who reject him. There will be no time left for second chances.
Peace,

Hi

This seems to be only a guess of wisdomseeker. Why then Jesus promised to his addresees that many among them would be alive when he would come? These sort of explanations are made , in my opinion, in utter disappointment , nothing solid is presented in this connection.

Thanks

 

[ryanoneil]

wisdomseeker;3263855:

Hi

This seems to be only a guess of wisdomseeker

. Why then Jesus promised to his addresees that many among them would be alive when he would come? These sort of explanations are made , in my opinion, in utter disappointment , nothing solid is presented in this connection.

Thanks
If we are still talking about

1. During the disciples’ lifetime
   There are several passages in the gospels where Jesus says he will return in the disciples’ lifetime (Mark 13:30, Matthew 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke 21:32, etc.).

There are two subjects

1. When will the Temple be destroyed
2. What is the sign of your coming at the end of the world

Jesus answer question 1 in Mat 24:4-35

Jesus answer question 2 in Mat 24:36-44 and clarifies with three parables of Mat 25

If you notice there is a big change between the two answers. In answer 1 Jesus spoke of signs pointing to the destruction of the Temple. He was very specific with eith signs and further explained with five amplifications. He gives great detail. Then in answer 2 he speaks of the timing of his final coming. He says “No one knows. . . They did not know. . . They did not expect. . . You do not know. . . You do not expect” (Mat 24:36, 39, 42, 44)

If you have a hard time understanding, the two quetions and answers are separated by more than three chapters in Luke. answer 1 is in Luke 21:5-36, and answer 2 is in Luke 17:22-37

Read them and ask questions if you like. I will make another post in the mean time.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

wisdomseeker;3263855:

Hi

This seems to be only a guess of wisdomseeker

. Why then Jesus promised to his addresees that many among them would be alive when he would come? These sort of explanations are made , in my opinion, in utter disappointment , nothing solid is presented in this connection.

Thanks

Jesus answered when the Temple will be destroyed so when he tells them “Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place”, he told the truth.

I think what is confussing you is when Jesus says “they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

This is NOT Jesus second coming. This is his judgment of the Temple. He said he would destroy it and the world saw that it was true. the “clouds of heaven” symbolize the majesty and glory of the Jesus when he judges his enemies.

A good example can be found in Isaiah 19:1. “The Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt tremble at His presence.” This was fulfilled in Isaiah 20:1-6. Yet no clouds are recorded and God didn’t make himself visible in a body. God’s coming on a cloud was actually the arrival of the Assyrian army! They were the tool of God’s judgment. God gloriously came on the clouds, but what was physically seen was the Assyrian army. A similar use of clouds to signify the glory of God in His judgement against Egypt is in Ezekiel 30:3. “The day of the Lord is near; it will be a day of clouds”

So, we see Daniel 7:13-14 fulfilled. The “Son of man”, Jesus, was publicly recognized as the victor at the judgment of the Temple in 70 A.D. And it happened while many of the generation were still alive. This is the point at which Christ was vindicated as Judge of His accusers, and the Kingdom was publicly given to the saints, as Daniel 7:27 foretold. “The greatness of the kingdom under the whole Heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom”

I can explain more if you wish.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

paarsurrey;3266184:

Jesus answered when the Temple will be destroyed so when he tells them “Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place”

, he told the truth.

I think what is confussing you is when Jesus says “they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

This is NOT Jesus second coming. This is his judgment of the Temple. He said he would destroy it and the world saw that it was true. the “clouds of heaven” symbolize the majesty and glory of the Jesus when he judges his enemies.

It was fulfilled for sure with Stephen, he saw Jesus that way then was stoned to death. That usually silences the contradiction people.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Sorry I could not understand you. Please quote my post. then write what you like. It appears that after reading some friends post, I may have asked some questions. If you have the answers then please quote my post and give suitable reply. I have no agenda to let down any one here. But it is appropriate to ask sensible questions.I hope nobody will mind it.
I appreciate your good wishes. Thanks.

what i am saying is: you say you believe in Jesus, in Mary because mohammad mentioned them in the q’ura. now, you say that Jesus did not die on the cross, there is no need for the resurection. Where in the Bible mentions mohammad? where in the Bible Jesus says he is going to send a prophet to the muslims people? thks for the answers.

 

[planten]

what i am saying is: you say you believe in Jesus, in Mary because mohammad mentioned them in the q’ura. now, you say that Jesus did not die on the cross, there is no need for the resurection. Where in the Bible mentions mohammad? where in the Bible Jesus says he is going to send a prophet to the muslims people? thks for the answers.

Yours is vague question. You believe that Jesus is a god. We do not believe that. We believe that he was a prophet of God just like all other prophets and messengers. That is because it is written in the Quran. There is everything about Jesus and his mother and disciples in the Quran.

Your question about Muhammad in the bible is vague. There is no clear indiction about jesus too in the OT bible. There are only hints. That is all. So there were and there are hints in the bible OT and NT about Muhammad too. It is only a matter of believingthat or denying them.

If Jesus was God then he must have been sending the prophets to many nations in the past. He must have created himself and Abraham and moses and his mother Mary too. Do you see the complications in the church stories.

I am notmaking up things from myself. The Quran says that The Jews could not kill Jesus in any way. He survived. That is because of the Quran. Otherwise I am ready to go along with you that Jesus died on the cross. I have no harm. If you feel that Jesus was killed on the cross (for whatever reson) then that is alright for me.

But I have to tell you that none of the Muslims believe that Jews killed Jesus. there are many sects in the Muslims. You ask any one. Noone believes that Jesus died. So what ca I do?? Shall I shuttle back and forth betwee the church belief and the Quran??

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yours is vague question. You believe that Jesus is a god. We do not believe that. We believe that he was a prophet of God just like all other prophets and messengers. That is because it is written in the Quran. There is everything about Jesus and his mother and disciples in the Quran.

Your question about Muhammad in the bible is vague. There is no clear indiction about jesus too in the OT bible. There are only hints. That is all. So there were and there are hints in the bible OT and NT about Muhammad too. It is only a matter of believingthat or denying them.

If Jesus was God then he must have been sending the prophets to many nations in the past. He must have created himself and Abraham and moses and his mother Mary too. Do you see the complications in the church stories.

I am notmaking up things from myself. The Quran says that The Jews could not kill Jesus in any way. He survived. That is because of the Quran. Otherwise I am ready to go along with you that Jesus died on the cross. I have no harm. If you feel that Jesus was killed on the cross (for whatever reson) then that is alright for me.

But I have to tell you that none of the Muslims believe that Jews killed Jesus. there are many sects in the Muslims. You ask any one. Noone believes that Jesus died. So what ca I do?? Shall I shuttle back and forth betwee the church belief and the Quran??

brother have you ever read the Bible? what does it say about Jesus?

 

[abucs]

No planten, you drop the koran because it was written 600 years later by people not from a Judaic Christian culture who didn’t know what they were writing about.

Pretty obvious really.

Jesus and his followers claim over and over literally hundreds of times in the NT that Jesus was the fulfilment of Jewish prophecy and refer to the OT frequently and show by action how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies.

You don’t find the same with Muhammad and his followers in the koran.

To say it is simply a matter of interpreting and belief makes no sense. Muslims have to continually “invent” history and interpretations to make up for the mistakes, short comings and incompleteness of the koran. That’s why muslims are impossible to talk to in such matters.

We are supposed to accept their invented imaginings as not ony equal with historical record, but as superior to it.

That is just stupid.

 

[abucs]

Planten,

you say Jesus would have to create Mary and himself and there are too many contradictions.

There are only contradictions if you are looking at reality the wrong way.

God created our reality. Our reality continually spawns new life within the context of our reality.

Think of a computer programmer writing an internet reality game and then entering as one of the characters. He only ‘creates’ himself in the context of the ‘creation’ (computer game) not in the context of creating his reality.

There are only contradictions if you want to invent them so that then you can then close your mind and follow a couple of lines from a certain book.

 

[planten]

brother have you ever read the Bible? what does it say about Jesus?

Yes, I have read the bible many times. But my interest in the bible NT was limited only to the four gospels. I enjoy reading Mathew. It is lovely, words of Jesus. Beautiful, parables, examples, advice and guidance.
But I have the Quran which tells me all the good things about Jesus and his mother and his disciples. There is not even one bad word in the Quran about them.

Whatever is there, I have to believe the Quran. All the good things of the bible are there in the Quran. It is the latest book (Message) from God which is free from any manipulation.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yes, I have read the bible many times. But my interest in the bible NT was limited only to the four gospels. I enjoy reading Mathew. It is lovely, words of Jesus. Beautiful, parables, examples, advice and guidance.
But I have the Quran which tells me all the good things about Jesus and his mother and his disciples. There is not even one bad word in the Quran about them.

Whatever is there, I have to believe the Quran. All the good things of the bible are there in the Quran. It is the latest book (Message) from God which is free from any manipulation.

you say: you have to believe it. in this term i can tell you choose to ignore all that Jesus says. Jesus came, He talks about God and He tells all He wants us to know about God. is it not enough for you?

 

[ryanoneil]

ryanoneil;3266462:

It was fulfilled for sure with Stephen, he saw Jesus that way then was stoned to death. That usually silences the contradiction people.

Yes, good observation! Stephen is seeing what Jesus had foretold during his trial before the Sanhedrin: “You will see the Son of Man seated at the right had on Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:62) Interesting that Stephen is “citing” a saying of Jesus, which he is privilaged to see at the moment of his death.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[planten]

you say: you have to believe it. in this term i can tell you choose to ignore all that Jesus says. Jesus came, He talks about God and He tells all He wants us to know about God. is it not enough for you?

It is good. Whatever Jesus talks about God is good. His message of Love is also good. his message of repentence is good. I have not denied any of that. And I have replied that I am for Jesus and nobody else besides him. I have read the bible but only the four gospels. That is enough for me. That is a life story of Jesus written by some persons and I like the account given there. That is all.

What Jesus said could be enough for me. No harm. It is good for you too. You may have it. But if there is anything in the bible contrary to the description or words of Quran then I need not believe that. Because that will not be binding on me. That is also because you do not believe anything of the Quran. I at least believe the many words of bible. So I am happy.