Arrgh! Horrible "Surprise" at Mass today

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jmcrae said:
Yes - but that could be because we live in a majority-Protestant society, and because their notions of “church” may be (and probably are) influencing our thinking. Not because there is anything particularly Catholic about organ music. Since no organ music has ever been written by Catholics for Mass - that I know of, or that you have found yet.

Borrowing Protestant organ music that was written for Protestant liturgies and adapting it for Mass does not cause that music to become Catholic.
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You’ve gotten well off the original idea.
You said…
"I’ve never heard anything but modern instruments played in the Catholic Church. "

And I said the organ was historically catholic (as opposed to modern instruments).

Maybe you misunderstood what I was getting at.
Modern instruments are not historically Catholic.

You may have only heard modern instruments, I have (thankfully) heard an organ through my whole life, shrot of the hippy seventies. I thank God for that.
 
JMJ,

After reading not only what happened to you but MANY of the other forums, it makes me so grateful to Our Lord that I have the blessing to assist at the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass, the Mass of all time, (Tridentine) We simply do not have these problems of near-heretical protestantized “worship”

When the Holy Father releases his Motu Proprio hopefully those that are in your situation will begin to have The Mass avail. to you…

I will offer a Rosary in reperation for the offenses Our Lord is suffering due to these half-protestant sacraliges…

Non nobis Domine, non nobis
Bro. Seán Conner C.P.M.O.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
You’ve gotten well off the original idea.
You said…
"I’ve never heard anything but modern instruments played in the Catholic Church. "

And I said the organ was historically catholic (as opposed to modern instruments).

Maybe you misunderstood what I was getting at.
Modern instruments are not historically Catholic.
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Well of course not. Modern instruments aren’t “historically” anything, are they? The organ was once a “modern” instrument, too, though - and they probably thought it was very innovative to install them in churches, back then. 😛

I don’t know what instruments they played in Catholic churches prior to the 1960s, if any, (I was under the impression that they were singing Gregorian Chant, which doesn’t take any instruments) but there isn’t any infrastructure there for a traditional pipe organ (the only kind that they could have had, back then, if they had organs.)

After the 1960s, they installed modern-day organs (without pipes) and various other instruments also began to be used.

But I have never so much as seen the architecture that would be required for a pipe organ in a Catholic church. I don’t think it’s possible for them to have once had them. (And it’s a pretty expensive thing to just throw away - you’d have to tear the whole building down and then rebuild it, not to mention the lost investment in the instrument itself.)
You may have only heard modern instruments, I have (thankfully) heard an organ through my whole life, short of the hippy seventies. I thank God for that.
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That’s really good. I just don’t think it’s the normal experience. As I mentioned before, there are only two traditional pipe organs in my whole city. One at a Protestant church, and one at the concert hall.

There is a device that they call an “organ” at my parish that sounds very nice, but it hasn’t got any pipes - it’s essentially a piano with extra keyboards, and bellows inside of it instead of strings. It sounds nice, and one can play Baroque hymns on it, but it doesn’t sound anything like a traditional pipe organ.

This is what a traditional Church pipe organ looks like.

Here’s the one that’s in the concert hall.
 
stmarysindy.org/parish_music.html

mt-carmel.org/organs.htm

home.teleport.com/~wkrueger/organ/stmary.html

ad2000.com.au/articles/1999/aug1999p14_321.html

This was just a quick Google search.
Maybe in your neck of the woods there are no pipe organs in Catholic Churches but a stroll through any Classic Catholic churches will show you that pipe organs, though they may sit mute, have been there for a long time. I truly hope you can come to one of our classic Cathedrals here in Detroit. Here is a link to St. Josaphat where our TLM is held. Note the choir loft. Yes, that is a pipe organ.
stjosaphatdetroit.org/misc.htm

From adoremus.org/0903Organists.html

The pipe organ is the instrument named by the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council as the traditional instrument for our worship. We have seen in Part I of this series ("Banish the Soloists" - July/August AB) that vocal soloists were not envisioned by the Council; choirs were. And the choirs were to be led by the most suitable instrument to lead a congregation:
… the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things. (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 1963, chapter VI, #120).
 
👍 👍
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
stmarysindy.org/parish_music.html

mt-carmel.org/organs.htm

home.teleport.com/~wkrueger/organ/stmary.html

ad2000.com.au/articles/1999/aug1999p14_321.html

This was just a quick Google search.
Maybe in your neck of the woods there are no pipe organs in Catholic Churches but a stroll through any Classic Catholic churches will show you that pipe organs, though they may sit mute, have been there for a long time. I truly hope you can come to one of our classic Cathedrals here in Detroit. Here is a link to St. Josaphat where our TLM is held. Note the choir loft. Yes, that is a pipe organ.
stjosaphatdetroit.org/misc.htm

From adoremus.org/0903Organists.html

The pipe organ is the instrument ntraditional instrument amed by the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council as the traditional instrument for our worship. We have seen in Part I of this series ("Banish the Soloists" - July/August AB) that vocal soloists were not envisioned by the Council; choirs were. And the choirs were to be led by the most suitable instrument to lead a congregation:
… the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things. (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 1963, chapter VI, #120).
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Our priest is trying to get cantors by any means he can, sung even getting a 12 year old girl was be trained by our CD, which took about a month, she sung with a slight squeakey voice one Sunday and if the parents feel like it can pull out of this anytime. The choir is divided on cantors, the music is dull I think and sometimes I am beginning to wonder if this was not just a contest between the priest and the will of the CD. We had a young man play a violin but he could not play very well and the CD told me he didn’t think he was ready for a mic yet the biggest understatement of the year. During daly mass we sing without accompaniment which isn’t so bad really and I have recently been to funerals that have the same a favorite hymn just plain how very touching it was! OUr CD is very understanding about both the worlds going on here and the guitars will never be allowed and I think that the priest feels in fact I know him well enough now that he thinks if he waits long enough and longer it will all happen!👍 😃
return from the desert
 
I’d like to attend a mass with this kind of music:

1 Paralipomenon 13
8 And David and all Israel played before God with all their might with hymns, and with harps, and with psalteries, and timbrels, and cymbals, and trumpets,
1 Paralipomenon 15
16 And David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites, to appoint some of their brethren to be singers with musical instruments, to wit, on psalteries, and harps, and cymbals, that the joyful noise might resound on high.
2 Paralipomenon 5
13 So when they all sounded together, both with trumpets, and voice, and cymbals, and organs, and with divers kind of musical instruments, and lifted up their voice on high: the sound was heard afar off, so that when they began to praise the Lord, and to say: Give glory to the Lord for he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever: the house of God was filled with a cloud.
Judith 16
2 Begin ye to the Lord with timbrels, sing ye to the Lord with cymbals, tune unto him a new psalm, extol and call upon his name.
Psalms 150
5 Praise him on high sounding cymbals: praise him on cymbals of joy: let every spirit praise the Lord. Alleluia.
Psalms 32
2 Give praise to the Lord on the harp; sing to him with the psaltery, the instrument of ten strings.
 
catholic2 said:
I’d like to attend a mass with this kind of music:

1 Paralipomenon 13
8 And David and all Israel played before God with all their might with hymns, and with harps, and with psalteries, and timbrels, and cymbals, and trumpets,
1 Paralipomenon 15
16 And David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites, to appoint some of their brethren to be singers with musical instruments, to wit, on psalteries, and harps, and cymbals, that the joyful noise might resound on high.
2 Paralipomenon 5
13 So when they all sounded together, both with trumpets, and voice, and cymbals, and organs, and with divers kind of musical instruments, and lifted up their voice on high: the sound was heard afar off, so that when they began to praise the Lord, and to say: Give glory to the Lord for he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever: the house of God was filled with a cloud.
Judith 16
2 Begin ye to the Lord with timbrels, sing ye to the Lord with cymbals, tune unto him a new psalm, extol and call upon his name.
Psalms 150
5 Praise him on high sounding cymbals: praise him on cymbals of joy: let every spirit praise the Lord. Alleluia.
Psalms 32
2 Give praise to the Lord on the harp; sing to him with the psaltery, the instrument of ten strings.
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Sorry, cymbals belong in a brass band only. Can you imagine people playing on cymbals at Calvary? :bigyikes:
 
jmcrae said:
Yes, it’s beautiful !!

Do they use the organ at the TLM? I thought that musical instruments were not allowed at the TLM; that they were supposed to use only Gregorian chant?
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Actually, I’m not sure. I have always wanted to go down there but because my girls sing in the choir at the 9:30 Holy Mass at my own parish, we haven’t be able to make it.

Look for the “Detroit’s Tridentine Mass” thread to pop to the top of the forum. I’ll ask!
 
deb1 said:
I would have taken the Eucharist first and found another church later. I can’t imagine missing out on the communion, no matter how upset I was.
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**I can’t see what the horrible “surprise” was… :confused: **​

**As for walking out of church - I’m not sure I would dare to 😛 ** ##
 
LilyM said:
Organ is regularly played at funerals - nothing inherently disrespectful about it.
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Yes, but not (normally) in the terminal ward.

King David played the cymbals for joy in the Lord - maybe the angels were playing cymbals at the Resurrection? And I have seen classical paintings that show angels playing cymbals at the Nativity. 😉
 
catholic2 said:
I’d like to attend a mass with this kind of music:

1 Paralipomenon 13
8 And David and all Israel played before God with all their might with hymns, and with harps, and with psalteries, and timbrels, and cymbals, and trumpets,
1 Paralipomenon 15
16 And David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites, to appoint some of their brethren to be singers with musical instruments, to wit, on psalteries, and harps, and cymbals, that the joyful noise might resound on high.
2 Paralipomenon 5
13 So when they all sounded together, both with trumpets, and voice, and cymbals, and organs, and with divers kind of musical instruments, and lifted up their voice on high: the sound was heard afar off, so that when they began to praise the Lord, and to say: Give glory to the Lord for he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever: the house of God was filled with a cloud.
Judith 16
2 Begin ye to the Lord with timbrels, sing ye to the Lord with cymbals, tune unto him a new psalm, extol and call upon his name.
Psalms 150
5 Praise him on high sounding cymbals: praise him on cymbals of joy: let every spirit praise the Lord. Alleluia.
Psalms 32
2 Give praise to the Lord on the harp; sing to him with the psaltery, the instrument of ten strings.
Click to expand...
Go to a Coptic service. They use cymbals a lot.
 
LilyM said:
Sorry, cymbals belong in a brass band only. Can you imagine people playing on cymbals at Calvary? :bigyikes:
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No, I would not see cymbals played at Calvary. But I CAN see symbols being played at the Empty Tomb upon meeting the Risen Christ. And it is the Risen Christ, not a Dead Christ, that we meet in the Mass.
I’m not saying that we SHOULD play cymbals at Mass, or that I would necessarily enjoy it.
 
valient_Lucy said:
No, I would not see cymbals played at Calvary. But I CAN see symbols being played at the Empty Tomb upon meeting the Risen Christ. And it is the Risen Christ, not a Dead Christ, that we meet in the Mass.
I’m not saying that we SHOULD play cymbals at Mass, or that I would necessarily enjoy it.
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The Mass is the Eucharist or principal sacramental celebration of the Church, established by Jesus at the Last Supper, in which the mystery of our salvation through participation in the sacrificial death and glorious Resurrection of Christ is renewed and accomplished. So you see, we do participate in the representation of his death at Mass.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

**I can’t see what the horrible “surprise” was… :confused: **​

**As for walking out of church - I’m not sure I would dare to 😛 ** ##
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After rereading this continoous long thread I also would not walk out and I have decided to face our CD politely but firmly and one other member wanted to walk out but now we have agreed we need to take a stand but it must be respectfull and polite and the priest better back us up because we are going to be christian in God’s laws about it so I would recommend anyone to not walk out of what is yours from Jesus. I will let you know how this turns out. It is really part of apologetics anyways and it seems easier to do it on the computer but why should we let the devil get a foot hold on what is going on in God’s house, there has to be limits.
return
 
palmas85 said:
Go to a Coptic service. They use cymbals a lot.
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I did not know that. However, it does not change the fact that it is not part of our tradition. The west has a musical tradition that generally progresses as such:
  • Single Voice Only (plainchant)
  • Polyphony
  • Organ because it mimics the human voice
  • Proto-Wind and Proto-String instruments
  • Full Orchestra
    • Distinction made between sacred music and secular music forbidding the use of secular music in liturgical settings and forbidding sacred music in secular settings.
    • Distinction between sacred and secular music breaks down
  • Church bans certain types of secular music in liturgy
    • As a result of liturgical legislation there is a return to Plainchant, Polyphony and Organ only.
  • Allowance made for Full Orchestra but only specifically written mass settings that qualified as sacred music.
  • Secular Music returns to liturgy after Vatican II
So, I think that it is reasonable to assume that in the near future the Church will once again demand a return to the simplicity of Sacred Music as it is always trying to do. Music in the Liturgy of the west is like a bush that gets overgrown that must be cut back on a regular basis.
 
jmcrae said:
Yes, it’s beautiful !!

Do they use the organ at the TLM? I thought that musical instruments were not allowed at the TLM; that they were supposed to use only Gregorian chant?
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Those in the know say “Yes!”
 
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