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valient_Lucy
Guest
Neither did the Mass of St. Pius V.
- Status
J
jmcrae
Guest
Netmil(name removed by moderator);
I’m sorry - to be honest, I, too, associate the pipe organ with the Reformation, and Reformed Protestantism. I’ve never heard anything but modern instruments played in the Catholic Church.
It could be my location - we have only two authentic pipe organs in my city - one is owned by the Church I used to belong to, which is a Protestant church, and the other is owned by our city’s concert hall, which also caters to the Protestant (WASP) population.
We have a modern organ at my parish (I don’t know what kind), but it doesn’t sound anything like a pipe organ. Of course, it’s a vast improvement on guitars and pianos, and you can play classical Baroque hymns (traditionally Protestant hymns) on it without messing them up too much, but it’s still not what I would think of as a “church organ.”
I’m sorry - to be honest, I, too, associate the pipe organ with the Reformation, and Reformed Protestantism. I’ve never heard anything but modern instruments played in the Catholic Church.
It could be my location - we have only two authentic pipe organs in my city - one is owned by the Church I used to belong to, which is a Protestant church, and the other is owned by our city’s concert hall, which also caters to the Protestant (WASP) population.
We have a modern organ at my parish (I don’t know what kind), but it doesn’t sound anything like a pipe organ. Of course, it’s a vast improvement on guitars and pianos, and you can play classical Baroque hymns (traditionally Protestant hymns) on it without messing them up too much, but it’s still not what I would think of as a “church organ.”
V
valient_Lucy
Guest
I disagree with this, however, I’m going to explain a little bit.
I attend Mass at a church about 1/2 hour away. This is the church where I was recieved into the Catholic Faith. This church has a very good Mass, with no rock music, an organ, and often sings many of the prayers in Latin. The priest is very devoted to observing the Mass properly and with reverence. I do whatever I can to attend Mass at this church. So, I completly understand the desire to support a parish that celebrates Mass reverently and in lines with the GIRM, and to avoid Masses that do not.
However, if I could not attend this Church for some reason, I would attend Mass at the nearby parish, to which I can walk. After all, what makes the Mass special is NOT the music, but the Real Presence of Jesus! To place too much importance on the music, or the language imo, subtracts from this reality.
IMO, I think it is far better to seek out a Mass, whenever possible, which reverently celebrates the Sacrifice, and where the priest is orthodox. I think that it is acceptible to “vote with your feet.” However, if the only Mass one can attend is a rock and roll Mass, it is FAR better to attend that Mass than to skip Mass entirely. I also disagree with walking out of the Mass. If I am at a Mass where the Mass seems pedestrian, I try to love Chrsit even more during the Mass, and to worship Him even more. I would prefer to keep Christ company than to abandon Him. The only circumstance where I would abandon the Mass was if the priest did omitted the consecration, thus rendering the Mass invalid. If the priest did anything to invalidate the Mass, I would certainly walk out.
To me, the ideal situation is to seek out the most reverent Masses possible, and to support that parish with your money and talents. However, if a person cannot attend Mass at such a parish one week, and can only attend a Life Teen Mass, then he should attend that Mass as reverently and as prayerfully as possible, for the entire Mass.
W
Wolseley
Guest
Perfectly understood, no prob.
(Note that these
Thankfully, my wife is back at Mass every Sunday morning with me, in no small part due to the fact that our little son is now in religious ed after Mass every Sunday.
I agree. The hymns this morning were all traditionsl, and very uplifting—you knew you were actually inside a church. The main critiques I have about the parish are the lack of reverence by many of the parishioners (the chatter like monkeys before and after Mass), and the “embroidering” of the rubrics done by the elderly pastor…he adds a lot to the written prayers.
I’ll bet he does some beautiful needlework…
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netmilsmom
Guest
Maybe because you were Protestant but to cradle Catholics the Pipe Organ is Catholic. Guitars and modern instruments are not.
Now I’m not saying that Protestants didn’t have pipe organs but I AM saying that historically, Catholics didn’t have guitars and drums.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Why, then, are there no Catholic hymns written for organ?
All the Catholic hymns I know are written either for chant, such as Gregorian Chant or Polyphonic Chant, etc, or else they are written for guitar.
Well, not in Church. And neither did anyone else. As far as I know, Reformed Protestants still don’t permit guitars or drums in Church.
W
wynd
Guest
I am a cradle Catholic. To me, “Catholic music” is OCP and electric pianos, and maybe (if we’re lucky!) guitars and drums. The first time I ever heard an organ in church was when I went to a Lutheran girlfriend’s service.
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netmilsmom
Guest
N
netmilsmom
Guest
My heart goes out to all the cradle Catholics who, like you grew up without an organ at church.I am a cradle Catholic. To me, “Catholic music” is OCP and electric pianos, and maybe (if we’re lucky!) guitars and drums. The first time I ever heard an organ in church was when I went to a Lutheran girlfriend’s service.
I grew up in a parish built in 1867 in the suburbs of Cleveland. We had an organ and all of the churches I attended in the area had one too. Everyone that I know thinks of Organ music as church music. Maybe that’s the problem with my facts, they are from my own perspective only. Others apparently had other experiences.
Okay, so the organ was at the skating rink too but playing “Dream On” by Aerosmith is only allowed today in parishes!
S
Sperantsa
Guest
Hi everyone
I’m new to this website but I’ve been reading some of the posts in this forum, and wanted to jump in. Let me start by saying that I’m 25, and I grew up in a very traditional church, with a very solid CCD program. I loved it, and I loved the mass - always.
When I started high school, I became friends with a lot of Protestants and I was really attracted to their faith, and the fact that they studied the Bible and prayed together in a way that I had never seen done in the Catholic church - it wasn’t very “traditionally Catholic,” but it was nice to know that my friends were praying for me, and they shared my morals. Yes, sometimes it made me question my faith - through which, I grew immensely. My friends asked questions that I had never asked before, and it made me go seek the answers - luckily, I knew some great priests and found some great books, and started reading up. I AM drawn to much of the Protestant worship music, and that’s often what I listen to in the car. But I will never be Protestant, because they don’t have the Sacraments - if they can ever get the Eucharist, Confession, and Apostolic Succession, I could maybe end up there, but for now, that’s something that only the Catholic Church can claim.
I’ve moved around a lot in the last few years, and just registered in a new parish. I read a few of my journal entries from last spring, and one of the things I had written was that I’m Catholic to the core - I could never imagine NOT being Catholic, but at the same time, I was wondering if there was really a place for me in the Church, because I kept going to churches and not seeing anyone my age - I went in silently, sat down, and left as soon it was over, without anyone ever greeting me. In fact, I had one woman yell at me after mass because she said I had taken her son’s seat, even though the pew appeared empty and she didn’t say anything when I sat down. I wasn’t exactly feeling welcome. I was lonely, and realized that I had experienced more fellowship when I was living in a country without the opportunity to attend mass regularly - I had to travel a couple of hours to the capital, and worked to go to mass at least once a month, but certainly could not go every week.
Soon after last Easter, I found a young adult group that studies the writings of JPII. Through that group, I found a parish where I am now registered - it’s half an hour away, but when I go in, I feel at home. It’s not as traditional as what I grew up with, but the priest is wonderful and gives great homilies with sound Teaching.
Mass usually ends with an upbeat song (and yes, there are guitars) with praise to our Lord, and people start clapping along with the music. Although this surprised me at first, I can say that they are still very reverent, and they’re all happy to be at mass. How is this different from the Evangelical church down the street? Well, I don’t know of any Evangelical churches that have the Eucharist, and that’s a pretty big difference. Yes, some worship styles may seem evangelical, but the teaching is decidedly Catholic. My friend calls it “Festive Catholic.”
At the end of mass, people smile and welcome me. I went to one parish for six months, and no one ever spoke to me - except to yell at me for taking her son’s seat. Should mass be all about feeling “at home?” No, I agree, it’s about Christ, and I always went. But this church is full of people who seem to genuinely love being at mass, instead of dragging their feet to fulfill a duty. For me, it’s where I feel comfortable worshipping, and never feel out of place. After all, a church should be a community that supports people, and we should be able to feel that love and support, even outside the rare social functions. The guitar music helps me to praise the Lord, and touches my heart in prayer. They also include more “classical” Catholic songs that I’ve known since a child, like “Here I am, Lord,” “On Eagles’ Wings,” and “Alleliua, Sing to Jesus,” or “How Great Thou Art.” This isn’t a teen mass, but I suspect many of you would dislike the music style nonetheless.
As for Teen Masses, I agree they can get out of hand, and we should be careful that kids get sound teaching at mass. But we also need to be careful that we don’t do things just because that’s the way it was done when we were young, to the detriment of the youths. Things can change - what matters is that we preserve the Eucharist, and teach reverence and love for the mass. We must welcome our youth, so they know they have a place in the Church, that they are wanted - this is never so important as when we are teenagers! I’m still in the Church because I had a priest who was ‘cool’ enough that I could sit down and have an honest discussion about all my questions when I was a teenager, without worrying about him yelling at me for questioning the way things have always been. His love of the Sacraments was incredible, and he inspired that same love in me.
I’m new to this website but I’ve been reading some of the posts in this forum, and wanted to jump in. Let me start by saying that I’m 25, and I grew up in a very traditional church, with a very solid CCD program. I loved it, and I loved the mass - always.
When I started high school, I became friends with a lot of Protestants and I was really attracted to their faith, and the fact that they studied the Bible and prayed together in a way that I had never seen done in the Catholic church - it wasn’t very “traditionally Catholic,” but it was nice to know that my friends were praying for me, and they shared my morals. Yes, sometimes it made me question my faith - through which, I grew immensely. My friends asked questions that I had never asked before, and it made me go seek the answers - luckily, I knew some great priests and found some great books, and started reading up. I AM drawn to much of the Protestant worship music, and that’s often what I listen to in the car. But I will never be Protestant, because they don’t have the Sacraments - if they can ever get the Eucharist, Confession, and Apostolic Succession, I could maybe end up there, but for now, that’s something that only the Catholic Church can claim.
I’ve moved around a lot in the last few years, and just registered in a new parish. I read a few of my journal entries from last spring, and one of the things I had written was that I’m Catholic to the core - I could never imagine NOT being Catholic, but at the same time, I was wondering if there was really a place for me in the Church, because I kept going to churches and not seeing anyone my age - I went in silently, sat down, and left as soon it was over, without anyone ever greeting me. In fact, I had one woman yell at me after mass because she said I had taken her son’s seat, even though the pew appeared empty and she didn’t say anything when I sat down. I wasn’t exactly feeling welcome. I was lonely, and realized that I had experienced more fellowship when I was living in a country without the opportunity to attend mass regularly - I had to travel a couple of hours to the capital, and worked to go to mass at least once a month, but certainly could not go every week.
Soon after last Easter, I found a young adult group that studies the writings of JPII. Through that group, I found a parish where I am now registered - it’s half an hour away, but when I go in, I feel at home. It’s not as traditional as what I grew up with, but the priest is wonderful and gives great homilies with sound Teaching.
Mass usually ends with an upbeat song (and yes, there are guitars) with praise to our Lord, and people start clapping along with the music. Although this surprised me at first, I can say that they are still very reverent, and they’re all happy to be at mass. How is this different from the Evangelical church down the street? Well, I don’t know of any Evangelical churches that have the Eucharist, and that’s a pretty big difference. Yes, some worship styles may seem evangelical, but the teaching is decidedly Catholic. My friend calls it “Festive Catholic.”
At the end of mass, people smile and welcome me. I went to one parish for six months, and no one ever spoke to me - except to yell at me for taking her son’s seat. Should mass be all about feeling “at home?” No, I agree, it’s about Christ, and I always went. But this church is full of people who seem to genuinely love being at mass, instead of dragging their feet to fulfill a duty. For me, it’s where I feel comfortable worshipping, and never feel out of place. After all, a church should be a community that supports people, and we should be able to feel that love and support, even outside the rare social functions. The guitar music helps me to praise the Lord, and touches my heart in prayer. They also include more “classical” Catholic songs that I’ve known since a child, like “Here I am, Lord,” “On Eagles’ Wings,” and “Alleliua, Sing to Jesus,” or “How Great Thou Art.” This isn’t a teen mass, but I suspect many of you would dislike the music style nonetheless.
As for Teen Masses, I agree they can get out of hand, and we should be careful that kids get sound teaching at mass. But we also need to be careful that we don’t do things just because that’s the way it was done when we were young, to the detriment of the youths. Things can change - what matters is that we preserve the Eucharist, and teach reverence and love for the mass. We must welcome our youth, so they know they have a place in the Church, that they are wanted - this is never so important as when we are teenagers! I’m still in the Church because I had a priest who was ‘cool’ enough that I could sit down and have an honest discussion about all my questions when I was a teenager, without worrying about him yelling at me for questioning the way things have always been. His love of the Sacraments was incredible, and he inspired that same love in me.
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netmilsmom
Guest
That’s a great story Sperantsa! I’m glad you found a home.
The problem is that while you like what is offered to you in that parish, in some places, that is all that is offered.
Now, imagine that you walked into that lovely parish and suddenly found that it had become very orthodox. With a wave, the happy music, the fun, all of it gone.
Now you know why so many people here are heartbroken and bitter. Your way of worshiping is all that is offered and their hearts long for the sacred.
I have no problem with the “Happy Catholic” mass. Everyone should be comfortable in the liturgy, but we all deserve our style. To me that is the sacred and orthodox. In many parts of the country, it is openly discouraged.
As for the parish where no one talked to you, did you volunteer your time there or were you passive? Maybe if you got involved instead of waiting for it to happen, you would have gotten to know some people.
Our parish plays hard and prays hard. We are very traditional. We have a welcoming group to get people involved, but then they are basically on their own. To be honest with you, we are praising God, helping the poor, feeding the hungry, volunteering in Senior Communities and with Right-To-Life. If you sit and wait, you may fall through the cracks but it’s not because we don’t love you, it’s because we come to Holy Mass for God. Socialization is in the hall after.
The problem is that while you like what is offered to you in that parish, in some places, that is all that is offered.
Now, imagine that you walked into that lovely parish and suddenly found that it had become very orthodox. With a wave, the happy music, the fun, all of it gone.
Now you know why so many people here are heartbroken and bitter. Your way of worshiping is all that is offered and their hearts long for the sacred.
I have no problem with the “Happy Catholic” mass. Everyone should be comfortable in the liturgy, but we all deserve our style. To me that is the sacred and orthodox. In many parts of the country, it is openly discouraged.
As for the parish where no one talked to you, did you volunteer your time there or were you passive? Maybe if you got involved instead of waiting for it to happen, you would have gotten to know some people.
Our parish plays hard and prays hard. We are very traditional. We have a welcoming group to get people involved, but then they are basically on their own. To be honest with you, we are praising God, helping the poor, feeding the hungry, volunteering in Senior Communities and with Right-To-Life. If you sit and wait, you may fall through the cracks but it’s not because we don’t love you, it’s because we come to Holy Mass for God. Socialization is in the hall after.
T
tmw
Guest
You’re joking with this audio file aren’t you?**Ridiculous! **
atos.stirlingprop.com/DoltonMc.mp3
It sounds like it was recorded at Yankee stadium. It’s definitely not church music, or at least not church music I care to listen to while worshiping God.
S
Sperantsa
Guest
Netmil(name removed by moderator),
I agree with you that it’s wonderful to be able to choose your parish - and living in Maryland, I have many churches to choose from. The tone of the posts, however, sounded to me like they were disparaging all of those more modern masses, rather than being grateful that we have options. I choose to drive thirty minutes to mass, even though there are four Catholic churches in my city - and yes, I do know what it’s like to not have any options, because when I was living in Europe, I had to travel to go to mass, and I really didn’t have many options as to which church to go to - where I lived, there was NO Catholic church in my entire county - and I was so busy praising the Lord that I could GET to mass, that I really didn’t have a lot of time to notice whether or not I was comfortable with the style. I joined in loud and strong with the Alleluia, because they don’t have hymnals there, and that was the only song I knew in their language. No, I don’t go to church to socialize, but a smile can make someone feel welcome, too. Or even just moving over when you see someone looking for a seat. It’s the little things that matter, and they don’t always require talking.
As for whether or not I volunteered at the othern church, I really couldn’t. It was a time when I was working crazy hours, going to school, trying to re-adjust to life in the U.S., and dealing with some health issues - I couldn’t really get involved with much else, at the time, plus it wasn’t really my parish and I didn’t intend to be in that area for very long. When I first arrived, I expected to move at Thanksgiving, then Christmas, then Easter, and it was July before I finally did. So yes, I was passive, but I still got a different vibe at this other church, even without really talking to anyone. It’s the feeling of joy, that everyone there is glad to be there, instead of just going because it’s Sunday. But overall, I do agree that it’s important to get involved - and I’ve already signed up to lector at my new parish.
I agree with you that it’s wonderful to be able to choose your parish - and living in Maryland, I have many churches to choose from. The tone of the posts, however, sounded to me like they were disparaging all of those more modern masses, rather than being grateful that we have options. I choose to drive thirty minutes to mass, even though there are four Catholic churches in my city - and yes, I do know what it’s like to not have any options, because when I was living in Europe, I had to travel to go to mass, and I really didn’t have many options as to which church to go to - where I lived, there was NO Catholic church in my entire county - and I was so busy praising the Lord that I could GET to mass, that I really didn’t have a lot of time to notice whether or not I was comfortable with the style. I joined in loud and strong with the Alleluia, because they don’t have hymnals there, and that was the only song I knew in their language. No, I don’t go to church to socialize, but a smile can make someone feel welcome, too. Or even just moving over when you see someone looking for a seat. It’s the little things that matter, and they don’t always require talking.
As for whether or not I volunteered at the othern church, I really couldn’t. It was a time when I was working crazy hours, going to school, trying to re-adjust to life in the U.S., and dealing with some health issues - I couldn’t really get involved with much else, at the time, plus it wasn’t really my parish and I didn’t intend to be in that area for very long. When I first arrived, I expected to move at Thanksgiving, then Christmas, then Easter, and it was July before I finally did. So yes, I was passive, but I still got a different vibe at this other church, even without really talking to anyone. It’s the feeling of joy, that everyone there is glad to be there, instead of just going because it’s Sunday. But overall, I do agree that it’s important to get involved - and I’ve already signed up to lector at my new parish.
M
maherite1977
Guest
I, along with three others, are on a spiritual journey to every church in the Diocese of Toledo (“Roamin’ Catholics”). Our journey tonight took us to the “Last Chance Mass” in the Diocese. Oh boy, were we in for a surprise. Guitars, tambourines, bongos, oh my! It was terrible! Not to mention the liturgical abuses performed during this well-attended Mass:
- Server brought out a handful of offertory gifts before Mass. Only wanted to make one trip - almost dropped everything in process.
- Priest, instead of formal opening to Mass, asked everyone what they were thankful for.
- In general - no one showed any reverence to the altar or to the priest.
- Priest used his own words during the Eucharistic Prayer.
- Music for the Mass invoked clapping on several occasions.
- No processional cross at all, only candles.
- Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion looked confused when I went to receive Communion on my tongue.
- Father did not even process out, he stood there and clapped with the folk group for the recessional hymn.
Scary stuff!
T
theelys
Guest
I have attended LifeTeen Mass and I have felt a little uncomfortable. At my parish they have a full band that takes them a couple of hours to set up in the choir loft. At the start of mass they go over every song that they will play. After about 10-15minutes the Mass begins. This is normally considered quiet prayer time for many to prepare themselves. Also, the lights in the church are all lowered and only the sanctuary and choir loft is lighted. This makes you feel like you’re at a concert with the focus on the entertainers.
I only go to this Mass when my teenage son wants to attend the gathering after mass for the teens. Fortunately, that’s not that often.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Yes, NONE.
The majority of those hymns are adaptations from various Latin chants, mostly Gregorian.
Nine of the ten are written for guitar in the English editions. The only English adaptation for organ in the whole list is Henry William Baker’s English translation, “O Sacred Head Surrounded,” of the Passion Chorale by Saint Bernard of Clairveaux, who died long before the technology to install pipe organs in churches yet existed - it is not possible for the Latin original to have been written for organ, therefore.
Sir Henry William Baker was a rector in the Anglican Church.
“O Sacred Head Surrounded” comes from his hymnal Hymns Ancient and Modern which was written for use in Anglican and Presbyterian churches.
M
mosher
Guest
You are correct. In fact this was addressed by one of the early 1900’s liturgical reforms when a ban was placed on all styles of music at mass except Chant and Sacred Polyphony. This was also done a few hunderd years earlier when there was a ban placed on the practice of the medieval gloss in some liturgical chants. Every once in a while the Church has to clean its musical house because the nature of Sacred Music tends to be so complicated for people to understand that it gets out of controll in the liturgy.
You are correct. What was done in the Church was to take the traditional Latin hymns and write organ music for them. The reason why the organ was allowed in the act of worship in the first place was that it closely mimicked the human voice which is the proper instrument for worship. I would argue that the East has a better understanding of this than the West since the use of instruments of any sort are not allowed in their forms of Liturgy.Yes, NONE.
The majority of those hymns are adaptations from various Latin chants, mostly Gregorian.
Nine of the ten are written for guitar in the English editions. The only English adaptation for organ in the whole list is Henry William Baker’s English translation, “O Sacred Head Surrounded,” of the Passion Chorale by Saint Bernard of Clairveaux, who died long before the technology to install pipe organs in churches yet existed - it is not possible for the Latin original to have been written for organ, therefore.
Sir Henry William Baker was a rector in the Anglican Church.
“O Sacred Head Surrounded” comes from his hymnal Hymns Ancient and Modern which was written for use in Anglican and Presbyterian churches.
There are in fact many Catholic hymns that were written for organ or just for a Capella and can be found in the old breviary and I believe in the Liber Usualis. Many of the traditional catholic tunes are still found in the current Breviary but there has been introduced many good hymns of protestant origin also. Traditionally hymns were not used at Mass so most people did not have access to them for a very long time or until such things as the St. Gregory Hymnal was developed.
Perhaps this is the reason why Catholic Hymnody has not developed. Perhaps it is because hymns are not, strictly speaking, proper to the Holy Mass.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
So adapted from, makes it not Catholic?
I don’t get it.
Sorry, but as I said, play an organ for people, they think church.
Play a guitar, they don’t.
T
twiggymoo
Guest
J
jmcrae
Guest
Okay. In simple terms - the hymns you linked to, in order to “prove” that the Catholic Church writes its hymns on the organ.
9 of those hymns come in two forms. Chant. (Human voice alone.) And guitar. No original organ music exists for those 9 - any that exists is adapted either from the chant or from the guitar music.
1 hymn has organ music for the English edition.
Which was written for a Protestant hymnal by an Anglican.
Yes - but that could be because we live in a majority-Protestant society, and because their notions of “church” may be (and probably are) influencing our thinking. Not because there is anything particularly Catholic about organ music. Since no organ music has ever been written by Catholics for Mass - that I know of, or that you have found yet.
Borrowing Protestant organ music that was written for Protestant liturgies and adapting it for Mass does not cause that music to become Catholic.
- Status