Arrgh! Horrible "Surprise" at Mass today

[JimR-OCDS]

You are using a term univocally that is being used equivocally. While in English (and especially the Catholic Encyclopedia which uses an archaic form of English) we only have the word worship. However, in liturgical theology met with common American English worship proper is only what St. Augustine calls latria. The CE also cites what St. Augustine calls dulia and hyperdulia. In current English this is not termed worship as the CE has it but rather we now use the term honor and “highest honor” in what the CE calls “contingent forms of worship.”

What you seem to not understand is that worship proper only happens in the Divine Liturgy for one specific reason. Worship, by necessity, cannot be separated from sacrifice. It is only in the offering of Sacrifice that full and authentic worship is accomplished.

Just like the order of worship under the New Covenant was given to us for our edification so too was the order of worship under the Old Covenant. Both were equally given and both were equally given for the sake of the people. The difference is the efficacious nature of the New over the Old. However, under both the primary object is not man but God. This is essential to having a proper Catholic understanding of worship. In theology we use the word object in a very specific way. For instance when an arrow is shot at a target we say that the object of the arrow was the target. In a sense it speaks to the Final Cause. In the play of the Mass we find that God is both the object and the end to which it is directed. This is the reason why a majority of the words of the Mass are not spoken to man but to God. Without taking the time to go into a detailed study of the nature and parts of the Mass (any Divine Liturgy) there is a part that is the focus on man to dispose them to enter into and participate in the Sacrifice of the New Covenant. When the Canon of the Mass begins, however, a radical shift is made which transitions the plane of the Mass to a totally vertical nature.

I would suggest some good works on Liturgical Theology focused specifically on the Mass.

First and foremost “Spirit of the Liturgy” by Romano Guardini
the “Spirit of the Liturgy” by Joseph Ratzinger
“Wellspring of Worship” by Jean Corbon

These are nice places to start and are very accessible in their language as opposed to some of the other works on the Liturgy that I would also like to suggest.

If you would like some serious reading the “bible” of the Liturgy is called “Theological Dimensions of the Liturgy” by Dom Cyprian Vagaggini. It is about 1000 pages of a systematic study of the liturgy and it has no peer among the works concerning its topic.

I understand your explanation of “worship” in the theological context. Well done!

However, it doesn’t negate what I’ve been saying all along, that the Mass is a gift to us.

Jim

 

[VociMike]

VociMike;1640253:

“return increasingly,” doesn’t mandate one type of music nor exclude contemporary music. How the music does that is according to the words used.

Are you proposing that the words are the sole criterion for sacred music? That is a very Protestant-sounding theory.

As far as it’s beauty, that’s relative to the taste of the congregation in general.

There are higher standards of beauty than “the taste of the congregation”.

Your dislike of contemporary music at Mass, doesn’t necessarily mean it doesn’t fit into what the Pope has said, but rather it’s your own opinion and taste in music.

Actually, I very much like contemporary music at Mass, if it has been composed in accordance with the guidelines set forth by the Church. What I don’t like is the junk that has ignored those guidelines.

Let me ask you, do you think that contemporary music composed for the liturgy should follow the guidelines laid down by the Church, or should ignore them?

 

[mosher]

I understand your explanation of “worship” in the theological context. Well done!

However, it doesn’t negate what I’ve been saying all along, that the Mass is a gift to us.

Jim

No, of course I would never negate what you are saying because it is true in a sense. My point and the point that needs to be driven home to most people these days is that the primary purpose for Mass is not us but rather it is God. We in turn are filled through our participation at the Mass in a secondary albeit linked way to the primary. Too often we approach the Mass with a “what can I get out of it” mentality as opposed to the more proper “what can I give” disposition.

 

[lak611]

No, of course I would never negate what you are saying because it is true in a sense. My point and the point that needs to be driven home to most people these days is that the primary purpose for Mass is not us but rather it is God. We in turn are filled through our participation at the Mass in a secondary albeit linked way to the primary. Too often we approach the Mass with a “what can I get out of it” mentality as opposed to the more proper “what can I give” disposition.

Mosher, you have understood it right! Mass is not about what “I get” but rather what “I give”. It’s supposed to be focused on God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not about us humans. If I don’t like the music, the sermon, the prayers, etc., does not matter. I offer it up to God. Besides, I am receiving my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Nothing else could really take the place of that Sacrament. If He is there, that is really all that matters.

 

[CatholicNerd]

I, too, have walked out of a Mass in Alaska. While I realize that it was reprehensible and that my Sunday obligation was not fulfilled (ergo I committed a mortal sin), I must say that I can sympathize with the OP.

After having seen so many beautiful OCA parishes on my vacation, I couldn’t stomach what happened in Mendenhall. The church was bizarrely constructed. It wasn’t a church in the round, but more of a church-in-the-square. lol. To the parish’s credit, there were beautiful icons written on large planks on the back wall.

I expected the Mass to be reverently celebrated and to perhaps even feature portions in Aleut and Tlingit like I’d heard on Ancient Faith Radio. Oy. The priest came in carrying the sacred vessels (all glass, naturally) and asked if anyone had highs to share from the week. Ok, no big deal, I thought, I’ve experienced this before. But apparently that was his idea of an introit because we skipped the penitential rite and went straight to the Gloria… it got worse and worse. When he asked the congregation to write down their most intimate fears and addictions on a paper cutout of a shoe, I’d had enough. I got up and left.

I then convinced my dad to let us drive out to the Shrine of St. Therese of Lisieux, which was constructed in the '30’s on a man-made Island outside of Juneau. The parish church looked GORGEOUS on the outside. I went in to find that it had been completely wreck-o-vated. The altar was nothing more than a table, and there were OCP misalletes in every pew. I left as fast as I could.

Jump forward a week and a half to my arrival in Sitka: I went straight for the Cathedral of Saint Michael the Archangel. There was no ambiguity about what sort of worship was offered there, and I didn’t even have to attend a service to figure that out (I did later in the week, though. Heavenly.)… I lit a candle before the icon of Our Lady of Sitka, begged God’s forgiveness for walking out of Mass, and left. Ran into the priest and his family after dinner and asked if there would be any services during the week… there was an Akathist to St. Herman of Alaska being offered so I went. I knew all of the melodies and timidly started singing and soon enough I was singing right along with the rest of them. Again… HEAVENLY. I’ll admit that I was curious about what the Catholic parish in Sitka was like. The old parish church looked from the outside to be quite lovely. I tried to go in over the course of multiple days but alack, the building was always locked.

From what I’ve seen, the Catholic Church in Alaska could really use an overhaul. I can totally sympathize with the OP…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No, of course I would never negate what you are saying because it is true in a sense. My point and the point that needs to be driven home to most people these days is that the primary purpose for Mass is not us but rather it is God. We in turn are filled through our participation at the Mass in a secondary albeit linked way to the primary. Too often we approach the Mass with a “what can I get out of it” mentality as opposed to the more proper “what can I give” disposition.

Agreed! I think I misunderstood before in my earlier post.

I guess it’s easy to forget, being I get so much out of Mass.

Jim

 

[mosher]

Mosher, you have understood it right! Mass is not about what “I get” but rather what “I give”. It’s supposed to be focused on God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not about us humans. If I don’t like the music, the sermon, the prayers, etc., does not matter. I offer it up to God. Besides, I am receiving my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Nothing else could really take the place of that Sacrament. If He is there, that is really all that matters.

This beings up another question. Look for another thread soon to be started.

 

[wynd]

I expected the Mass to be reverently celebrated and to perhaps even feature portions in Aleut and Tlingit like I’d heard on Ancient Faith Radio. Oy. The priest came in carrying the sacred vessels (all glass, naturally) and asked if anyone had highs to share from the week. Ok, no big deal, I thought, I’ve experienced this before. But apparently that was his idea of an introit because we skipped the penitential rite and went straight to the Gloria… it got worse and worse. When he asked the congregation to write down their most intimate fears and addictions on a paper cutout of a shoe, I’d had enough. I got up and left.

You do know Ancient Faith Radio is Orthodox, right?

Out of curiosity, were you visiting Catholic or Orthodox churches? I’m pretty sure (Roman) Catholic parishes don’t sing akathist hymns.

 

[CatholicNerd]

You do know Ancient Faith Radio is Orthodox, right?

Out of curiosity, were you visiting Catholic or Orthodox churches? I’m pretty sure (Roman) Catholic parishes don’t sing akathist hymns.

Sorry for the confusion. I was attempting to contrast the beauty I found at the Orthodox churches in Alaska with the mediocrity (and worse) that I encountered at the Catholic ones. I’d thought that perhaps the Roman church had followed the practice of the Orthodox and assimilated some of the native melodies and language (since they’re so keen to do it for our Spanish speaking brethren here in the lower 48). They didn’t. OCP all the way. Nothing remotely orthodox about the Catholic parishes. No chant, no sacred polyphony… just OCP garbage. Not even Aleut or Tlingit music. Vatican II should have preserved all of the above. I am clueless as to why the so-called “missionary” spirit of Vatican II has not taken hold up there (note that I am NOT a Vatican II detractor. I think it was a good and timely thing).

Were it not for the illumination given to me at my Confirmation, I would have begged the Orthodox priest in Sitka to receive me into the Orthodox faith.

I only wrote the post to second the OP’s assessment of the faith up there. Things are awful, and it’s difficult for people surrounded by liturgical beauty to accept liturgical mediocrity and desecration.

 

[wynd]

Sorry for the confusion. I was attempting to contrast the beauty I found at the Orthodox churches in Alaska with the mediocrity (and worse) that I encountered at the Catholic ones. I’d thought that perhaps the Roman church had followed the practice of the Orthodox and assimilated some of the native melodies and language (since they’re so keen to do it for our Spanish speaking brethren here in the lower 48). They didn’t. OCP all the way. Nothing remotely orthodox about the Catholic parishes. No chant, no sacred polyphony… just OCP garbage. Not even Aleut or Tlingit music. Vatican II should have preserved all of the above. I am clueless as to why the so-called “missionary” spirit of Vatican II has not taken hold up there (note that I am NOT a Vatican II detractor. I think it was a good and timely thing).

Were it not for the illumination given to me at my Confirmation, I would have begged the Orthodox priest in Sitka to receive me into the Orthodox faith.

I only wrote the post to second the OP’s assessment of the faith up there. Things are awful, and it’s difficult for people surrounded by liturgical beauty to accept liturgical mediocrity and desecration.

I agree with you 100%. Though it is no longer a “deal-breaker” issue, the catalyst which drove me to look at the Orthodox faith in the first place is the beauty of their faith and traditions compared to the blandness or complete absence of ours.

 

[Vicia]

If it wasn’t for “contemporary” music I wouldn’t even BE in The Church. It was because of the words of a contemporary song at my parish that I started coming back to Church and it is still through the words of contemporary songs (traditional as well) that I find my greatest connection, my greatest communication, with God. 1 Corinthians 9:22b-23 - “I have become all things to all, to save at least some. All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.”

I have a question for you. Why would the music make you want to be a part of any church? You can go anywhere and play whatever music you want. Does it make you more attracted to the Catholic church that they let you play what you want to play? I am just very curios here. I am not understanding how music, that not everyone can participate in because it is so complex, would make you or anyone more tolerant of the church. A lot of the music that was made before the 1600s was made so that all can participate, this is why it is better. It was more reverant twords Christ. It is not self-pleasing because it is not for us. It was written purely to raise our eyes to the Lord. Why is this bad?

 

[dessert]

Wow! Guess I’m in the signifcant minority when I say that I like the “contemporary” Mass. I love that kind of music. In fact, I sing and play guitar for my parish’s contemporary group.

I wonder why people take such a strong stance on having “traditional” music. What makes that music any better than contemporary? Have you even looked at the authors of these traditional hymns? Half of them are Protestant, yet we sing them all the time. What makes those hymns ok but not newer ones? And what if the newer ones were done by Catholic artists? Would that make it ok?

If it wasn’t for “contemporary” music I wouldn’t even BE in The Church. It was because of the words of a contemporary song at my parish that I started coming back to Church and it is still through the words of contemporary songs (traditional as well) that I find my greatest connection, my greatest communication, with God. 1 Corinthians 9:22b-23 - “I have become all things to all, to save at least some. All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.”

Have you heard Gretchen Harris? I have her Sing of Mary and Sing to the Lord. I have a lot of newsboys and that is very upbeat and when I really want to get going during the day I put in my contemp cd’s but for worship service I prefer the music that is quiet but there are many contemp that are quiet. Petra does a version of the Lord’s prayer that is awesome but then it is to guitar loud quitar so I gues just to listen at home is my solace. I was in churches non C that the sound was just too loud the songs were nice but then the noise level was too high it did give me headaches but some people jusst fall asleep if something is quiet . My husband does when we go to a symphany orcheststra he nods off and to me it feels like a very nice tranquilizer but not sleep,. I love ave maria but then you are probably a guy so you maybe it is not your favorite so I have been looking for singers who have a cd and the one that puts it on her chrismas album almost every year is barbra streistan and I go to the library and take out ones I might want to buy and some of the noontraditional music for christmas is very good and very original but I think the sound in church does not have to be so loud. They upgraded our sound system now the speakees can’t handel it. The system is old and we don’t have the money for it.

return from the desert

 

[Holland]

No, this is a common and modern misconception of the Mass. I believe that this misconception happened when Pope St. Pius X ordered that Catholics receive communion on a frequent basis. I am not saying that his directive was a bad thing in itself but rather it began the common perspective that the Mass was for us and for us to receive Christ. In fact reception of communion is not necessary but once a year during the Pascal Season.

The purpose of Mass, the reason we go to Mass, is not primarily to receive Holy Communion but rather it is to offer the necessary worship due the Father. So, in the primary the Mass is our duty to worship directed at the Father with the Son through the Holy Spirit. In a mysterious way as we direct ourselves to the Father He in turn fills us. However, if we are going to Mass for our own purposes and not primarily for the worship of God then we do not understand the purpose of the mass and therefore we cannot make proper proximate preparation.

You have finally explained what I have been feeling for the last 6 months or so. I returned to the Church a couple of years ago after a very long time away from my faith. When I was young it was drilled into my head by the nuns that the primary reason we were at Mass was to worship God. What I found when I returned to the Church was something different; a feeling of people attending Church to get something. I struggle with this constantly and wondered if I was just out of touch.

 

[OSPX]

Wow! Guess I’m in the signifcant minority when I say that I like the “contemporary” Mass. I love that kind of music. In fact, I sing and play guitar for my parish’s contemporary group.

I wonder why people take such a strong stance on having “traditional” music. What makes that music any better than contemporary? Have you even looked at the authors of these traditional hymns? Half of them are Protestant, yet we sing them all the time. What makes those hymns ok but not newer ones? And what if the newer ones were done by Catholic artists? Would that make it ok?

If it wasn’t for “contemporary” music I wouldn’t even BE in The Church. It was because of the words of a contemporary song at my parish that I started coming back to Church and it is still through the words of contemporary songs (traditional as well) that I find my greatest connection, my greatest communication, with God. 1 Corinthians 9:22b-23 - “I have become all things to all, to save at least some. All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.”

Many of those who are fighting for a traditional Mass are not fighting for hymns written by Protestants. Usually they are referring to Gregorian chant and polyphony. Both of which are not only traditional and ancient, (older than the EDIT Protestant hymns your talking about) they also are distinctly Catholic, and it was the Catholic Church herself who nurtured them.

 

[mosher]

You have finally explained what I have been feeling for the last 6 months or so. I returned to the Church a couple of years ago after a very long time away from my faith. When I was young it was drilled into my head by the nuns that the primary reason we were at Mass was to worship God. What I found when I returned to the Church was something different; a feeling of people attending Church to get something. I struggle with this constantly and wondered if I was just out of touch.

It sounds to me like you are on the right track. You have retained an insight into the nature of the Mass that many have lost. Hold on to that and nurture it in your spiritual life. Pass it on to others as the nuns gave it to you. It has been my experience especially with working with youth that if they are taught that the Mass is not about them then they are able to begin to grow in their relationship with Jesus and their experience of Mass becomes deeper as well. Sounds like you had good nuns.

 

[dessert]

I made a mistake on the statement about Petra, they redid Amazing Grace not the Lords prayer which is still nice. Sorry! Our state just had a referendom and it was voted yes for the death penalty so please pray for us!
thank you and may God you all Pax
return from the desert

 

[WenckebachCath]

I’m very thankful for some of the wonderful hymns written by our Protestant brethren. I always look at the bottom to see who the original author was. It’s quite obvious, when it was written by an Englishman in the 1800’s that it was most likely a non-Catholic.

I do enjoy Gregorian Chant, don’t get me wrong. But I think more modern composers can be inspired by the spirit as well. Some of our Protestant brethren have really written some jewels and I’m glad we sing them.

Don’t forget that the English speaking world has traditionally been a Protestant one, except for Ireland. Great Britain and Scotland are largely Protestant. The Anglican church has a beautiful history of traditional music praising God. They tend toward a more formal liturgy, and put a great emphasis on artistic expression in liturgy based in tradition.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I don’t mind the modern type of mass. I have been going to different churches and masses. Some were very old fashioned and used organs, some were for middle school kids and some for teens. In fact at my uni we have the modern kind of mass which is pretty much designed by students.

I can understand when someone claims that he doesn’t like it. Fine, that’s his personal preference. On the other hand I really don’t like when people start calling it inferior. Just because he is a ‘conservative’ it doesn’t make him right.

I personally fell that such masses aren’t for entertainment but so people can relate themselves to the music more easily. It’s about praising god and being present at the mass. For a lot teenagers this is hard during old-fashion masses - a lot of them feel as if they stepped into their old-fashioned grandma’s house.

 

[CatholicNerd]

I don’t mind the modern type of mass. I have been going to different churches and masses. Some were very old fashioned and used organs, some were for middle school kids and some for teens. In fact at my uni we have the modern kind of mass which is pretty much designed by students.

I can understand when someone claims that he doesn’t like it. Fine, that’s his personal preference. On the other hand I really don’t like when people start calling it inferior. Just because he is a ‘conservative’ it doesn’t make him right.

I personally fell that such masses aren’t for entertainment but so people can relate themselves to the music more easily. It’s about praising god and being present at the mass. For a lot teenagers this is hard during old-fashion masses - a lot of them feel as if they stepped into their old-fashioned grandma’s house.

I realize that God is outside the bonds of time, but humans have had contact with Christ for 2006 years. How’s that for old-fashioned?

Did you know that Roman Chant has its roots in the modes used in theTemple itself? Even the venerable Byzantine Chant is newer, though I suppose it is a bit more “pure” than Gregorian Chant, historically speaking… but I digress. At any rate, I would hardly call a Mass with chant like stepping into my grandmother’s house. To me it’s more like stepping into my Father’s.

 

[mosher]

I don’t mind the modern type of mass. I have been going to different churches and masses. Some were very old fashioned and used organs, some were for middle school kids and some for teens. In fact at my uni we have the modern kind of mass which is pretty much designed by students.

I can understand when someone claims that he doesn’t like it. Fine, that’s his personal preference. On the other hand I really don’t like when people start calling it inferior. Just because he is a ‘conservative’ it doesn’t make him right.

I personally fell that such masses aren’t for entertainment but so people can relate themselves to the music more easily. It’s about praising god and being present at the mass. For a lot teenagers this is hard during old-fashion masses - a lot of them feel as if they stepped into their old-fashioned grandma’s house.

My experience with youth has shown the opposite. Even among the “Life-Teen Generation” I have seen that when they finally have the opportunity to go to a more traditional mode of the Holy Mass they are left with a sense of the sacred that they had never before experienced. From then they seem to have a desire that is directed to a more traditional form. I don’t know exactly why this is but it seems to prove out every time that I have seen. Granted, a teen that doesn’t get much out of a modern setting will not get much out of a traditional setting but that itself proves that before anyone can get the most out of Mass (no matter the setting) the interior life of the person must be disposed to the spiritual reception of God at Divine Worship.