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JimR-OCDS
Guest
It’s not us rejecting them, but their rejection of us. I haven’t seen any stories of people who like contemporary music, storming out of a TLM, upset, angry and in tears.
Jim
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Jim
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Walking_Home
Guest
It is Christ’s Mass for our benefit–and since the Church only has been entrusted to offer His Mass for us-- Only She has the authority to direct how the Mass is to be.
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Island_Oak
Guest
I don’t think he needed any help from me.
My “sarcasm” was aimed at the out-of-control rants–that likely have nothing at all to do with music–but arise from a clearly unbalanced personality. The post clearly took aim at the OP’s gripe (not him personally) with a pretty lighthearted and humorous approach as opposed to anything that could be considered biting, antagonistic sarcasm. There is a meaningful difference.
If you think I am the one with a problem on this thread, please trouble yourself to re-read the posts wherein the OP talks about wanting to punch out a priest and inflict other violence, and perhaps reconsider your opinion. I have no issue with folks expressing coherent and differing opinions about things like music offered at mass. I do have an issue with the pathologically irrational using this forum to provoke and rant, rather than remedy or reasonably debate differing views.
As for my youth and inexperience…I’m probably longer in the tooth than you, but will gladly accept any prayers you want to offer on my behalf
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mosher
Guest
No, this is a common and modern misconception of the Mass. I believe that this misconception happened when Pope St. Pius X ordered that Catholics receive communion on a frequent basis. I am not saying that his directive was a bad thing in itself but rather it began the common perspective that the Mass was for us and for us to receive Christ. In fact reception of communion is not necessary but once a year during the Pascal Season.
The purpose of Mass, the reason we go to Mass, is not primarily to receive Holy Communion but rather it is to offer the necessary worship due the Father. So, in the primary the Mass is our duty to worship directed at the Father with the Son through the Holy Spirit. In a mysterious way as we direct ourselves to the Father He in turn fills us. However, if we are going to Mass for our own purposes and not primarily for the worship of God then we do not understand the purpose of the mass and therefore we cannot make proper proximate preparation.
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Still_Trying
Guest
Island Oak: My “sarcasm” was aimed at the out-of-control rants–that likely have nothing at all to do with music–but arise from a clearly unbalanced personality. The post clearly took aim at the OP’s gripe (not him personally) with a pretty lighthearted and humorous approach as opposed to anything that could be considered biting, antagonistic sarcasm. There is a meaningful difference.
It was not lighthearted and humorous. It was rude and insulting. I’m not the only one with this opinion.
If you think I am the one with a problem on this thread, please trouble yourself to re-read the posts wherein the OP talks about wanting to punch out a priest and inflict other violence, and perhaps reconsider your opinion. I have no issue with folks expressing coherent and differing opinions about things like music offered at mass. I do have an issue with the pathologically irrational using this forum to provoke and rant, rather than remedy or reasonably debate differing views.
I have re-read the posts. It sounds like he is very upset and angry at what is happening to the Church…understandably. And since I attend the same parish and know the person I think I would have a better feel for it than you would.
I would hardly call his statements pathalogical. Many folks use this forum for “venting” their frustrations. It looks to me as that is what he’s doing. If you think about it, it’s a smart move…better than venting at a person/people face-to-face, right?
As for my youth and inexperience…I’m probably longer in the tooth than you, but will gladly accept any prayers you want to offer on my behalf
You have no way of approximating my age based on the postings in this forum. Though I’m not sure why it would matter. I was refering moreso to a maturity level and having the time to devolop a respect towards others, not a chronilogical state.
It was not lighthearted and humorous. It was rude and insulting. I’m not the only one with this opinion.
If you think I am the one with a problem on this thread, please trouble yourself to re-read the posts wherein the OP talks about wanting to punch out a priest and inflict other violence, and perhaps reconsider your opinion. I have no issue with folks expressing coherent and differing opinions about things like music offered at mass. I do have an issue with the pathologically irrational using this forum to provoke and rant, rather than remedy or reasonably debate differing views.
I have re-read the posts. It sounds like he is very upset and angry at what is happening to the Church…understandably. And since I attend the same parish and know the person I think I would have a better feel for it than you would.
I would hardly call his statements pathalogical. Many folks use this forum for “venting” their frustrations. It looks to me as that is what he’s doing. If you think about it, it’s a smart move…better than venting at a person/people face-to-face, right?
As for my youth and inexperience…I’m probably longer in the tooth than you, but will gladly accept any prayers you want to offer on my behalf
You have no way of approximating my age based on the postings in this forum. Though I’m not sure why it would matter. I was refering moreso to a maturity level and having the time to devolop a respect towards others, not a chronilogical state.
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lvande
Guest
Amen!! Or what about places that have to perform mass in secret?? How would you all feel about going to mass in Africa and seeing people dancing during mass? Are these people all sinning?? I think not. I think people have a hard time with change (think vatican II) even when it comes to small things. This is not a change in church doctrine to have a change in church music. Focus on the eucharist and loving your neighbor during mass and you will be much happier.
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Isidore_AK
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FYI Oak, I stuck this thread in the water cooler because I just wanted to vent my frustrations. I didn’t need you or anybody else telling me that I sinned (I know that!), or that I’m “pathologically irrational”. I already KNOW what my problems are. I sure EDIT don’t need some anonymous wanna-be psychologist giving me a hard time on the net. A Mod took it upon themselves to move my thread here, I did not request it. I avoided the liturgy and sacraments forum especially because I didn’t want to debate whether or not there should be EDIT Teen Masses.
For the record, I may not LIKE Teen Masses, but I haven’t said that they shouldn’t be done. My problem is with the surprise (remember that from the title?!?) of having one of the last “traditional” (organ, cantor, crappy 70’s music) Masses that I can make it to get turned into a Teen Mass WITH NO WARNING. This has been my parish my whole life, I was Baptised in that parish. Over the last year, the Archbishop has removed our priest of 16 years, and installed a new guy who has been changing things on us. I have every right to be angry.
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Still_Trying
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Good point. No one likes change. Especially with no warning. There wasn’t a single word said that this would be changed. I’m sure the OP would have just gone to a different parish/mass time if there had been.
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mosher
Guest
This is another misconception in the argument. I think this misconception is in the way it is argued. It has nothing to do with Traditional versus Contemporary music. Rather it has to do with the nature of Sacred Music. The problem is that not much “Contemporary Music” can qualify as Sacred Music based on the documents and studies on the subject.
At times change in liturgical praxis is the most important issue. Liturgy is not something of our own creation that we can manipulate at will. Even the Holy Father is bound on certain issues concerning the Liturgy. Right Worship is just as important in all its aspects and right doctrine as it is in doctrine that we come to know the written part of the Sacra Doctrine but it is in the Liturgy that we have access to the Tradition of the Church. When the Liturgy is not done properly in all its aspects we can lose a proper understanding of our Catholicity.
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VociMike
Guest
Now wait a minute, Jim. My opinion does not enter into the matter here. The Holy Father Pope John Paul II said “the Christian community must make an examination of conscience so that the beauty of music and song will return increasingly to the liturgy. It is necessary to purify worship of deformations, of careless forms of expression, of ill-prepared music and texts, which are not very suited to the grandeur of the act being celebrated.”
The pope’s phrase “will return increasingly” tells us that (a) the beauty of music and song was in the past more present in the liturgy than it is now, and that (b) we are called to do something differently, to “fix the problems”, to purify our worship in order to return to that desirable state.
And the problems are not just, or even primarily, about poor musicians. There were poor musicians in the past era too, but still there was more beauty in music and song than there is today. No, “deformations, careless forms of expression, ill-prepared music and texts” refers, clearly, to the music more than to the musicians. Complaints about the music in parishes today is about the songs themselves, and about the instrumental ensembles, much more than it is about the skill of the musicians. Nobody who thinks that e.g. “Gather Us In” is a poor excuse for liturgical music thinks that is is a poor excuse only because the musicians don’t play well enough. Not all music is of equal value as music in the liturgy. It’s a simple concept which many are adamant in rejecting.
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tkdnick
Guest
Hey Isidore,
Just wanted to say thanks for the clarification. With all of the discussion going on and change of direction, I had lost what the original issue was. Just to make sure - you have more of an issue with the fact that there was no previous announcement/warning that a change was coming than the fact that the music had changed.
Is this new priest changing all of the Masses to this type of Mass? It sounded like, from some of your other posts, that ability to get to Mass isn’t always easy in your area. Is there a possibility of switching either Masses or parishes? I’m sure that would probably be an extremely difficult decision to make, but might be a consideration for yours and others health.
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DWPC
Guest
In the spirit of acceptance of change, I’ll pray that hip-hop and rap soon make their entry into our liturgical spectrum so we can *really *attract the young, and that this blessing be introduced first in the parishes of certain CAF posters who so easily berate those who don’t share their musical tolerance.
I can hear the cantor now:
“We be gathered, Yo…”
I can hear the cantor now:
“We be gathered, Yo…”
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CRW
Guest
The Saturday Vigil Mass uses the readings and Mass offered for Sunday. The 7 pm Mass reads the Sunday Mass and readings.
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Isidore_AK
Guest
Yes. Primarily I was ticked off that the Mass was changed, without any prior warning, to something that I would not have chosen to attend. I’m one of those people who really, really hate surprises, especially unpleasant ones.
As a secondary issue I was angry about the creation of such a Teen Mass at our parish, but I would merely have found something less odious to attend…
My wife and I are on a later schedule, and we prefer to attend an evening Mass. That being said, there are a couple of other possibilities across town, and earlier in the day. Most of the parishes around here are pretty…fluffy? liberal? I’m not sure how to describe them. Most of the parishes have amplified “praise & worship” bands, guitar and tambourine “folk” music, or something similar. Our parish was the last to use only an organ for all English masses. The priest has been at our parish for about 8 months now, and things have changed since Fr, G was removed by the Bishop (there’s a story about that I posted in another thread).
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upperdarby
Guest
Hi Isidore,
We have a similar teen Mass in our area at 6pm. I also really disliked this music at the beginning, but I felt that if it was really helping the church, then who am I to complain to the Holy Spirit. So I prayed for the grace to appreciate the music if the Holy Spirit approved of it. It has made all of the difference. I like most of this music now. However, I still find the hand/body gestures done during some songs appallingly awkward. It may require a miracle to gain appreciation of that stuff.
We have a similar teen Mass in our area at 6pm. I also really disliked this music at the beginning, but I felt that if it was really helping the church, then who am I to complain to the Holy Spirit. So I prayed for the grace to appreciate the music if the Holy Spirit approved of it. It has made all of the difference. I like most of this music now. However, I still find the hand/body gestures done during some songs appallingly awkward. It may require a miracle to gain appreciation of that stuff.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Actually the Mass is a gift to us. We don’t need the Mass to worship God, but we can not receive from God, the body and blood of Jesus, without the Mass. At Mass, we are asking God, to make the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus, our spiritual food. Read the words of the Eucharistic paryers.
Also, the Mass is a living sacrafice, in which we give the Father thanks. Even if we don’t receive communion, we still receive grace from God by our mere presence at Mass.
God doesn’t need us, but we need God and we go to Mass to ask God to fill that need.
Jim
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WenckebachCath
Guest
I don’t think he needed any help from me.
As for my youth and inexperience…I’m probably longer in the tooth than you, but will gladly accept any prayers you want to offer on my behalf
As for “offering prayers” I believe that’s similar to a left handed compliment. You know, “I’ll pray for you” = “I have utter disdain for you”
As far as the original poster, I had no idea that folk style Masses were so disparaged. He seems very angry, as do many of those who agree with him on this thread.I don’t understand where the anger is coming from.
Personally, I enjoy traditional and contemporary music, I’m pretty eclectic in my tastes. I love seeing young people participate. I don’t understand what all the fuss is on this thread. I’ve never heard people talk like this in real life.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Oh, Oh! My sides! I can’t breathe!
Really now. Give me an example of a TLM unexpectedly popping up anywhere!!!
…oh that was rich…
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dessert
Guest
I think seething in anger and hatred is a good reason to leave. I said it already, I wanted to beat the tar out of the priest for doing this. I get very very angry, and if I don’t remove myself from the cause of my anger I get physically violent. It was better that I leave. Y’all can tell me as much as you want that I should have stayed, but I know I did the right thing. Its better to leave than to assault the priest.
Also, I originally posted this thread in the “back fence” forum because I just wanted to vent, not EDIT debate people about what happened. I attended that Mass because its one of the few in this diocese that I find acceptable. Most of the rest are already contempo masses, hippy masses (y’know, with acoustic guitars and tamborines…), or rock’n roll masses. This was one of the last refuges from the dreck you get at most masses…and now its gone, without so much as a EDIT warning! Arrrrgh!
I’m sorry you are so mad. I pray you can calm down and take a deep breath let it out. It sounds something like has gone on in our church the sudden changes I mean. it is like they are getting messages that we are all set into our ways and we need to learn to change?
There is a rational way to handle this like going into to see the priest take someone with yoou. Call the bishhop? I have gotten the impression at my church that they are trying to seperate the young /middle age from the oldsters through various means. I think it is so they establish their own faith with God instead of mom and pop faith and an identity with the priest as father instead of mom and pop which maybe isn’t a bad idea because after all mom and pop will be gone someday .Example 80 year old pop still lights the candles 85 year old mom still fills the holy water. But we have always done it this way? Unfortunatlly I also get the feeling it is because they? not sure who thinks that the mom and pops have not done well in instructing us all. I suppose the priest would have to turn the volume down after awhile like for instanc now there is a church luthern I think has a sign out in front of the church have your articles blessed here!They were selling books in the lobby and maybe he allowed this just to see if there were any objections?
This hasn’t probably helped much let us know what happens next week.
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