Arrgh! Horrible "Surprise" at Mass today

[mosher]

Actually the Mass is a gift to us. We don’t need the Mass to worship God, but we can not receive from God, the body and blood of Jesus, without the Mass. At Mass, we are asking God, to make the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus, our spiritual food. Read the words of the Eucharistic paryers.

Also, the Mass is a living sacrafice, in which we give the Father thanks. Even if we don’t receive communion, we still receive grace from God by our mere presence at Mass.

God doesn’t need us, but we need God and we go to Mass to ask God to fill that need.

Jim

This absolutely an incorrect understanding of Catholic theology. It is only in the action of the Divine Liturgy that worship is offered. Everything else is either an act of praise or adoration but worship qua worship only occurs at mass.

 

[AquinaSavio]

I didn’t say you;

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t remember anyone who said that they want only Gregorian chants. We merely want Traditional music…that’s not too much to ask.

No, this is a common and modern misconception of the Mass. I believe that this misconception happened when Pope St. Pius X ordered that Catholics receive communion on a frequent basis. I am not saying that his directive was a bad thing in itself but rather it began the common perspective that the Mass was for us and for us to receive Christ. In fact reception of communion is not necessary but once a year during the Pascal Season.

The purpose of Mass, the reason we go to Mass, is not primarily to receive Holy Communion but rather it is to offer the necessary worship due the Father. So, in the primary the Mass is our duty to worship directed at the Father with the Son through the Holy Spirit. In a mysterious way as we direct ourselves to the Father He in turn fills us. However, if we are going to Mass for our own purposes and not primarily for the worship of God then we do not understand the purpose of the mass and therefore we cannot make proper proximate preparation.

God doesn’t need us, but we need God and we go to Mass to ask God to fill that need.

Jim

You’re right…and that brings us to the point: the Mass is about God. We have to show Him that we love Him, by going to Mass and doing our P.A.R.T. (Prayer, Adoration, Reparation, Thanksgiving). He feeds our souls as a reward for serving Him. So, the Mass is not about us…it is about pleasing God.

 

[jmcrae]

Oh, Oh! My sides! I can’t breathe!
Really now. Give me an example of a TLM unexpectedly popping up anywhere!!!

…oh that was rich…

TLMs are actually quite popular these days, and they are popping up “unexpectedly” (to the parishioners) in various places. We have a daily TLM in our Diocese that “popped up” out of the efforts of several people who were working very quietly behind the scenes to get the Bishop’s permission, hire an FSSP priest, and get times at a parish church.

I’ll bet there were a lot of people who showed up to noon Mass on that Sunday morning and were amazed to find the Altar rails back in the Sanctuary, the Rosary being recited publicly during the prayer time (hey, what a concept - praying during prayer time), nobody up there with a microphone trying to engage everyone’s attention to teach them the psalm refrain or the Alleluia. I expect there was at least a little bit of culture shock - it is an outlying parish, after all, with all the jazz that entails. (I love living downtown, I must say.)

 

[Wolseley]

It’s not us rejecting them, but their rejection of us. I haven’t seen any stories of people who like contemporary music, storming out of a TLM, upset, angry and in tears.

Jim

Tridentine Masses typically do not invite abuses such as the celebrant being dressed as a clown, teenage girls prancing around in the aisles waving veils, rock bands complete with double-base drum sets and Peavey amplifiers playing profane music, and all of the other host of nonsense that has been foisted off on the faithful in the Mass of Paul VI.

Ergo, there is no reason for a contemporary music lover to storm out of a Tridentine Mass.

 

[tkdnick]

"It is necessary to purify worship of deformations, of careless forms of expression, of ill-prepared music and texts, which are not very suited to the grandeur of the act being celebrated." Pope John Paul II

I’m sorry, I just couldn’t resist this little joke.

The words of the Psalms, joyful singing, and a stringed instrument (similar to a lyre)…

…Sounds like a Chris Tomlin song to me!

 

[Wolseley]

In the spirit of acceptance of change, I’ll pray that hip-hop and rap soon make their entry into our liturgical spectrum so we can *really *attract the young, and that this blessing be introduced first in the parishes of certain CAF posters who so easily berate those who don’t share their musical tolerance.

I can hear the cantor now:
“We be gathered, Yo…”

Yeah! Reminds me of the Bible in “Strine”, or Australian slang:

"There was this sheila who came across a snake-in-the-grass with all the cunning of a con man. The snake asked her why she didn’t just grab lunch off the tree in her garden.

"God, she said, had told her she’d be dead meat if her fruit salad came from that tree, but the snake told her she wouldn’t die. So she took a good squiz and then a bite and passed the fruit on to her bloke.

“Right then and there, they’d realized what they’d done and felt starkers.” (Genesis 3:6-7)

 

[mosher]

I would also say that for the balanced Catholic it is not a matter of the style of music so much but rather the appropriate type of music for liturgical actions. Unfortunately most “contemporary” (for lack of a better term) types of music do not qualify as Sacred Music which is the only type of music fitting for assisting the liturgy. Perhaps the easiest discussion about this is found in “Spirit of the Liturgy” by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. However, every liturgical document of the Church on this topic is echoed in his comments.

The problem is that most contemporary forms of music are intrinsically banal and appeal to the passions and not the higher functions of the soul. This type of music while the norm for music outside the liturgy is not to be used in the liturgy. Rather it is supposed to be simple, catechitical, based in liturgical or scriptural text (depending on the piece and part of the mass) and also not appeal to emotional sensibilities. In short it is to reflect the noble simplicity intrinsic to the nature of the Latin Liturgy. It should both contain a strong reflection of the transcendentals (the good the true and the beautiful) as objective qualities and not subjective likes or dislikes and express contemplation of Divine Realities in and through the transcendentals.

At its foundation this is not an argument that can be made out of personal preference or taste but rather it must be a discussion about the objective nature of Sacred Music.

 

[DWPC]

Yeah! Reminds me of the Bible in “Strine”, or Australian slang:

"There was this sheila who came across a snake-in-the-grass with all the cunning of a con man. The snake asked her why she didn’t just grab lunch off the tree in her garden.

"God, she said, had told her she’d be dead meat if her fruit salad came from that tree, but the snake told her she wouldn’t die. So she took a good squiz and then a bite and passed the fruit on to her bloke.

“Right then and there, they’d realized what they’d done and felt starkers.” (Genesis 3:6-7)

Yo, I be down with that, homes.

 

[LilyM]

Hey, Strine is a legitimate part of our culture, just as Ebonics (African-American slang) is for Americans.

I for one would love to see a mass begin with 'in the name of the Fizzle and the Shizzle … ’ (Ebonic Rite) or ‘in the name of the Old Codger [Father] and the Little Mate [Son] …’ (Strine Rite)

[end sarcasm here]

 

[Paganus]

Part of the problem could be that his secretary/“gatekeeper” may not forward your letters to him. If you get a chance to speak with him personally, please avail yourself of the opportunity and present a copy of your letter/evidence in person. I know people take advantage of that opportunity with Cardinal George.

Just guessing, but I doubt if he receives much in the way of complimentary correspondence. More than likely, he gets mostly complaints. If you can go heavy on sincere appreciation and go light on the grievances, you will get a more favorable reception. Lobbying 101.

 

[steve_green_2]

Lifeteen Mass = Legal

The mass of Pope St. Pius V, countless saints, codified by other popes, died for by martyrs, = Need Permission

Seem a bit odd ???

 

[Victorious]

A priest once told me that when one is attending a Mass that is offensive simply keep your focus on the crucifix until the final blessing.

Lots of churches don’t even have a crucifix anymore; or if they do, it’s visible only through a 12-inch refracting telescope.

I don’t understand all the folks that are so indignant that the OP got up and walked out. An irreverent Mass is an injustice. We have a right to a properly celebrated liturgy, and I can’t understand why so many people don’t care about the widespread violation of their rights.

 

[lak611]

As for “offering prayers” I believe that’s similar to a left handed compliment. You know, “I’ll pray for you” = “I have utter disdain for you”

I don’t consider that to be sarcastic at all. It sounds like the OP has a lot of issues in his life, and I will pray for him also. If somebody offers to pray for me, I never question their motives. I believe that praying for someone is probably the best gift that can be given to them. God hears prayer and answers it. If somebody prays for me, I don’t question their motives, I just say “thank you”.

 

[Mikel12]

I also would like to see more youth in the Catholic Church, but not when they bring their misconceptions of God to his holy alter. So many people think that the church should change so as to fit into our times as opposed to it being the other way round. Some of the people I know keep on telling me that they dont come to church because our worship is boring.

This reminds me of Jesus’ disciples who abandoned him when Jesus told them that unless they eat his body and drink his blood, they will have no life. They dont tell us in scripture that Jesus begged them to stay, instead he asked the others who stayed if they also wanted to leave. I dont mind people leaving the church as long as it sticks to the truth, because they will be “committing spiritual suicide”, as Francis De Sales puts it.

Those who want semi nude dancers in church under the pretext of “a fashionable church”, can leave for all I care. The catholic church should never lose focus by entertaining such ideas.

 

[LilyM]

steve green 2:

Lifeteen Mass = Legal

The mass of Pope St. Pius V, countless saints, codified by other popes, died for by martyrs, = Need Permission

Seem a bit odd ???: confused:

Ummm … the Mass of St Pius V was NOT what the early Roman martyrs, or indeed many saints prior to Pius V, lived and died under. Nor would any Eastern Catholic or Eastern Christian saint or martyr (and there are plenty of 'em to be sure) have had this particular liturgy either.

And if the Novus Ordo had been around then or during the Reformation I should think they would’ve lived and died for it too. I hope, pray and believe that I would be strong enough to do so as well if it came down to it.

The Mass of Pius V did not come down to us written on stone tablets from the hand of God himself. It is not inherently better or more productive of holiness than any other VALID and LICIT form of liturgy. To say or imply that it is is an absolute insult to our Maronite, Melkite and other Eastern Catholic brothers who never have celebrated it and never will celebrate it.

 

[AquinaSavio]

I also would like to see more youth in the Catholic Church, but not when they bring their misconceptions of God to his holy alter. So many people think that the church should change so as to fit into our times as opposed to it being the other way round. Some of the people I know keep on telling me that they dont come to church because our worship is boring.

This reminds me of Jesus’ disciples who abandoned him when Jesus told them that unless they eat his body and drink his blood, they will have no life. They dont tell us in scripture that Jesus begged them to stay, instead he asked the others who stayed if they also wanted to leave. I dont mind people leaving the church as long as it sticks to the truth, because they will be “committing spiritual suicide”, as Francis De Sales puts it.

Great points…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This absolutely an incorrect understanding of Catholic theology. It is only in the action of the Divine Liturgy that worship is offered. Everything else is either an act of praise or adoration but worship qua worship only occurs at mass.

This is not accurate. There is worship in The Liturgy of the Hours and in Benediction. In fact, Benediction is solely worship.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia, I posted only what was relevant to this conversation.

Worship

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Lat. cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing.

There are several degrees of this worship:

**if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; **

This is done in Mass, Liturgy of the Hours and Benediction.

But Mass is also about God giving to us.

There was worship of God, prior to the Last Supper. The Last Supper, the which is the Mass, is Jesus’s gift to us.

To suggest that the Mass is nothing other than our worship of God, is inaccurate theology and would make the prayers of the Mass false.

Jim

 

[netmilsmom]

TLMs are actually quite popular these days, and they are popping up “unexpectedly” (to the parishioners) in various places. We have a daily TLM in our Diocese that “popped up” out of the efforts of several people who were working very quietly behind the scenes to get the Bishop’s permission, hire an FSSP priest, and get times at a parish church. )

My apologies. A whole one.
Well then I guess it’s happening everywhere.

Wish it would pop up as unexpectantly in as many parishes as the modern masses do.

 

[catholicrock]

Ummm … the Mass of St Pius V was NOT what the early Roman martyrs, or indeed many saints prior to Pius V, lived and died under. Nor would any Eastern Catholic or Eastern Christian saint or martyr (and there are plenty of 'em to be sure) have had this particular liturgy either.

And if the Novus Ordo had been around then or during the Reformation I should think they would’ve lived and died for it too. I hope, pray and believe that I would be strong enough to do so as well if it came down to it.

The Mass of Pius V did not come down to us written on stone tablets from the hand of God himself. It is not inherently better or more productive of holiness than any other VALID and LICIT form of liturgy. To say or imply that it is is an absolute insult to our Maronite, Melkite and other Eastern Catholic brothers who never have celebrated it and never will celebrate it.

I’m pretty sure the Novus Ordo didn’t come down to us written on stone tablets from the hand of God, either…

 

[mosher]

This is not accurate. There is worship in The Liturgy of the Hours and in Benediction. In fact, Benediction is solely worship.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia, I posted only what was relevant to this conversation.

Worship

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Lat. cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing.

There are several degrees of this worship:

**if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; **

This is done in Mass, Liturgy of the Hours and Benediction.

But Mass is also about God giving to us.

There was worship of God, prior to the Last Supper. The Last Supper, the which is the Mass, is Jesus’s gift to us.

To suggest that the Mass is nothing other than our worship of God, is inaccurate theology and would make the prayers of the Mass false.

Jim

You are using a term univocally that is being used equivocally. While in English (and especially the Catholic Encyclopedia which uses an archaic form of English) we only have the word worship. However, in liturgical theology met with common American English worship proper is only what St. Augustine calls latria. The CE also cites what St. Augustine calls dulia and hyperdulia. In current English this is not termed worship as the CE has it but rather we now use the term honor and “highest honor” in what the CE calls “contingent forms of worship.”

What you seem to not understand is that worship proper only happens in the Divine Liturgy for one specific reason. Worship, by necessity, cannot be separated from sacrifice. It is only in the offering of Sacrifice that full and authentic worship is accomplished.

Just like the order of worship under the New Covenant was given to us for our edification so too was the order of worship under the Old Covenant. Both were equally given and both were equally given for the sake of the people. The difference is the efficacious nature of the New over the Old. However, under both the primary object is not man but God. This is essential to having a proper Catholic understanding of worship. In theology we use the word object in a very specific way. For instance when an arrow is shot at a target we say that the object of the arrow was the target. In a sense it speaks to the Final Cause. In the play of the Mass we find that God is both the object and the end to which it is directed. This is the reason why a majority of the words of the Mass are not spoken to man but to God. Without taking the time to go into a detailed study of the nature and parts of the Mass (any Divine Liturgy) there is a part that is the focus on man to dispose them to enter into and participate in the Sacrifice of the New Covenant. When the Canon of the Mass begins, however, a radical shift is made which transitions the plane of the Mass to a totally vertical nature.

I would suggest some good works on Liturgical Theology focused specifically on the Mass.

First and foremost “Spirit of the Liturgy” by Romano Guardini
the “Spirit of the Liturgy” by Joseph Ratzinger
“Wellspring of Worship” by Jean Corbon

These are nice places to start and are very accessible in their language as opposed to some of the other works on the Liturgy that I would also like to suggest.

If you would like some serious reading the “bible” of the Liturgy is called “Theological Dimensions of the Liturgy” by Dom Cyprian Vagaggini. It is about 1000 pages of a systematic study of the liturgy and it has no peer among the works concerning its topic.