Arrogance & Hypocrisy of "Traditionalists"

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BulldogCath:
Deacon

I have seen their website and they state that they are in obedience or something like that to John Paul II, so it seems as if they are obedient-I understand that there was a meeting with the Pope and Archbishop Lefebvre that ended with SSPX not agreeing to some of the demands of the church, hence the Fraternity of St Peter was formed -from priest and laity who were promised by the Vatican that if they come back “in communion” with Rome they would be allow to worship in only the Traditional manner and doctrine using the 1962 missal and the like. So some of the priests left SSPX and went along with this offer from the Vatican and the rest left, Lefebve consecrated his Bishops, and hence excommunication-or something like that. It turns out that the promise made at the time in 1988 has been already broken as Cardinal Arinze and others are now forcing these priests to perform the Novus Ordo Mass among other Vatican II forms of worship, and there is a greater mistrust now on the part of the Traditionalist towards the vatican , and this only makes the rift worse and more persons drawn to the Traditionalists, on top of the mistrust from the sex abuse scandals, the corruption, and ecumenism and overtures to non-catholic faiths that are turning off the conservative catholics
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Bulldog, as a previous poster noted, I also have much sympathy with Traditionalists. However, you are absolutely misstating facts. The Vatican is NOT forcing Traditionalists priests to say the new Mass. The question was posed: Can Traditionalist priests (specifically members of the FSSP) be prohibited from celebrating the new Mass. The answer from the Vatican was, no they may not be prevented from saying the new Mass if they so desire. This says nothing about *forcing *them to celebrate it.

I ask you to please provide a link giving an example of the Vatican forcing a FSSP priest to say the new Mass.
 
Nota Bene:
No, you don’t. The Church left the decision of whether of not to allow the indult with the local ordinaries.

The Anglican-Use Mass is GORGEOUS. Once Cranmer’s writings were corrected for orthodoxy, they make for a wonderful Mass.
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Just curious…where might I find one of these Anglican Use Masses in my area? Should I contact my diocese? This is fascinating. I never knew such a thing existed. God bless the www. I literally learn something new everyday. 🙂
 
Exporter said:
Dr. Bombay http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_online.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_457703”, true);
Junior Member

I would classify myself as a Traditional Catholic. I have been Roman Catholic for almost 50 years.

Dr. Bombay are you a nontraditional Catholic? I know Bulldog Catholic is a traditional Catholic, he seems to rub you the wrong way. Are you a nontraditional Catholic?
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I attend the TLM here in my area every week. It’s an indult Mass said by a priest of the FSSP. However, I also attend the new Mass whenever I have the chance. I hate liturgical abuses in the new Mass, I loathe seeing lay people distributing Communion when there is clearly no need for them, I despise most modern church “music,” I abhor modern church architecture. So, yes, I guess you could call me “traditional” if you must label me. But if the Pope came out tomorrow and completely banned the TLM, I’d find a tolerable new Mass parish and be there every Sunday. I certainly wouldn’t associate myself with schismatics and decalre myself more Catholic than the Pope.

Bulldog does not rub me the wrong way. His misstatements rub me the wrong way. I know something about the FSSP as I’ve followed and supported them since the very beginning. Since we’re located so close to the Seminary, we are blessed in that we have several different priests come down and say Mass from time to time. These are good men who love the Church and love the Pope. I don’t like to see them put on par with the SSPX. They are not and I will point that out when necessary. I will also defend them when equated with schismatics.
 
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BulldogCath:
Deacon

I have seen their website and they state that they are in obedience or something like that to John Paul II, so it seems as if they are obedient-I understand that there was a meeting with the Pope and Archbishop Lefebvre that ended with SSPX not agreeing to some of the demands of the church, hence the Fraternity of St Peter was formed -from priest and laity who were promised by the Vatican that if they come back “in communion” with Rome they would be allow to worship in only the Traditional manner and doctrine using the 1962 missal and the like. So some of the priests left SSPX and went along with this offer from the Vatican and the rest left, Lefebve consecrated his Bishops, and hence excommunication-or something like that. It turns out that the promise made at the time in 1988 has been already broken as Cardinal Arinze and others are now forcing these priests to perform the Novus Ordo Mass among other Vatican II forms of worship, and there is a greater mistrust now on the part of the Traditionalist towards the vatican , and this only makes the rift worse and more persons drawn to the Traditionalists, on top of the mistrust from the sex abuse scandals, the corruption, and ecumenism and overtures to non-catholic faiths that are turning off the conservative catholics
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Bulldog,

Your characterization of what happened is not even in the correct zipcode. I suggest you do some more research on what really happened. Patrick Mardid just recently published a book, “More Catholic Than The Pope”, which painstakingly details exactly what happened. It is very well documented. There are very few websources that will give you a non-SSPX skewed version of what happened.

You can start here:

home.earthlink.net/~grossklas/

I am all for tradition. I prefer:

Sanctus bells
Communion rails
Altarboys
getting rid of EMHCs
Latin responses in the Ordo Missae
return of the sanctuary
etc

What I am not for is giving groups like the SSPX a hall pass in the name of tradtionalism.

-Ted
 
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Fogny:
As a Catholic I would not even consider this.

Fogny
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Sigh And here’s the problem: Anglican usage is permitted by the Holy See, by the Pope. They got shed of what couldn’t be kept (the prayer of consecration, the general absolution, etc.), added our prayer of consecration and it’s allowed. This was done under the authority of the Vicar of Christ on earth, the Sucessor to Saint Peter, who holds the power to bind and loose. If you are saying that *this *liturgy is invalid, then you are speaking heresy. You can say you don’t like it, you can say you prefer something else, but if you deny that the Sacrifice is confected in this ritual, it’s heresy, not because you’re denying Cranmer’s prose, not because you’re deploring an Anglican influence, but because you are denying that Christ is made present in the Species AND you’re denying the authority of the Pope. And I guess I’m mean and unkind and uncivil by pointing this out.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Just curious…where might I find one of these Anglican Use Masses in my area? Should I contact my diocese? This is fascinating. I never knew such a thing existed. God bless the www. I literally learn something new everyday. 🙂
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It exists in very few places, though I anticipate with the rupture widening in the Anglican Communion, there will be more. Yes, contact your diocese. It’s a lovely Mass, celebrated ad orientam more often than not, you kneel at a rail for communion (wow, don’t I sound traditional). Also, Google it, there is an exceptional Anglican Use parish in San Antonio, Texas.
 
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BulldogCath:
**I am devout and a follower, but it seems the more educated you become in the Catholic faith, as most traditionalist are, and unfortunatly most Novus Ordo attendees are not. **
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Remember in my earlier post when I said the Rad Trads were "contemptous, rude and arrogant? See example quoted above.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
It exists in very few places, though I anticipate with the rupture widening in the Anglican Communion, there will be more. Yes, contact your diocese. It’s a lovely Mass, celebrated ad orientam more often than not, you kneel at a rail for communion (wow, don’t I sound traditional). Also, Google it, there is an exceptional Anglican Use parish in San Antonio, Texas.
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Here is a link to the Anglican parish

atonementonline.com/intro.html

As a side note a very interesting site as now I know the Novus Ordo liturgy is not Catholic it is protestant.

Fogny
 
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BulldogCath:
**I am devout and a follower, but it seems the more educated you become in the Catholic faith, as most traditionalist are, and unfortunatly most Novus Ordo attendees are not. **
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Remember in my earlier post when I said the Rad Trads were “contemptous, rude and arrogant?” See example quoted above.
Please, Bulldog, ora pro nobis, that we may become as smart as you. Do you listen to yourself!!! If you want people to attend to what you say, perhaps attend the TLM, perhaps become as devoted to it as you, why don’t you watch how you put things? As it stands, between you, RLSiscoe, and TNT, I would FLEE a TLM!!! Who wants to go somewhere where you’re going to be talked down to, and where (to my imagination, at least), everyone must be sitting around and congratulating themselves on their holiness…in Latin.
 
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Fogny:
Here is a link to the Anglican parish

atonementonline.com/intro.html

As a side note a very interesting site as now I know the Novus Ordo liturgy is not Catholic it is protestant.

Fogny
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And you came to that conclusion how? The NO and the rite used in the Anglican Usage parishes are totally different.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
And you came to that conclusion how? The NO and the rite used in the Anglican Usage parishes are totally different.
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Hello JKirk,

I want you to know this is the first time I have ever seen a Anglican text of their liturgy and it is very surprising to me the similarity between the NO prayers and consecration language.

Anglican :
Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink

Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father

"TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT IT:THIS IS MY BODYWHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU **"TAKE THIS , ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT:****THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD,****THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALLSO THAT SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN.**DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME."
The Celebrant says, Therefore we proclaim the mystery of faith:

And the people respond: Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again. Fogny
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Sigh And here’s the problem: Anglican usage is permitted by the Holy See, by the Pope. They got shed of what couldn’t be kept (the prayer of consecration, the general absolution, etc.), added our prayer of consecration and it’s allowed. This was done under the authority of the Vicar of Christ on earth, the Sucessor to Saint Peter, who holds the power to bind and loose. If you are saying that *this *liturgy is invalid, then you are speaking heresy. You can say you don’t like it, you can say you prefer something else, but if you deny that the Sacrifice is confected in this ritual, it’s heresy, not because you’re denying Cranmer’s prose, not because you’re deploring an Anglican influence, but because you are denying that Christ is made present in the Species AND you’re denying the authority of the Pope. And I guess I’m mean and unkind and uncivil by pointing this out.
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I am not saying that, I just think that the Latin Rite is Catholic.
The Anglo- Catholic is Modernist at best.

Fogny
 
For hundreds of years the modernists have tried to undermine the church it’s teachings and foundation.They wanted many changes
to the liturgy and theological teachings .We have that now .Many
Masses “Pick your flavor”.The church has suffered greatly in the past
37 years since the Novus Ordo and the "Do As Thy Wilst " attitude
among the clergy.The San Francisco Diocese recently had a Pagan prayer to mother earth on there website.The church is fraught with sexual scandal and bankruptcy by lawsuits.Catholics are leaving in droves mass attendance is at an alltime low.
I pray for this Church and Our Pope to find a renewed vigor to find truth!
Most young people have never witnessed the beauty and solemnity
of the roman rite.Pray that it will return.I am partial to the Roman rite .And have to rise at 6:00 am to get to mass 60 miles away in a small out of way chapel.My Bishop is anti LM so be it.

Say what you want . Truth is in the ages.

Fogny
 
Dr. Bombay:
But if the Pope came out tomorrow and completely banned the TLM, I’d find a tolerable new Mass parish and be there every Sunday. .
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This is what it is to be Catholic. Obedience by choice not coincidence. Those of us who like the current Mass situation (even though in most other venues I am rather traditional and always orthodox) must also be as obedient, should things change to a more traditional Mass.
 
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Fogny:
Hello JKirk,

I want you to know this is the first time I have ever seen a Anglican text of their liturgy and it is very surprising to me the similarity between the NO prayers and consecration language.

Anglican :
Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink

Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, thealmighty Father

"TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT IT:THIS IS MY BODYWHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU **"TAKE THIS , ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT:****THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD,****THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALLSO THAT SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN.**DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME."
The Celebrant says, Therefore we proclaim the mystery of faith:

And the people respond: Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again. Fogny
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That was the part that had to be put IN when these Episcopalians became Catholic. That isn’t the original part that Cranmer wrote, except for the Mystery of Faith. But ya know what that offeratory prayer is? It’s the prayer Jews said as the blessing over bread and wine, or so I was told, and so probably what Jesus really said at the institution of the Eucharist
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Remember in my earlier post when I said the Rad Trads were “contemptous, rude and arrogant?” See example quoted above.
… As it stands, between you, RLSiscoe, and TNT,** I would FLEE a TLM**!!! Who wants to go somewhere where you’re going to be talked down to, and where (to my imagination, at least), everyone must be sitting around and congratulating themselves on their holiness…in Latin.
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  1. I came to the RCC via an Anglican Use Parish in Arlington, TX. Without doubt the most VATII - intended Mass in the FT Worth diocese.
  2. Here’s a suggestion:
    Remove your imagination and replace it with some facts.
    By
    Taking the time out to go to a TLM in Las Vegas
    ***Our Lady of Victory
    ***1575 E. Windmill Ln. Las Vegas, NV 89123
    FATHER PETER OTTO, USAF Chaplain, Ret.
    ***Sunday Mass, 10 a.m. and 12 p.m.;
    ***Confessions heard before Mass
    Rosary before Mass.
    You need not attend as a Sun. obligation, go to an NOM Sat eve. or late/early Sun.
    This is an SSPX parish, as there is no indult TLM permitted for Las Vegas by the bishop. I surmise do to the completely understandable mis-reading by the bishop of “generous application” of Ecclesia Dei. (No episcopal arrogance, disobedience to intent, or meaness possible?)
    (They do have one in the Reno Diocese.)
    After you attend, meet the people after Mass as they have a informal gathering after Mass. Interview some of them, then come back here and report your findings. These will be the “worst of the Trads”. The priest may delay getting to the gathering because of confessions, but he’ll be accessible for you to interview.
    Then you speak from authority of experience, instead of “my imagination”.
    I believe this would be a great service of sacrifice to all of us here, and therefore a blessing.
    How about it? What a great post that would be!
    As they say in Vegas “put your money where your mouth is.”
 
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Fogny:
For hundreds of years the modernists have tried to undermine the church it’s teachings and foundation.They wanted many changes
to the liturgy and theological teachings .We have that now .Many
Masses “Pick your flavor”.The church has suffered greatly in the past
37 years since the Novus Ordo and the "Do As Thy Wilst " attitude
among the clergy.The San Francisco Diocese recently had a Pagan prayer to mother earth on there website.The church is fraught with sexual scandal and bankruptcy by lawsuits.Catholics are leaving in droves mass attendance is at an alltime low.
I pray for this Church and Our Pope to find a renewed vigor to find truth!
Most young people have never witnessed the beauty and solemnity
of the roman rite.Pray that it will return.I am partial to the Roman rite .And have to rise at 6:00 am to get to mass 60 miles away in a small out of way chapel.My Bishop is anti LM so be it.

Say what you want . Truth is in the ages.

Fogny
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I’m not sure if these things are as a result of the New Mass. I myself go to the Tridentine Mass every Sunday and I think it is far superior in beauty and reverence, but I cannot blame the New Mass for the above problems. The New Mass happened to come around at the same time that these things began happening so it’s easy to say it is the cause.

The real problem was a movement known as the “sexual revolution.” This movenment made sex the most important thing in life. And since pretty much everyone on earth enjoys sex, it was easy for people to fall into the trap. The problem is, the Catholic Church has “repressive” sexual teaching, so people have found themselves at great odds with the Church (even though, as we know, in reality it’s teaching is the most free and least repressive; the only kind allowed is where nothing is held back, including the commitment to marriage).

You couple this problem with absolute morality, truth, and religion becoming taboo in public and “tolerance” for everyone and everything becoming the highest virtue in Western society, and naturally people do not want to go to a Chuch that does not support these ideas. Likewise, saying something is wrong is “discriminatory” and “elitest,” definite no-nos in America and Europe. In return, many parishes are unfortunately trying to cater to these mentalities to keep people coming and to maintain face in their community.

I don’t think the New Mass is the cause of this. I think the abuses of the New Mass are a result of this. I think the New Mass on EWTN is a great example of how it can be done right. I’ve been to a few parishes that also do it solemnly and reverently.

As for abusive priests, I believe the majority of the charges stem from a while back and from what I’ve seen, the accused priests have been older. I think these priests already had deep-rooted sexual issues and they entered the priesthood to escape them. The “sexual revolution” may have brought it to the forefront of their psyche I think. I suspect these disturbed priests would have had problems regardless of what form the liturgy had.

I hope this makes sense.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
That was the part that had to be put IN when these Episcopalians became Catholic. That isn’t the original part that Cranmer wrote, except for the Mystery of Faith. But ya know what that offeratory prayer is? It’s the prayer Jews said as the blessing over bread and wine, or so I was told, and so probably what Jesus really said at the institution of the Eucharist
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Hello,

Your statement about the Jewish prayer and probably what Jesus really said, is troubling.
The Roman Rite of the mass was by and large taken from scripture that is why it was called “the most beautiful thing this side of heaven”. Also as taken from scripture catholics were assured it was free from error.
Sadly this point has been lost and we now have the NO,Ang-Use and in the future others. We through the abuses of V2 now have masses that are approved by the Church but in reality are not Catholic.
I being old enough to have been baptised and confirmed in the old way, know the difference.
I cannot understand the acceptance of the Ang-use and the persecution of the Latin Rite. In my diocese make no mistake the bishop has no use for it and it is just plain wrong.
I will never take part in this greatest of all heresies a liturgy that takes from Jewish,Protestant,and Gnostic Liturgies. It is not Catholic.

Fogny
 
The San Francisco Diocese recently had a Pagan prayer to mother earth on there website.
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Whoa!!! I’m going to stop you right here. Just so you know, within hours of being contacted by the Catholic Media Coalition regarding this prayer, it was down from the site. It’s going to take Archbishop Levada years to clean the crud out of the S.F. diocese and I’m sure there are many dissidents still to be uncovered. Let’s give the diocese a little credit for taking it down. Under the old bishop it would still be there!
 
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