Arrogance & Hypocrisy of "Traditionalists"

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Genesis315:
I’m not sure if these things are as a result of the New Mass. I myself go to the Tridentine Mass every Sunday and I think it is far superior in beauty and reverence, but I cannot blame the New Mass for the above problems. The New Mass happened to come around at the same time that these things began happening so it’s easy to say it is the cause.

The real problem was a movement known as the “sexual revolution.” This movenment made sex the most important thing in life. And since pretty much everyone on earth enjoys sex, it was easy for people to fall into the trap. The problem is, the Catholic Church has “repressive” sexual teaching, so people have found themselves at great odds with the Church (even though, as we know, in reality it’s teaching is the most free and least repressive; the only kind allowed is where nothing is held back, including the commitment to marriage).

You couple this problem with absolute morality, truth, and religion becoming taboo in public and “tolerance” for everyone and everything becoming the highest virtue in Western society, and naturally people do not want to go to a Chuch that does not support these ideas. Likewise, saying something is wrong is “discriminatory” and “elitest,” definite no-nos in America and Europe. In return, many parishes are unfortunately trying to cater to these mentalities to keep people coming and to maintain face in their community.

I don’t think the New Mass is the cause of this. I think the abuses of the New Mass are a result of this. I think the New Mass on EWTN is a great example of how it can be done right. I’ve been to a few parishes that also do it solemnly and reverently.

As for abusive priests, I believe the majority of the charges stem from a while back and from what I’ve seen, the accused priests have been older. I think these priests already had deep-rooted sexual issues and they entered the priesthood to escape them. The “sexual revolution” may have brought it to the forefront of their psyche I think. I suspect these disturbed priests would have had problems regardless of what form the liturgy had.

I hope this makes sense.
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Amen! You’re an example of the reasons that I use the term “rad-Trad” instead of lumpin everyone in the same boat!
 
Deacon

I dont claim to be an expert of SSPX, but the double standard against them and the entire sprit of Vatican II that we are supposed to go and learn about these other false faiths-and yes they are false faiths from the Hindus, the Buddhist, the Protestants and the Orthodox we are pushed to pray for them time and time again-the Koran is even on the Catholic websites-but when it comes to traditional Catholics and teachings-that is taboo-and if you have a brain, and most people here do have one-there is a reason why the Vatican and the present heirarchy wants the laity to stay away from the traditionalists-because they can easily expose the present day teachings of the church as false and against past chuch doctrine-it will be reveresed, not in my lifetime but in the next 100 years or so Vatican III will reverse all of this false ecumenism and reinstate the TLM- sort of like Ronald Regan restored some sanity back to the country after 20 years of Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and Watergate and Carter.
Deacon Ed:
Ted,

While it is true that the SSPX was established as a *pia unio *(pius union which is a lay association) the society itself as well as Rome recognize that the intent was to establish it as a *pia domus *which would have been first step in establishing a religious order.

You are also correct that regardless of their intention, the establishment was *ad experimentum *for six years. That six years has long since elapsed and has not been renewed.

In matters of schism, however, it’s important to note that only clerics belong to the SSPX. Lay person may attend an SSPX chapel, but they do not, thereby, become members of the SSPX. Thus, it is clear that the SSPX acts as a priestly society rather than a pius union of lay persons.

Deacon Ed
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JKirkLVNV:
Remember in my earlier post when I said the Rad Trads were “contemptous, rude and arrogant?” See example quoted above.
Please, Bulldog, ora pro nobis, that we may become as smart as you. Do you listen to yourself!!! If you want people to attend to what you say, perhaps attend the TLM, perhaps become as devoted to it as you, why don’t you watch how you put things? As it stands, between you, RLSiscoe, and TNT, I would FLEE a TLM!!! Who wants to go somewhere where you’re going to be talked down to, and where (to my imagination, at least), everyone must be sitting around and congratulating themselves on their holiness…in Latin.
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When posting we need to be succinct and distict. Why? So others will understand us. In my opinion what BulldogCatholic posted was an attempt to say what he meant and mean what he said in a succinct manner. It seems that you, JKirk, have a disagreement with Bulldog. Go back and reread what he said.

What I am becoming tired of are the almost daily jabs at anyone who prefers TLM. There is developing a new set of terms that are used to put down ordinary old-fashioned traditional Roman Catholics. As the man in L.A. said when beated by police, “Can’t we just all get along?”
 
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Fogny:
Hello,

Your statement about the Jewish prayer and probably what Jesus really said, is troubling.
The Roman Rite of the mass was by and large taken from scripture that is why it was called “the most beautiful thing this side of heaven”. Also as taken from scripture catholics were assured it was free from error.
Sadly this point has been lost and we now have the NO,Ang-Use and in the future others. We through the abuses of V2 now have masses that are approved by the Church but in reality are not Catholic.
I being old enough to have been baptised and confirmed in the old way, know the difference.
I cannot understand the acceptance of the Ang-use and the persecution of the Latin Rite. In my diocese make no mistake the bishop has no use for it and it is just plain wrong.
I will never take part in this greatest of all heresies a liturgy that takes from Jewish,Protestant,and Gnostic Liturgies. It is not Catholic.

Fogny
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The words in the Tridentine Rite are not totally taken from scripture are they? I don’t think in any of the four Gospels “THE MYSTERY OF FAITH” (MYSTERIUM FIDEI) can be attributed to Jesus during the consecration of the wine. Maybe I’m wrong. Luke didn’t even use the word MANY (MULTIS) at all. Luke gives the same meaning, but in a slightly different wording than Matthew. Likewise, both the Tridentine and Pauline change the words slightly, while still givng the same meaning as the original.
 
No-what I am saying, is that if you investigate and really read into the history of the mass and the traditional latin mass- and where we are today-and the coverups which go on in the semianary up to the Bishop level of the church-I do feel that the traditionalists are more honest and less corrupt and their intentions are with saving souls and not in the business of pedophelia and looking the other way. And the more you read about Vatican II and the calls for the council , the French Revolution, the Jewish Influence on the Vatican even to this day-It makes me question the validity of what and where I am worshipping, God never changes-nor should the way we worship him- unfortunately now when I go to a Novus Ordo Mass, it seems like I have to look skyward for the crucifix, forget about the tabernacle, the church is bare with no patron saints, they have a modernistic plain table in the middle somewhere and the laity lines up like lemming with their hands outstretched like in a soup kitchen to receive Holy Communion, I have gone to the indult and masses by SSPV and SSPX and the sermons are dead on, the communion is a thing of beauty watching all of those nuns go first and kneeling by the altar rail, and the high mass, well I know after leaving there that I am not a worthy Catholic as they Traditionalists as you here call them may be arrogant, but they are damn sure Pius-when I leave the Novus Ordo mass with the gum chewers and the abuses- I cant help but feel that I am better than they are and that they dont have a clue what they just heard or witnessed.
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JKirkLVNV:
Remember in my earlier post when I said the Rad Trads were “contemptous, rude and arrogant?” See example quoted above.
Please, Bulldog, ora pro nobis, that we may become as smart as you. Do you listen to yourself!!! If you want people to attend to what you say, perhaps attend the TLM, perhaps become as devoted to it as you, why don’t you watch how you put things? As it stands, between you, RLSiscoe, and TNT, I would FLEE a TLM!!! Who wants to go somewhere where you’re going to be talked down to, and where (to my imagination, at least), everyone must be sitting around and congratulating themselves on their holiness…in Latin.
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BulldogCath:
No-what I am saying, is that if you investigate and really read into the history of the mass and the traditional latin mass- and where we are today-and the coverups which go on in the semianary up to the Bishop level of the church-I do feel that the traditionalists are more honest and less corrupt and their intentions are with saving souls and not in the business of pedophelia and looking the other way. And the more you read about Vatican II and the calls for the council , the French Revolution, the Jewish Influence on the Vatican even to this day-It makes me question the validity of what and where I am worshipping, God never changes-nor should the way we worship him- unfortunately now when I go to a Novus Ordo Mass, it seems like I have to look skyward for the crucifix, forget about the tabernacle, the church is bare with no patron saints, they have a modernistic plain table in the middle somewhere and the laity lines up like lemming with their hands outstretched like in a soup kitchen to receive Holy Communion, I have gone to the indult and masses by SSPV and SSPX and the sermons are dead on, the communion is a thing of beauty watching all of those nuns go first and kneeling by the altar rail, and the high mass, well I know after leaving there that I am not a worthy Catholic as they Traditionalists as you here call them may be arrogant, but they are damn sure Pius-when I leave the Novus Ordo mass with the gum chewers and the abuses- I cant help but feel that I am better than they are and that they dont have a clue what they just heard or witnessed.
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I guess this can’t be answered, but I wonder if the Mass was not changed would reverence still be a problem. I mean, American culture in general has become sloppy and irreverent. Are people more pious at the Latin Mass because only very pious people go to it nowadays, or is it the Mass that makes them pious. Only very conservative people go to the Latin Mass remember. If it was the only Mass available, I think you’d see your average slobs there too. Obviously back when it was the only Mass available, American culture was totally different too. Even non-Catholics wore suits all the time and had good manners. Now, both Catholics and non-Catholics dress like slobs. I don’t think the New Mass is the cause of this. Individual priests who do not address irreverence are a problem, but bad priests would be doing the Latin Mass if there was no Novus Ordo. I still fail to see how the New Mass is the cause of all social decay. I totally agree that the beauty is lacking, but I think there are bigger causes than the Liturgical form.
 
In regards to the Pagan Prayer to mother earth, I know it was taken
down because I called and complained.Make no mistake this was meant to be there. Who is in control anyway? Credit to whom .
Shame on the Bishop who has lost control of his flock.Remember that website can be seen the worldover.

This is even more troubling endorsed by the US council of bishops
on there website.Has Rome given it’s blessing ? Link below.

Will it ever end.

nccbuscc.org/comm/archives/2005/05-030.shtml
 
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Fogny:
In regards to the Pagan Prayer to mother earth, I know it was taken
down because I called and complained.Make no mistake this was meant to be there. Who is in control anyway? Credit to whom .
Shame on the Bishop who has lost control of his flock.Remember that website can be seen the worldover.

This is even more troubling endorsed by the US council of bishops
on there website.Has Rome given it’s blessing ? Link below.

Will it ever end.

nccbuscc.org/comm/archives/2005/05-030.shtml
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Fogny, yur a cool guy!
Keep it comin.
I have to get ready for a TLM this evening at an SSPX parish, as there is no TLM indult nearby on Sat.
I will see if I can integrate the blather on the site you referenced and the stogey TLM.
God Bless Fogny!
 
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TNT:
Fogny, yur a cool guy!
Keep it comin.
I have to get ready for a TLM this evening at an SSPX parish, as there is no TLM indult nearby on Sat.
I will see if I can integrate the blather on the site you referenced and the stogey TLM.
God Bless Fogny!
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Just imagine. Someone choosing to attend an SSPX service instead of the Mass (tlm or not) and bragging about it on this forum. Next we’ll hear it’s ok to attend an SSPX service in place of the Mass if the normative Mass is the only one available. LOL!

Then again, maybe this person isn’t a Catholic Christian, and perhaps he’s just coming here to inflame?

I wonder if we can get Karl Keating to outlaw such garbage on these forums?
 
Nota Bene:
Just imagine. Someone choosing to attend an SSPX service instead of the Mass (tlm or not) and bragging about it on this forum. Next we’ll hear it’s ok to attend an SSPX service in place of the Mass if the normative Mass is the only one available. LOL!
**So, it’s really not a Mass, it’s just a service…
I did not realize that.
** Then again, maybe this person isn’t a Catholic Christian, and perhaps he’s just coming here to inflame?

I wonder if we can get Karl Keating to outlaw such garbage on these forums?
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Actually, I’d really rather attend a Zen-buddhist-Christo conference, but, the nearest one is in Frisco. That’s where the real Graces lie.
So, I’m choosing the next best thing…the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass… the one the Saints died in and for, and Francis de Sales defended. Besides, it’s not for my Sun. obligation.
 
As the Catechism states, one can not be born into schism.
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This is a summary of Para. 818, correct?

So, consider the case of a child whose parents began assisting at an S.S.P.X. Mass regularly in 1982; schismatic or no? Or a priest of the SSPX who was never (strictly speaking) a Roman Catholic; schismatic or no?

If either of these cases can be judged as schism then I cannot understand the meaning of the above quote; if one or another, or both are not schism then it must be said that not everyone who is involved with the S.S.P.X. is schismatic.

The C.D.W. or C.D.F. had issued some letters around the licitness of assistance at S.S.P.X. Masses; does anyone have a link?

–Paul Goings
 
Nota Bene:
Just imagine. Someone choosing to attend an SSPX service instead of the Mass (tlm or not) and bragging about it on this forum. Next we’ll hear it’s ok to attend an SSPX service in place of the Mass if the normative Mass is the only one available. LOL!

Then again, maybe this person isn’t a Catholic Christian, and perhaps he’s just coming here to inflame?

I wonder if we can get Karl Keating to outlaw such garbage on these forums?
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More Catholic than the Pope

What a perfect title to describe you. I want to see what person told you that the SSPX is a Protestant sect? They do have validly ordained priests just like your NO priest. This is utter blasphemy to call validly ordained priests not priests. Recant of these lies.
 
Nothing about SSPX Masses beign Protestant and invalid.
Lies and halftruths will get you nowhere.
Una Voce America has received a communication from the Pontifical Ecclesia Dei Commission, concerning an article which appeared in *The Remnant *newspaper and various websites. At the request of the Commission, we are publishing it below.

Pontificia Commissio Ecclesia Dei

January 18, 2003

Greetings in the Hearts of Jesus & Mary! There have been several inquiries about our letter of 27 September 2002. In order to clarify things, Msgr. Perl has made the following response.

Oremus pro invicem.

In cordibus Jesu et Mariæ,
Msgr. Arthur B. Calkins

Msgr. Camille Perl’s response:
Code: 
Unfortunately, as you will understand, we have no way of controlling what is done with our letters by their recipients. Our letter of 27 September 2002, which was evidently cited in *The Remnant* and on various websites, was intended as a private communication dealing with the specific circumstances of the person who wrote to us. What was presented in the public forum is an abbreviated version of that letter which omits much of our pastoral counsel. Since a truncated form of this letter has now become public, we judge it appropriate to present the larger context of our response.
In a previous letter to the same correspondent we had already indicated the canonical status of the Society of St. Pius X which we will summarize briefly here.
1.) The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, but they are suspended from exercising their priestly functions. To the extent that they adhere to the schism of the late Archbishop Lefebvre, they are also excommunicated.
2.) Concretely this means that the Masses offered by these priests are valid, but illicit i.e., contrary to the law of the Church.
Points 1 and 3 in our letter of 27 September 2002 to this correspondent are accurately reported. His first question was “Can I fulfill my Sunday obligation by attending a Pius X Mass” and our response was:
“1. In the strict sense you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by attending a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of St. Pius X.”
His second question was “Is it a sin for me to attend a Pius X Mass” and we responded stating:
“2. We have already told you that we cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass and have explained the reason why. If your primary reason for attending were to manifest your desire to separate yourself from communion with the Roman Pontiff and those in communion with him, it would be a sin. If your intention is simply to participate in a Mass according to the 1962 Missal for the sake of devotion, this would not be a sin.”
His third question was: “Is it a sin for me to contribute to the Sunday collection at a Pius X Mass” to which we responded:
“3. It would seem that a modest contribution to the collection at Mass could be justified.”
Further, the correspondent took the Commission to task for not doing its job properly and we responded thus:
"This Pontifical Commission does not have the authority to coerce Bishops to provide for the celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. Nonetheless, we are frequently in contact with Bishops and do all that we can to see that this provision is made. However, this provision also depends on the number of people who desire the ‘traditional’ Mass, their motives and the availability of priests who can celebrate it.
“You also state in your letter that the Holy Father has given you a ‘right’ to the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. This is not correct. It is true that he has asked his brother Bishops to be generous in providing for the celebration of this Mass, but he has not stated that it is a ‘right’. Presently it constitutes an exception to the Church’s law and may be granted when the local Bishop judges it to be a valid pastoral service and when he has the priests who are available to celebrate it. Every Catholic has a right to the sacraments (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 843), but he does not have a right to them according to the rite of his choice.”
We hope that this puts in a clearer light the letter about which you asked us.
With prayerful best wishes for this New Year of Our Lord 2003, I remain
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rev. Msgr. Camille Perl, Secretary
 
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Genesis315:
The words in the Tridentine Rite are not totally taken from scripture are they? I don’t think in any of the four Gospels “THE MYSTERY OF FAITH” (MYSTERIUM FIDEI) can be attributed to Jesus during the consecration of the wine. Maybe I’m wrong. Luke didn’t even use the word MANY (MULTIS) at all. Luke gives the same meaning, but in a slightly different wording than Matthew. Likewise, both the Tridentine and Pauline change the words slightly, while still givng the same meaning as the original.
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Hi,
Here is a link for you on the History of the Roman Rite Mass.
I use a Fr. Lasance Daily Missal for my everyday prayerbook.
Get your self a old missal it is a treasure.

catholictradition.org/mass-history.htm

Fogny
 
katolik said:
More Catholic than the Pope

What a perfect title to describe you. I want to see what person told you that the SSPX is a Protestant sect? They do have validly ordained priests just like your NO priest. This is utter blasphemy to call validly ordained priests not priests. Recant of these lies.
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The SSPX is a cancer to the Catholic Church:

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CEDSSPX2.HTM

Consider leaving that schismatic (at least) group and coming Home to the Catholic Church.
 
Nota Bene:
The SSPX is a cancer to the Catholic Church:

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CEDSSPX2.HTM

Consider leaving that schismatic (at least) group and coming Home to the Catholic Church.
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Unfortunetly we have a real Cancer in the Church, Bishops who have lost the faith (see the above link to the USCB above)
I can just see the Future

Anglo-Use
Zen-Use
Koran-Use
Torah-Use

Let’s all play a game “Name that mass” Under the disguise to confuse and lead the faithful away from the true Church of Christ.
I do not like the fact that SSPX has been excomunicated.
But Catholics have to stand up to this "One world church nonsense as it is leading the sheep to the wolves.

Fogny
 
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TNT:
  1. I came to the RCC via an Anglican Use Parish in Arlington, TX. Without doubt the most VATII - intended Mass in the FT Worth diocese.
  2. Here’s a suggestion:
    Remove your imagination and replace it with some facts.
    By
    Taking the time out to go to a TLM in Las Vegas
    Our Lady of Victory
    ******1575 E. Windmill Ln. Las Vegas, NV 89123
    FATHER PETER OTTO, USAF Chaplain, Ret.
    ***Sunday Mass, 10 a.m. and 12 p.m.; ***
    ******Confessions heard before Mass
    Rosary before Mass.
    You need not attend as a Sun. obligation, go to an NOM Sat eve. or late/early Sun.
    This is an SSPX parish, as there is no indult TLM permitted for Las Vegas by the bishop. I surmise do to the completely understandable mis-reading by the bishop of “generous application” of Ecclesia Dei. (No episcopal arrogance, disobedience to intent, or meaness possible?)
    (They do have one in the Reno Diocese.)
    After you attend, meet the people after Mass as they have a informal gathering after Mass. Interview some of them, then come back here and report your findings. These will be the “worst of the Trads”. The priest may delay getting to the gathering because of confessions, but he’ll be accessible for you to interview.
    Then you speak from authority of experience, instead of “my imagination”.
    I believe this would be a great service of sacrifice to all of us here, and therefore a blessing.
    How about it? What a great post that would be!
    As they say in Vegas “put your money where your mouth is.”
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No, we’ve been asked by our Bishop, Joseph Pepe, not to support it in any way, by attending or by giving money. NOW, when I visit my family in Dallas, I might attend the Indult that’s held at the Carmelite chapel, but that depends on cirucumstance. I might go to one in CA this summer, but not to SSPX, unless I had to go to a funeral. I don’t go to Baptist churches, or any other for that matter, unless it’s a wedding or a funeral. I’m basing my judgement thus far on postings from the advocates of the SSPX Mass on these threads, fair, since we’re told :by their fruit you shall know them."
 
Exporter said:
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When posting we need to be succinct and distict. Why? So others will understand us. In my opinion what BulldogCatholic posted was an attempt to say what he meant and mean what he said in a succinct manner. It seems that you, JKirk, have a disagreement with Bulldog. Go back and reread what he said.

What I am becoming tired of are the almost daily jabs at anyone who prefers TLM. There is developing a new set of terms that are used to put down ordinary old-fashioned traditional Roman Catholics. As the man in L.A. said when beated by police, “Can’t we just all get along?”
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And others are equally tired of the jabs at the Mass of Paul VI.
 
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