Arrogance & Hypocrisy of "Traditionalists"

[kwitz]

Exporter:

As for TLM. Back in the 1950s and 60s when every Church said Mass in Latin the attendance wes about 70 to 75 percent. Since Vatican II and the advent of the English Mass, attendance now has dropped to between 35 to 40 percent. So if attendance dropped 30% something has happened. What happened?

I wince every time I see these stats (which I accept as valid) that attendance at Mass has declined dramatically since the introduction of the current Mass. No where has anyone shown a cause and effect relationship. I could argue that it is my birth that caused the decline. After all, it is a fact that after I arrived in this world, people stopped attending Mass regularly. I take full blame for the problem.

This is what makes the study of history so different from science. If I want to show a causal relationship between adding a new plant food and growth of that plant I can set up a controlled experiment and reasonably “prove” that the plant food works or not. However, I don’t get to “reset” the world prior to Vatican II and see what the year 2005 would be like if the current Mass had never been implemented. For all we know, had the TLM remained the norm, Mass attendance might have fallen further to 20%. I can make that assertion and no one can “prove” that I’m wrong; conversely, I can’t prove anyone else wrong when they assert that the changes caused the decline.

Kris

 

[Genesis315]

Exporter:

Genesis315,
I enjoyed reading your post to Bulldog. It made a few thoughts bubble up. I have not read that Bulldog has left the Church and I have read quite a few of his posts.

Now as to why people leave the Church. The number one reason for leaving the Church is poor or absent Catechesis. They were Baptised and that was it, no instruction was given. Lots of little kids are Baptised and sometime before they are 12 their parents stop taking them to Church so they drift away. Some leave after ther they were married to a nonCatholic - I know one of those. Some drift away because of various things the priest did or said. With respect to the priest, a lax priest, a priest who will not strongly teach what the Church says will loose not only the respect of his flock, but he will loose numbers attending Mass. People like to be told the truth!

As for TLM. Back in the 1950s and 60s when every Church said Mass in Latin the attendance wes about 70 to 75 percent. Since Vatican II and the advent of the English Mass, attendance now has dropped to between 35 to 40 percent. So if attendance dropped 30% something has happened. What happened?

Sorry, i should not have said Bulldog left the Church. He attends Massa an SSPX chapel. SO ehw ould be counted, I think, in the attendance drop figures since it is technically not a Mass of the Catholic Church.

 

[Genesis315]

Exporter:

Genesis315,
I enjoyed reading your post to Bulldog. It made a few thoughts bubble up. I have not read that Bulldog has left the Church and I have read quite a few of his posts.

Now as to why people leave the Church. The number one reason for leaving the Church is poor or absent Catechesis. They were Baptised and that was it, no instruction was given. Lots of little kids are Baptised and sometime before they are 12 their parents stop taking them to Church so they drift away. Some leave after ther they were married to a nonCatholic - I know one of those. Some drift away because of various things the priest did or said. With respect to the priest, a lax priest, a priest who will not strongly teach what the Church says will loose not only the respect of his flock, but he will loose numbers attending Mass. People like to be told the truth!

As for TLM. Back in the 1950s and 60s when every Church said Mass in Latin the attendance wes about 70 to 75 percent. Since Vatican II and the advent of the English Mass, attendance now has dropped to between 35 to 40 percent. So if attendance dropped 30% something has happened. What happened?

Sorry, i should not have said Bulldog left the Church. He attends Mass at an SSPX chapel. SO ehw ould be counted, I think, in the attendance drop figures since it is technically not a Mass of the Catholic Church.

 

[Genesis315]

Exporter:

Genesis315,
I enjoyed reading your post to Bulldog. It made a few thoughts bubble up. I have not read that Bulldog has left the Church and I have read quite a few of his posts.

Now as to why people leave the Church. The number one reason for leaving the Church is poor or absent Catechesis. They were Baptised and that was it, no instruction was given. Lots of little kids are Baptised and sometime before they are 12 their parents stop taking them to Church so they drift away. Some leave after ther they were married to a nonCatholic - I know one of those. Some drift away because of various things the priest did or said. With respect to the priest, a lax priest, a priest who will not strongly teach what the Church says will loose not only the respect of his flock, but he will loose numbers attending Mass. People like to be told the truth!

As for TLM. Back in the 1950s and 60s when every Church said Mass in Latin the attendance wes about 70 to 75 percent. Since Vatican II and the advent of the English Mass, attendance now has dropped to between 35 to 40 percent. So if attendance dropped 30% something has happened. What happened?

Sorry, i should not have said Bulldog left the Church. He attends Mass at an SSPX chapel. SO he would be counted, I think, in the attendance drop figures since it is technically not a Mass of the Catholic Church.

 

[BulldogCath]

No

I have not left the church as we love it to much, as the only way we can make it more orthodox is to be involved, I do dabble and go to some schismatic masses with my uncles and aunts, I guess I am a nomad but love my church.

I am sure though that many on the other side of the debate would wish I would go away to the SSPX and SSPV-but I am in it till it goes over the edge- the day I see a lay person giving the homily-I am gone!

Exporter:

Genesis315,
I enjoyed reading your post to Bulldog. It made a few thoughts bubble up. I have not read that Bulldog has left the Church and I have read quite a few of his posts.

Now as to why people leave the Church. The number one reason for leaving the Church is poor or absent Catechesis. They were Baptised and that was it, no instruction was given. Lots of little kids are Baptised and sometime before they are 12 their parents stop taking them to Church so they drift away. Some leave after ther they were married to a nonCatholic - I know one of those. Some drift away because of various things the priest did or said. With respect to the priest, a lax priest, a priest who will not strongly teach what the Church says will loose not only the respect of his flock, but he will loose numbers attending Mass. People like to be told the truth!

As for TLM. Back in the 1950s and 60s when every Church said Mass in Latin the attendance wes about 70 to 75 percent. Since Vatican II and the advent of the English Mass, attendance now has dropped to between 35 to 40 percent. So if attendance dropped 30% something has happened. What happened?

 

[BulldogCath]

No

I have gone to SSPX chapels on occassions, but I am have not and will not leave my church-I attend the Indult first-SSPV or SSPX masses second-and also go about 20% of the time to the Novus Ordo. I dont hate the NO mass- I like some parts of it- I like when the priest asks for people to pray for someone-but that also happens as the TLM when someone is sick or dies as we pray for the repose of the soul-sometimes I get up late and we cant get the family together fast enough and dressed and we go to the NO mass as I dont wear a suit there, I am on the fence and love all-my mother goes to the NO mass as she wont drive to the indult or to SSPV or SSPX though she feels both masses are more reverent-she has made friends at her local parish and wont make the 20 mile journey-and I obviously love my mother and feel she is doing the right thing

Genesis315:

Sorry, i should not have said Bulldog left the Church. He attends Massa an SSPX chapel. SO ehw ould be counted, I think, in the attendance drop figures since it is technically not a Mass of the Catholic Church.

 

[Nota_Bene]

BulldogCath:

No

I have not left the church as we love it to much, as the only way we can make it more orthodox is to be involved, I do dabble and go to some schismatic masses with my uncles and aunts, I guess I am a nomad but love my church.

I am sure though that many on the other side of the debate would wish I would go away to the SSPX and SSPV-but I am in it till it goes over the edge- the day I see a lay person giving the homily-I am gone!

So what you are saying is the day you see a certain liturgical abuse your are going to leave the very Church created by Jesus Christ? For what? The SSPX religion?

If you would turn your back on Jesus’ Church due to a liturgical abuse, you have some very grave problems that need to be addressed for your own good…

 

[BulldogCath]

No Nota

I am not leaving-kind of a joke-but we all must put our foot down and acknowledge that the Priest is a special being-dedicting his life to Christ and the church and we are not supposed to do his job-like I am a professional Engineer who would feel upset if a Priest wanted to do my job, I had studied some theology but never followed though on my desire to one day serve God-but the abuses have to stop and we have to put restraints on those liberals who want to take over the church and make the priesthood nothing more than a sideshow. They along with all religious-the Deacons, Brothers, sisters-have my utmost respect-those in good standing of course- as they have done something I and many could not follow through on.

After mass on Sunday we get to go home to our families and do our thing-they go home to the rectory or whatever in solice
Nota Bene:

So what you are saying is the day you see a certain liturgical abuse your are going to leave the very Church created by Jesus Christ? For what? The SSPX religion?

If you would turn your back on Jesus’ Church due to a liturgical abuse, you have some very grave problems that need to be addressed for your own good…

 

[Nota_Bene]

BulldogCath:

No Nota

I am not leaving-kind of a joke-but we all must put our foot down and acknowledge that the Priest is a special being-dedicting his life to Christ and the church and we are not supposed to do his job-like I am a professional Engineer who would feel upset if a Priest wanted to do my job, I had studied some theology but never followed though on my desire to one day serve God-but the abuses have to stop and we have to put restraints on those liberals who want to take over the church and make the priesthood nothing more than a sideshow. They along with all religious-the Deacons, Brothers, sisters-have my utmost respect-those in good standing of course- as they have done something I and many could not follow through on.

After mass on Sunday we get to go home to our families and do our thing-they go home to the rectory or whatever in solice

I’m really not sure what you are even getting at.

But gee whiz, I’m a registered professional engineer with the State of California and I wouldn’t mind a priest doing my job – if he were qualified and registered of course. Thankfully, being a priest is not a profession, it’s a calling from God.

I personally enjoy inviting priests over for Sunday dinner – and they seem to enjoy themselves and there isn’t a thing wrong with that. Quite positive, actually.

 

[Nota_Bene]

BulldogCath:

No Nota

I am not leaving-kind of a joke-but we all must put our foot down and acknowledge that the Priest is a special being-dedicting his life to Christ and the church and we are not supposed to do his job-like I am a professional Engineer who would feel upset if a Priest wanted to do my job, I had studied some theology but never followed though on my desire to one day serve God-but the abuses have to stop and we have to put restraints on those liberals who want to take over the church and make the priesthood nothing more than a sideshow. They along with all religious-the Deacons, Brothers, sisters-have my utmost respect-those in good standing of course- as they have done something I and many could not follow through on.

After mass on Sunday we get to go home to our families and do our thing-they go home to the rectory or whatever in solice

I’m not sure what you really mean with your last posting. Keep in mind that being a priest is not a profession, but a calling from God…

I’m very surprised to hear you’re an engineer. I’m a registered professional engineer in the State of California and I wouldn’t expect the comments you post from another engineer.

Most engineers are very logical and analytical – we are good at collecting and analyzing data and making sound projections from the facts at hand…

(BTW, I wouldn’t mind a priest doing my job if he was competant and registered, and I think everytone should invite their pastor home for Sunday dinner…)

 

[Exporter]

Quote from Bulldog:“I am not leaving-kind of a joke-but we all must put our foot down and acknowledge that the Priest is a special being-dedicting his life to Christ and the church and we are not supposed to do his job-like I am a professional Engineer who would feel upset if a Priest wanted to do my job,”

---

Communication is difficult. May I attempt to clearify something. Nota questions Bulldog’s statement that he, Bulldog, would be concerned if a Priest tried to do the job of some engineer.

Nota. When you take one of your family to see a physician, dont you want to know if that man has the credentials of a physician? If you take your car to a mechanic you want to know the man is really a mechanic don’t you?

Whenyou go to Mass you want the celebrant to be a real-live Priest with all the credentials a Priest needs, dont you?

Bulldog didn’t say the hypothetcal Priest was an engineer. As I read him, he was saying the Priest was NOT an engineer. So for a men trained into the Priesthood with no training in engineering would be wrong. On the other hand it would be wrong for Bulldog to go up to the altar and try to say Mass.

 

[TNT]

kwitz:

I wince every time I see these stats (which I accept as valid) that attendance at Mass has declined dramatically since the introduction of the current Mass. No where has anyone shown a cause and effect relationship. I could argue that it is my birth that caused the decline. After all, it is a fact that after I arrived in this world, people stopped attending Mass regularly. I take full blame for the problem.

…I can make that assertion and no one can “prove” that I’m wrong; conversely, I can’t prove anyone else wrong when they assert that the changes caused the decline.
Kris

From Prevoius Post of Stats:

Research conducted by Fordham University’s Dr. James Lothian compared statistics similar to the foregoing with equivalent data** relevant to Protestantism, finding that no equivalent decline has occurred in Protestant faith communities over the same time period**

** We do have some certainties:**

1. Prot sects of the fundamentalist / Evangelical variety not only remained stable, but grew marginally. Much of their grow were poorly catechised Catholics leaving the VATII church, as mentioned by others on this thread.
2. The attendance at their theological seminaries grew.
3. The changes in the Church via VATII / Consilium DID NOT cause any improvement relative to its prior state or the above prot. sects.
4. The VATII church stats declined more than the “mainstream” prot sects by a substantial margin in some cases such as presbyterian and high Anglican (traditional liturgy version).

If I were a disinterested detective, I’d sure give my suspicions to the radical changes in the VATII church lest I be blamed for dereliction.
Of course all the social upheavals of the 60-70’s had their effect, but not so as to nearly wipe out the Church’s primary institutions in western civilization.
It was the worst time in history to claim as JohnXXIII did, that the prophets of doom were all wrong…including all his wise predecessors. and even the Fatima Lady sent by God Himself. When actually, we were on the verge of an unprecidented surge in immorality, naturalism, and materialism. How could he have got it so wrong? And then based a Council on his presumption?
The Church needed to be re-armed for what was on the horizon, not dispose of all her weapons toward sanctity, piety, catechesis, parochial schools etc.
If I were to use an “icon” representing the disarming of the Church, disposing of the Prayer to St Michael would be it.
One of the strongest effects on me when I first attended the TLM was that prayer, said by all, including the children, by memory.
The beast is now in her house, thanks to the disarmament of VATII, and it will literally “play hell” before it departs.
IMHO, of course.
BTW:
What part of VATII needs to be properly / fully implemented yet? One or 2 examples will suffice.
I want to contribute if I know what it is that needs implemented as intended.

 

[BulldogCath]

Well Nota , I am a registered PE here in the State of NY-and I would not expect the posts that you put up either. I have been published about 25 times in various Engineering Publications and the Director of Operations of one of the largest Real Estate Companies in the world. So-enough about me.

An engineer-as you can attest-has to perform calculations (in my earlier days-have others doing that for me now)-and then make a decision based on these facts. Many of the calculations performed are based on old tried and true formulas-the first law of Thermodynamics, Conservation of Mass and Energy, Newtons Laws of Physics, etc-and apply them to all local, state and federal codes and your AHJ (Authority Having Jurdisdiction). As an engineer-we are always looking for new more efficient and effective products-with most based on the same tried and true principals of the past. Heat transfer is Heat Transfer-maybe a better vehicle to do the job-but always the same principals and theories. If I see a code that comes out that has political overtones to it, and is not best for the Residential and Commercial Ownerships and tenants that we are sworn to protect-the ASME, the NSPE, REBNY or BOMA or whatever organization we belong to will be sure to protest and get this law amended-as we have done here in NY with new Laws such as LL26 as it pertains to the lessons learned after 9/11.

I practice my faith the same way-I look at all the past teachings and how they sustained life for centuries or shall I say 2 millennium, producing Saints and a tradition so rich that it is the envy of the world. Then along comes a council-just like in engineering with suspect characters (Masons, Protestants, etc) who most likely have a political agenda to them and not the best interest of the faithful involved-and they are now reinventing everything that we have had before-and telling us that if hold onto the past teachings-you are incorrect and can fall into schism. The educated and analytical man that I am says-how can that be-these “Engineering Laws” are the basis of everything that our society has been built upon-it may be getting packaged a bit different now (glass spandral glass buildings going up today instead of brick, granite and limestone for energy and cost concerns-for example, back to engineering analogy)-but the theories and backbone is still the same and has been for the past hundreds of years. Brick and mortar will always be brick and mortar.

The Vatican II church is running away from her past-not even acknowledging her past-banning a traditional latin Mass for almost 20 years-and now allowing it only in a limited way? Pushing forth new agendas, ecumenism- a new translation of the bible to support these agendas, 1000 saints in 25 years in a desparate plea to get some “Modern” saints on the books, with someone like John XXIII a candidate, and I can go on and on and so can most. Then you analyze the facts -drop in attendance, falling away from the faith, liturgical abuses, sexual abuse scandals, websites and magazines devoted specifically to track the Novus Ordo and to make a mockery of it, the list goes on and on. This leads me to believe there was a motive behind all of the changes which happened very very fast and with little explanations.I have read traditional literature which has many theories which I am not sure about and would hate to believe, but something has gone terribly wrong and I cant help but feel the council had some evil or personally malice behind it by some very influental people at the time-who go the ear of a naive Pope who wanted to make a name for himself as he was Old at the time he was elected.

If the church was a business-the CEO would have been fired 20 years ago-and just like Coke when they came out with the “New Coke” that failed miserably-they went back to the “Old Coke” as it what people loved from the turn of the century when Coke a cola was invented (without the cocaine of course).

It is time to bring back the tried and true-with some variations and lets get back to the business of saving souls and not trying to be like the Moslems and Hindus-we are better because we have Jesus Christ and they Dont!
Nota Bene:

I’m not sure what you really mean with your last posting. Keep in mind that being a priest is not a profession, but a calling from God…

I’m very surprised to hear you’re an engineer. I’m a registered professional engineer in the State of California and I wouldn’t expect the comments you post from another engineer.

Most engineers are very logical and analytical – we are good at collecting and analyzing data and making sound projections from the facts at hand…

(BTW, I wouldn’t mind a priest doing my job if he was competant and registered, and I think everytone should invite their pastor home for Sunday dinner…)

 

[BulldogCath]

Thank you Exporter-I thought I had a clear post-but sometimes, myself included we read them fast.

Leave the saving of souls and adminstering of sacrments to the person who has the training and dedication. After mass we get to go hom to our families, a ball game, have “relations” with our spouses-the Priest goes on to the next mass, or maybe a nursing home to pray the Rosary with the old folks,while you are watching the superbowl. I know because I have traveled with the Priest-and have volunteered to drive them to other states where there is such a desire to have the Traditional Latin Mass-but there are not enough Priests who even know Latin anymore!

So they have to commute from state to state to offer it. Sometimes the Bishop wont allow it, like in some dioceses in Pennsylvania, but the people write in and we have in the past rented out churches and halls and performed the TLM Mass there for them with hundreds showing up-this is done once a month and they cry for more, but we can only do so much.

**I dont call that arrogance-the Priest is a special being-and the laity would do best to sit down back in the pews-read, reflect, pray, and if you really really want to ASSIST-how about assisting AFTER MASS-and go to the Nursing Home and pray the Rosary-or go to that ABORTION CLINIC and pray the rosary outside to stop this horrible killing. **

It is the Novus Ordo Laity who are arrogant-they feel that that by reading or becoming some “minister” (Protestant name please note) that they are doing something great… Well you are not, sorry-go out with a group, and one of the sisters or priests or by yourselves as we do, as I and 25 other men are members of the Holy Name Society and pray the Rosary outside the abortion clinic, If you are able to get one woman to turn back around and not have that abortion-you have saved a life that would give you more grace than all of that so called participation you think you are doing

Exporter:

Quote from Bulldog:“I am not leaving-kind of a joke-but we all must put our foot down and acknowledge that the Priest is a special being-dedicting his life to Christ and the church and we are not supposed to do his job-like I am a professional Engineer who would feel upset if a Priest wanted to do my job,”

---

Communication is difficult. May I attempt to clearify something. Nota questions Bulldog’s statement that he, Bulldog, would be concerned if a Priest tried to do the job of some engineer.

Nota. When you take one of your family to see a physician, dont you want to know if that man has the credentials of a physician? If you take your car to a mechanic you want to know the man is really a mechanic don’t you?

Whenyou go to Mass you want the celebrant to be a real-live Priest with all the credentials a Priest needs, dont you?

Bulldog didn’t say the hypothetcal Priest was an engineer. As I read him, he was saying the Priest was NOT an engineer. So for a men trained into the Priesthood with no training in engineering would be wrong. On the other hand it would be wrong for Bulldog to go up to the altar and try to say Mass.

 

[pnewton]

BulldogCath:

It is the Novus Ordo Laity who are arrogant-they feel that that by reading or becoming some “minister” (Protestant name please note) that they are doing something great… Well you are not

It is not necessary to be uncharitable towards all the laity. There are many humble and saintly lay people that do not fit this stereotype. I do, however, appreciate the way that you honored our priest your post. I know that I myself can not hold a candle (no pun intended) to my priest when it comes of giving himself daily to the Church and the needy.

 

[Teresita]

katolik:

Please don’t tell me it is my fault that there are empty seminaries,closed churches, and decrepit sacral archetecture on me. Those 100 people at the Indult Mass truly are Masons and Jews set out on destroying the Church, ya sure!

Ah yes. I wondered when those evil Jews would appear in someone’s mail.

As someone who has distinct leanings towards rad-tradiness, I’ve been protected from falling over into it by the ugly anti-Semitism which has been growing among SSPX-types and other radtrads during the last few years. (I’m Jewish by birth and upbringing, BTW.) I think, historically, it’s happened because Msgr Lefebvre was French, and French Catholics always had a hatred of Masons and Jews which seems to have stemmed from the Revolutionary period. (To be fair, the dislike was returned in spades by Masons and - especially - secularised Jews.) Some of Lefebvre’s non-French followers initially tried to restrain his more anti-Semitic remarks, but it looks to me as though anti-Semitism has become ingrained in most of the ultra-traditionalist groups.

Sigh.

Oh, and while we’re on the subject (sort of), the offertory prayer (Blessed art thou…) not exactly from the Passover Ritual, the Hagadah - at least, the significant bits aren’t. The opening is certainly modelled on a Beruch (a prayer of blessing): they almost all start Baruch Attah Adonai Eloheinu melech ha-olam’ ('Blessed art Thou, Lord God, King of the universe). The opening prayer of the Hagadah runs: *Baruch Attah Adonai Eloheinu melech ha-olam, asher kidshanu b’mitzvotav, v’tzivanu l’hadlik ner shel yom tov *(Blessed art Thou, Lord God, King of the Universe, who has sanctified our lives through Thy commandments and commanded us to kindle the lights of the festival.) And there are certainly prayers of blessing the matzos and the wine (‘fruit of the earth’ and ‘fruit of the vine’). But the ‘human hands have made’ bit isn’t there at all - nor should it be, since the prayer is thanking God for HIs gifts, not saying how fantastic us men (sorry, feminists - us human persons) are.

Interestingly, the Jewish site from which I copied and pasted the transliteration of the Hebrew (you’ll find it at ) has some ‘in depth’ considerations of the Seder and the Hagadah. Does this sound familiar?

IN DEPTH The blessing praises God for creating the “fruit of the vine.” We recite the blessing, not over the whole grape, but over wine --squeezed, fermented through human skill. So too the motzi blessing is recited, not over sheaves of wheat or barley but over bread, leavened or unleavened, ground and kneaded and prepared by human hands. The blessing is over the product cultivated through human and divine cooperation: The givenness of sun, seed and soil transformed by wisdom and purpose to sustain the body and rejoice the soul.

The trend towards humanism and the emphasis on the greatness of man rather than adoration of and obedience towards God is not just a Catholic or Protestant phenomenon.

Sue

 

[CatholicforBush]

Nota Bene:

It’s amazing to see the arrogance and hypocrisy of self-described “traditionalists” on these threads. Many of them rail-away at liturgical irregularities and abuses – often rightly so. Yet at the same time they concoct and support other irregularities and abuses because they fit their prideful notion of what is “better”, versus what the Church actually directs.

No wonder the celebration of the Mass is in such disarray in so many locations. The “traditionalists” whine about those they label as “liberals” or “modernists” while they continue with their own brand of irregularities and abuses. The resulting hypocrisy makes them effete and this is certainly not lost on the “liberals” or “modernists.” All it really does is empower them.

One thing is clear. To be a “traditionalist” is certainly no guarantee that one is an orthodox Catholic Christian. Traditionalists need to come to grips with how similar they are to those they label as “liberals” or “modernists” – particularly when it comes to the negative impact they have on the Church, and more specifically, the Mass.

Here are two documents that I suggest you read about this topic, written by Pope John Paul the II Ecclesia Dei. The St. Anthony of Padua Chapter

I suppose it is a matter of if you accept our Pope or not. I do.

 

[CatholicforBush]

BulldogCath:

So you are saying that in the entire history of the church-she has never had a time when new inovations were going on-like the invention of electricity, the printing press, machines, the guilded age-and the church always always prospered even through those diffiicult times because it had Morals, teachings, tradition, and Guts, and people respected it, even those that hated it, respected it, sort of like the NY Yankees. But now-we decided that we are no longer the one true faith, we no longer possess all of the answers, regular street people with a few weeks of training should be on the same level as a PRIEST and actually be permitted to hand out the Body of Our Lord.

So because we have this innovation called TV-we needed to change the mass and become more modern? No way, we should not have changed for no one-once people saw that with push and influence and corruption from within they could actually get the Holy Roman Catholic Church to change its MASS to please them-the gates were opened wide. For that matter TV was around in the 50’s, when the church in America was at it’s Zenith.

Absurd? Well maybe to you. And you cant compare what you see in the Novus Ordo to what goes on in a Traditional Chapel - if the church would get the right priests again-the Orthodox ones and convert back to its roots-all will be well.

Please also consider this. Children embrace their faith more when they understand what is going on at Mass. Children have a difficult time learning Latin, so if you want children to become involved in Mass from a very early age, you must speak their language.

 

[Teresita]

Sorry - didn’t post the URL for the site from which I ‘lifted’ the Hagadah material - it’s vbs.org/religious/hagadah/hagadah1.htm

 

[Genesis315]

I have a quick question, maybe someone on this thread can help me out. Was there some documents after Vatican II that made additional changes to he Mass? There are certain things (like the priest facing the congregation) that aren’t mentioned at all. I don’t have the copy of the current missal so maybe it says there. When was this instituted?

Is there an old document or missal that even says the priest has to face a certain way at all or was it just tradition that he faced the same way as the congregation?