Arrogance & Hypocrisy of "Traditionalists"

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Ok here goes.
If by Traditionalist it means
-do not believe in atrificial birth cintrol
-do not believe in abortion
-do not believe in euthanasia
-do not believe in women priests
-do not believe in married priests
-do not believe in divorce (and remarriage).
-do not believe in inclusive language
-do not think lay people should say homilies
-do not believe children should make 1st communion before 1st confession
-would prefer those in religious life to wear a habit
-would prefer to recieve communion kneeling
-would prefer communion not in the hand
-would prefer not to have bongos at Mass
-would prefer only male alter servers
than yes I am

But if by traditionlist you mean
-would prefer the TLM
-believes communion can only be recieved on the tongue
-believes one should only recieve communion on ones knees
-believe the Mass should only be in latin
-believe the NO mass to be invalid
-believes those who attend the TLM are “better” Catholics

I attend a parish where the NO is done beautifully and reverantly. There is a considerable amount of latin sprinkled in. We have kneelers to recieve communion. There are only male alter servers (and alot of them.) There is no inclusive language added. Only a priest or deacon says the homliy. The tabernacle is behind the alter where it should be. 95% of people genuflect before entering their pew. It isn’t unusual to see a family with 6 or more children. Confession is offered before every Mass. There are at least 3 Masses available every day. We don’t hold hands during the Our Father. Homilies include church teaching, address abortion, birthcontrol, gay marriage, confession, vocations to the priesthood ect. We have several young men that go off to seminary every year. Ya’ll get the point.

Anyway I have been considerably turned off by the TLM since joining the forum simply because of the attitude of many (not all) of those who attend the TLM and attack the NO with great fervor. Whether they mean to or not they portray a very elitest attitude. I actually had a poster here tell me he had no doubt that I would end up attending the TLM like him despite the fact that the NO is celebrated as it should be at my parish.

Yes I am well aware of abuses in NO. I used to belong to a parish that had plenty of them. What I have said over and over again it is not the NO that is the problem, it is the lack of understanding and the lack of education of laity about these things that are abuses. Things that are not permitted in the NO.

The way some people talk about the TLM I would feel under a microscope while attending. Like they would be watching and waiting for me to do something wrong.

For those that know mw a little better here -yes I’m well aware our (wonderful, orthodox) priest does the TLM indult at another local parish. I still perfer the Mass in English. I prefer the priest’s face to his back.

So then am I a traditionalist or not?
 
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CatholicforBush:
Please also consider this. Children embrace their faith more when they understand what is going on at Mass. Children have a difficult time learning Latin, so if you want children to become involved in Mass from a very early age, you must speak their language.
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Does not compute.
  1. What about all the children who attended the TLM in the old days and ended up as priests, religious or devout laymen and women? A lot more than now.
  2. Whenever I’ve taken a child to the TLM (a child who hasn’t experienced it before), they’ve been transfixed for much of the time; alas, I haven’t had that situation with the little wrigglers at the NO!
  3. My middle (and only Catholic) son, who’s not keen on Latin per se, will, given the choice, go to the NO Latin Mass which our parish has at 11 am each Sunday, rather than the other, vernacular Masses. He has a particular loathing for the 5.00 Mass between March and June, where the children in the First Holy Communion classes are the centre of interest: our priest uses the 3rd Eucharistic Prayer for Children (if you don’t know it, find it and shudder), and they’re invited up to stand round the altar during the Consecration, staying there, fidgeting and whispering, until the Peace. You couldn’t get more involved than that, but believe me, it doesn’t keep the children going to Mass once they’re old enough to choose.
Sue
 
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Teresita:
Does not compute.
  1. What about all the children who attended the TLM in the old days and ended up as priests, religious or devout laymen and women? A lot more than now.
  2. Whenever I’ve taken a child to the TLM (a child who hasn’t experienced it before), they’ve been transfixed for much of the time; alas, I haven’t had that situation with the little wrigglers at the NO!
  3. My middle (and only Catholic) son, who’s not keen on Latin per se, will, given the choice, go to the NO Latin Mass which our parish has at 11 am each Sunday, rather than the other, vernacular Masses. He has a particular loathing for the 5.00 Mass between March and June, where the children in the First Holy Communion classes are the centre of interest: our priest uses the 3rd Eucharistic Prayer for Children (if you don’t know it, find it and shudder), and they’re invited up to stand round the altar during the Consecration, staying there, fidgeting and whispering, until the Peace. You couldn’t get more involved than that, but believe me, it doesn’t keep the children going to Mass once they’re old enough to choose.
Sue
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1.) So? A GREAT many things are different from years ago. You simply don’t have the information to suggest the “tlm” is a prime reason for a drop in vocations.

2.) I have. Next?

3.) And?
 
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CatholicforBush:
Please also consider this. Children embrace their faith more when they understand what is going on at Mass**. Children have a difficult time learning Latin**, so if you want children to become involved in Mass from a very early age, you must speak their language.
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The younger child has an easier time learnig any new language. That is just the result of many studies.
I can’t begin to count the many children that I have been with at meal time who recite grace (prayers) before and after meals…IN LATIN.
You learn a language, like any skill by frequent use.
I have a niece (17) who is a member of the Churches-of-Christ. She attends a public H school. Her school choir was invited to a state school concert in San Antonio. 2/3’s of their performance was IN LATIN…from Classical Catholic Hymns! She loved it, and so did the audience.
She now has a better appreciation of the Catholic Church…even started wearing a crucufix. If you know the “Churches-of-Christ” you’d know what a challenge/ blessing this is for her.

Please don’t use this as an excuse for vernacular in sacred worship…ever.
 
becoming some “minister” (Protestant name please note)
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There is simply nothing more damaging to the traditionalist cause than the ignorance of some “traditionalists!”

I have in front of me a copy of the* Missale Romanum* published in 1924. In the* Ordo Missae,* at the very beginning of the prayers at the foot of the altar, after the priest says “Introibo ad altare Dei,” the missal directs “Ministri respondent:–” “The** Ministers** [referring to either the deacon and subdeacon, or to the server] respond:”

So, if “minister” is a protestant name,** your complaint is with Pope S. Pius V** and his “protestant” missal!

Honestly!

–Paul
 
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pgoings:
There is simply nothing more damaging to the traditionalist cause than the ignorance of some “traditionalists!”

I have in front of me a copy of the* Missale Romanum* published in 1924. In the* Ordo Missae,* at the very beginning of the prayers at the foot of the altar, after the priest says “Introibo ad altare Dei,” the missal directs “Ministri respondent:–” “The** Ministers** [referring to either the deacon and subdeacon, or to the server**] respond:”

So, if “minister” is a protestant name,** your complaint is with Pope S. Pius V** and his “protestant” missal!

Honestly!

–Paul Honestly?? Is it not obvious that he is refering to a “priest” being called a “minister” ?
The “priest” is not being called a “minister” in your example, but a person of lesser stature than the one who offers Sacrfice.
He is NOT criticising the word “minister” per se.
Honestly !
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Nota Bene said:
1.) So? A GREAT many things are different from years ago. You simply don’t have the information to suggest the “tlm” is a prime reason for a drop in vocations.

2.) I have. Next?

3.) And?
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I suggest that you argue, rather than sneer.
  1. You have (either consciously or unconsciously) failed to understand my point. I didn’t suggest that the NOM (I think you’ve typed too fast above) is a prime reason for a drop in vocations. You’re right in saying that I don’t have that information: I’m aware that post hoc does not equal propter hoc (useful language, Latin:yup: ). What I was doing was countering the implied assumption that if children were taken to a Latin Mass, they wouldn’t be ‘involved’. Clearly children were involved enough throughout the history of the Church to wish to become even more involved.
  2. Next what?
  3. And therefore the fact that the Mass is in the vernacular does not necessarily involve children (though it may), whereas the Mass in Latin can (though it may not).
I am not pushing, as you seem to have assumed, for the return of the TLM, or for every Mass to be in Latin. I love the TLM, but attend the normative Mass in English every morning (and believe me, if I thought for a moment that it was invalid or even unpleasant, I wouldn’t be getting up at 6 am in order to get there). I’m simply pointing out something which ought to be obvious to everyone who doesn’t enjoy grinding Spirit-of-Vatican-II axes: that the Mass in Latin was never a deterrent to holiness or to vocations.

Sue
 
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pgoings:
There is simply nothing more damaging to the traditionalist cause than the ignorance of some “traditionalists!”

I have in front of me a copy of the* Missale Romanum* published in 1924. In the* Ordo Missae,* at the very beginning of the prayers at the foot of the altar, after the priest says “Introibo ad altare Dei,” the missal directs “Ministri respondent:–” “The** Ministers** [referring to either the deacon and subdeacon, or to the server] respond:”

So, if “minister” is a protestant name,** your complaint is with Pope S. Pius V** and his “protestant” missal!

Honestly!

–Paul
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I think the confusion comes because ‘minister’ is one of the standard Protestant - mainly non-conformist - word for the pastor of a church. In the old Roman Missal, the word (as you’ve shown yourself) was used to mean anyone with responsibility in the sanctuary except the celebrant. The word in Latin means ‘one who helps’, and it had that meaning originally in English: remember Hamlet’s ‘Angels and ministers of grace defend us!’? So in that sense, it’s quite justifable for anyone who ‘lends a hand’ in the sanctuary or wherever to be called a ‘minister’.

But I suppose that Bulldog is worried more by the appearance of numerous layfolk in the sanctuary, doling out Communion, taking our Lord to the sick, etc, than by the word used to describe them. And that worry isn’t countered by pointing out the word ministri in the old Missal:tsktsk: . (Sorry about the smiley: my son, who’s reading this over my shoulder, insisted I put one in, and this one appealed.)

Sue
 
Sorry Pnewton

I should not or did not mean to put down the laity in any way, the rest of the post speaks for itself

I do respect your posts as they are insightful by the way

God bless
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pnewton:
It is not necessary to be uncharitable towards all the laity. There are many humble and saintly lay people that do not fit this stereotype. I do, however, appreciate the way that you honored our priest your post. I know that I myself can not hold a candle (no pun intended) to my priest when it comes of giving himself daily to the Church and the needy.
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I speak very little Latin and did not discover the Latin Mass until about 4 years ago, later in my 30’s. The Missal is quite clear with English and Latin-and after a while you pick up much of the Latin after going week to week
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CatholicforBush:
Please also consider this. Children embrace their faith more when they understand what is going on at Mass. Children have a difficult time learning Latin, so if you want children to become involved in Mass from a very early age, you must speak their language.
Click to expand...
 
But I suppose that Bulldog is worried more by the appearance of numerous layfolk in the sanctuary, doling out Communion, taking our Lord to the sick, etc, than by the word used to describe them.
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Then that’s the issue that he should address, not his horror that the “protestant” term “minister” is being used to describe them. When traditionalists go off on these irrelevant (and incorrect) tangents they just provide ammunition for the progressives who wish to brand us all as ignorant troglodytes.

Careful argumentation, sticking to the facts, is always more effective in the end.

–Paul
 
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pgoings:
There is simply nothing more damaging to the traditionalist cause than the ignorance of some “traditionalists!”

I have in front of me a copy of the* Missale Romanum* published in 1924. In the* Ordo Missae,* at the very beginning of the prayers at the foot of the altar, after the priest says “Introibo ad altare Dei,” the missal directs “Ministri respondent:–” “The** Ministers** [referring to either the deacon and subdeacon, or to the server] respond:”

So, if “minister” is a protestant name,** your complaint is with Pope S. Pius V** and his “protestant” missal!

Honestly!

–Paul
Click to expand...
Speaking of Missal’s, has anyone bought the New 1962 Roman Catholic Daily Missal -Pre-Vatican Mass.

I found it online and am thinking of purchasing it…Here
the first totally retypeset, full-blown, Latin-English Tridentine daily missal for the laity since Vatican II. This is the most complete missal ever produced in the English language. We have included everything and have produced a missal that is affordable while being of the highest durability. The Roman Catholic Daily Missal will become your life-long liturgical companion - at Church, at home, and on the road.
Features include:
Click to expand...
All new typesetting - not a photographic reproduction.
Updated to include all rubrics from 1962.
All liturgical texts (ordinary and propers) in Latin and English.
All music in Gregorian notation.
Ordinary with rubrics in red.
Gilt edges that won’t come off if the missal gets wet.
5 liturgically-colored non-fraying ribbons.
Smythe Sewn, rounded back binding with durable, leather-like flex cover.
Rounded corners on pages and cover.
Reinforced 80lb. resin-impregnated endsheets for extreme durability.
Fully and thoroughly indexed.
Click to expand...
 
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Marie:
Speaking of Missal’s, has anyone bought the New 1962 Roman Catholic Daily Missal -Pre-Vatican Mass.

I found it online and am thinking of purchasing it…Here
Click to expand...
I asked a TLM priest about it. He complimented it, with the caveate that there was presently nothing out there that was “perfect”, but this was the closest.
I am getting one for my wife’s B’day. Then maybe I’ll get my father’s (hierloom missal) back from her.
If you are budgeed, this site is $10.00 less, but it’s Amazon
 
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TNT:
The younger child has an easier time learnig any new language. That is just the result of many studies.
I can’t begin to count the many children that I have been with at meal time who recite grace (prayers) before and after meals…IN LATIN.
You learn a language, like any skill by frequent use.
I have a niece (17) who is a member of the Churches-of-Christ. She attends a public H school. Her school choir was invited to a state school concert in San Antonio. 2/3’s of their performance was IN LATIN…from Classical Catholic Hymns! She loved it, and so did the audience.
She now has a better appreciation of the Catholic Church…even started wearing a crucufix. If you know the “Churches-of-Christ” you’d know what a challenge/ blessing this is for her.

Please don’t use this as an excuse for vernacular in sacred worship…ever.
Click to expand...
That’s why most people who attend the “tlm” recite the Rosary during Mass and/or daydream about breakfast.
 
I am not traditional in the sense of denying the validity of a Novus Ordo mass. In fact, I can’t recall ever having been to any other mass (I have some vague recollection of a priest facing the altar from my toddler times). I welcome every opportunity to attend a mass in Latin, but hey, I know the language. Perhaps this is arrogant, but I’m not telling anyone what language is good for his mass.

I tend to be traditional when it comes to all modernities in the liturgy, especially those that go against Rome’s wishes. Sometimes, celebrants are ignorant, but when they consciously and willingly oppose the official rules, I have a problem with that.

Priests need to distribute the Holy Communion if they aren’t disabled, as Rome says. Extraordinary ministers are meant to assist them, not to replace them. This is often lost, along with the sense of the word “extraordinary”. I have problems with Protestant ministers serving as Holy Communion ministers or preaching sermons. They have no institution for the former and are forbidden legally from the latter, so the practice is illegal, anyway. I have problem with deacons replacing priests in activities which deacons can perform but priests should if possible. Sunday mass is priority. Communion service led by someone else than a priest should be a last resort and a sad necessity, not a rule. Priests are meant to say mass for the people, not just to consecrate the Holy Communion for distribution by deacons or laymen.

In most cases, it’s simply insistence on the Canon Law being obeyed, not so much as proper tradition.

So maybe I am arrogant, but not really a hypocrite… I think.
 
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rayne89:
Ok here goes.
If by Traditionalist it means
-do not believe in atrificial birth cintrol
-do not believe in abortion
-do not believe in euthanasia
-do not believe in women priests
-do not believe in married priests
-do not believe in divorce (and remarriage).
-do not believe in inclusive language
-do not think lay people should say homilies
-do not believe children should make 1st communion before 1st confession
-would prefer those in religious life to wear a habit
-would prefer to recieve communion kneeling
-would prefer communion not in the hand
-would prefer not to have bongos at Mass
-would prefer only male alter servers
than yes I am

Supported by the Catholic Church.

But if by traditionlist you mean
-would prefer the TLM
-believes communion can only be recieved on the tongue
-believes one should only recieve communion on ones knees
-believe the Mass should only be in latin
-believe the NO mass to be invalid
-believes those who attend the TLM are “better” Catholics

Supported by the Catholic Church.

I attend a parish where the NO is done beautifully and reverantly. There is a considerable amount of latin sprinkled in. We have kneelers to recieve communion. There are only male alter servers (and alot of them.) There is no inclusive language added. Only a priest or deacon says the homliy. The tabernacle is behind the alter where it should be. 95% of people genuflect before entering their pew. It isn’t unusual to see a family with 6 or more children. Confession is offered before every Mass. There are at least 3 Masses available every day. We don’t hold hands during the Our Father. Homilies include church teaching, address abortion, birthcontrol, gay marriage, confession, vocations to the priesthood ect. We have several young men that go off to seminary every year. Ya’ll get the point.

Anyway I have been considerably turned off by the TLM since joining the forum simply because of the attitude of many (not all) of those who attend the TLM and attack the NO with great fervor. Whether they mean to or not they portray a very elitest attitude. I actually had a poster here tell me he had no doubt that I would end up attending the TLM like him despite the fact that the NO is celebrated as it should be at my parish.

Yes I am well aware of abuses in NO. I used to belong to a parish that had plenty of them. What I have said over and over again it is not the NO that is the problem, it is the lack of understanding and the lack of education of laity about these things that are abuses. Things that are not permitted in the NO.

The way some people talk about the TLM I would feel under a microscope while attending. Like they would be watching and waiting for me to do something wrong.

For those that know mw a little better here -yes I’m well aware our (wonderful, orthodox) priest does the TLM indult at another local parish. I still perfer the Mass in English. I prefer the priest’s face to his back.

So then am I a traditionalist or not?
Click to expand...
 
That’s why most people who attend the “tlm” recite the Rosary during Mass and/or daydream about breakfast.
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Daydreaming about breakfast isn’t ideal, but praying the rosary and joining that prayer to that of the priest is a commendable spiritual practice.

I did it for many years, even during the novus ordo when it was said in Polish in my parish until the early 90s.
 
Nota Bene:
That’s why most people who attend the “tlm” recite the Rosary during Mass and/or daydream about breakfast.
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I wish! Since indult Masses over here are generally at weird times (3 pm on a Saturday is fairly normal), breakfast is not on the agenda.

I’ve never seen anyone say the Rosary at a TLM, interestingly: it was certainly common practice before the new Mass, but I suppose that those who now go to the TLM have a greater appreciation of it than before the changes, when it was largely taken for granted. The only person I know who says the Rosary during Mass is a lady in her 90s who hobbles a mile on crutches to hear every Mass said in the church - the NOM, that is. She goes to the TLM when there’s one in the vicinity, too. She’s now ill with terminal cancer, but still manages to get to Mass every time (apart from the 7.15 am ones, as it takes her too long to get herself up and dressed), and is one of the holiest people I know. I’m not knocking people who say the Rosary during Mass.

BTW, Nota Bene, why are you so irritated by the TLM and those who love it? Do you feel insecure about the NOM? I grant that rad-trads can be as irritating as neo-modernists, and as inaccurate; but there seems to be more to your hostility than just that.

Sue
 
Nota Bene:
That’s why most people who attend the “tlm” recite the Rosary during Mass and/or daydream about breakfast.
Click to expand...
Proof positive, here we have alien visitors from other planets…err prot bigots.
 
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