Arrogance & Hypocrisy of "Traditionalists"

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BulldogCath:
Your worried about giving money to SSPX???-when the money that you put every week in your collection plate goes to pay off pedophelia cases-and guess where it is going now, if you have not read the papers lately-the Catholic church is taking our Tsunami relief money and buying some clothes and MUSLIM prayer packages for the largly Muslim people who were effected by the Tsunami. This has taken place in the Australian Catholic church and others in the US, I guess in the spirit of Ecumenism. Get that-to pay the lawyers and to keep the Muslims ready with their blankets and Koran. I dont give a dime anymore in the collection plate-I mail it directly to the cause. USA today recently publised how much each states diocese was in the hole in legal fees and awards and it was astonishing-If I recall it between $500M-$1B but no one wants to release-I think Boston alone is over $100M with 3 diocese bankrupt already.

At least when I go to the traditional church-I know the money is going to build more seminaries and but more chapels. My uncle and the Parishoners there dedicate their own time-like in the church of old- to repair the church, put in AC, and donate time to the grounds.
So homosexual rapes and pedophilia by Catholic priests somehow justifies supporting SSPX versus Catholic publishers?

Do you honestly believe the people here cannot see right through your strawman argument? You need a course in critical thinking…
 
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BulldogCath:
Your worried about giving money to SSPX???-when the money that you put every week in your collection plate goes to pay off pedophelia cases-and guess where it is going now, if you have not read the papers lately-the Catholic church is taking our Tsunami relief money and buying some clothes and MUSLIM prayer packages for the largly Muslim people who were effected by the Tsunami. This has taken place in the Australian Catholic church and others in the US, I guess in the spirit of Ecumenism. Get that-to pay the lawyers and to keep the Muslims ready with their blankets and Koran. I dont give a dime anymore in the collection plate-I mail it directly to the cause. USA today recently publised how much each states diocese was in the hole in legal fees and awards and it was astonishing-If I recall it between $500M-$1B but no one wants to release-I think Boston alone is over $100M with 3 diocese bankrupt already.

At least when I go to the traditional church-I know the money is going to build more seminaries and but more chapels. My uncle and the Parishoners there dedicate their own time-like in the church of old- to repair the church, put in AC, and donate time to the grounds.
BullDog, you’re on fire once again. I asked my diocese to take a collection to help the Catholic churches in Iraq that were bombed. They rejected the idea unfortunitely. If there’s anyway I can donate to the churches there in Iraq, I’d be more than happy to.
 
Nota Bene:
Did you just make that up or is it a new Protestant sect akin to the SSPX?
I made it up and wrote the following to boot:
CWNEWS:
Beijing Steps Up Pressure on Catholic Church

Code:
            Jan. 05, 2000 

 BEIJING (FIDES/CWNews.com) -- The government-approved Patriotic Catholic Association in China will ordain 5 new bishops-- rather than 3, as originally announced-- on January 6, according to information received by the FIDES news agency. The ordinations have not been authorized by the Vatican. 

On January 4, Anthony Liu Bainian, the secretary general of the Catholic Patriotic Association, had announced that 3 priests would be ordained as bishops in Nantang, the Church of the South, in Beijing. But just one day later, the Patriotic Church indicated that 5 episcopal ordinations would take place. 

The sudden shift in plans was seen by FIDES sources as evidence that the Beijing government is putting pressure on the Patriotic Church. 

The Chinese government had originally planned a "mass ordination" of 12 new bishops for the Patriotic Church, to take place on January 6. That plan was a direct slap at Pope John Paul II ([bio](http://www.cwnews.com/news/biosgloss/definition.cfm?bioID=8) - [news](http://www.cwnews.com/search/processor.cfm?searchfrombio=8)), who will ordain 12 new bishops   himself on the same day in St. Peter's Basilica.     

However, because the ordination was clearly seen as an affront to Rome, 9 of the government's original candidates for episcopal office refused to be ordained. One said he "had problems;" another entered a plea of illness. It is not clear whether the government subsequently convinced 2 of those men to accept episcopal ordination, or whether 2 new nominees were added to the list. 

After the original announcement that 5 bishops would be ordained, Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls sharply criticized Beijing, saying that the decision to proceed with the unauthorized ordinations would increase the distance between the Chinese political leadership and the authentic Catholic Church. He mentioned that the move was particularly unfortunate because it came at a time when various reports have raised the prospect of new moves toward the normalization of relations between Beijing and the Holy See. 

In recent months, Chinese Catholics have struggled to rebuild their relationship with Rome and the universal Church. A letter addressed to the Chinese faithful by Pope John Paul II, in preparation for the Holy Year, was very well received in China; Fides sources said that Catholics were "moved by the affection of the Pope." Several bishops of the Patriotic Church had even set forth plans for the celebration of the Jubilee-- in a clear response to the Pope's requests, and in apparent defiance of the government's demand that Chinese Catholics should not recognize papal authority. 

One group of priests of the Patriotic Church criticized the announcement of new episcopal ordinations, saying that the move would **"put the Chinese Church in a dangerous position of schism."** .... see the whole story at the site.
Glossary Terms: Schism
Here’s another from the Cd KUNG Foundation

Now. all I want to know is; are you spending money benefiting chinese goods and gov. and the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Schism or not?
 
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TNT:
I made it up and wrote the following to boot:
CWNEWS:

Here’s another from the Cd KUNG Foundation

Now. all I want to know is; are you spending money benefiting chinese goods and gov. and the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Schism or not?
You failed to answer posting #374…

And oh, did you just coin “the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Schism?”
 
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katolik:
The St.Andrews Missal is not designed for the Indult Masses or the SSPX said Masses because it has the pre1955 Holy Week and the confiteor before Communion. You’ll be confused around Easter time.

I have had people ask FSSP priests on the internet if they should buy this and they said that they should.
You give dimes to the local Muslim working at the gas station, dollars to the local Protestants and yet they SSPX is not deserving of this?
Great. Dandy. Super. For those who would like to judge for themselves, please visit the Angelus Press website.

angeluspress.org/

I quote from our Holy Father’s apostolic letter Ecclesia Dei:

*“In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfill the grave duty of remaining united to the vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement.” *(emphasis mine)

Please note: “…ceasing their support in any way…”

I’m well aware of the revisions to the Mass between the time of the St. Andrew’s Missal and 1962. But, come on. They aren’t that major. It’s not like someone got crazy and created an entirely new Mass in that time period. 🙂 Currently the missal I use is the Maryknoll Missal published in 1959. I haven’t been confused yet. (Anymore than I usually am, that is.)

Also, I attend an FSSP Mass in a neighboring diocese and the confiteor is said before communion. In my own diocese, the TLM indult Mass is said by a diocesan priest and the confiteor is also said before communion. Don’t ask me, I just attend. That’s the way it’s always been for over 10 years now.

I’m sure I give money to many non-Catholics. So what? I’m not giving them money for religious goods. As soon as the Holy Father makes an appeal “*both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal” *to stop doing business with Protestants and Muslims, I’ll comply.

I’m still waiting…
 
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TNT:
Really?

Please take note of how much you buy that says “Made in China”, mostly by slave labor, and a Godless nation. The Chinese Catholic Church in full blown schism in evey traditional sense of the word.

But, if you can point to a 1962 Missal made by a Catholic press in good standing, let us know about it. To condemn a Missal, even though it is the best, and not offering any good alternatives, is not realistic, nor helpful.
Code:
 [Here is a site](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1337382/posts) of posters that have lengthy discussions on that Missal, and an alternative one, along with the old St Andrew Missal (loved by sede's no less).

They are actual buyers and users. Hope this helps.
Again as soon as the Holy Father makes an appeal *“both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal” *to stop buying products made in China, I’ll comply. Still waiting…

Missals for the old Mass, new and used, can be found everywhere, especially on the 'net, without contributing to schismatics and confirming them in their sin. Stop pretending that these missals are as rare as hen’s teeth. That is disingenous.
 
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BulldogCath:
Your worried about giving money to SSPX???-when the money that you put every week in your collection plate goes to pay off pedophelia cases-and guess where it is going now, if you have not read the papers lately-the Catholic church is taking our Tsunami relief money and buying some clothes and MUSLIM prayer packages for the largly Muslim people who were effected by the Tsunami. This has taken place in the Australian Catholic church and others in the US, I guess in the spirit of Ecumenism. Get that-to pay the lawyers and to keep the Muslims ready with their blankets and Koran. I dont give a dime anymore in the collection plate-I mail it directly to the cause. USA today recently publised how much each states diocese was in the hole in legal fees and awards and it was astonishing-If I recall it between $500M-$1B but no one wants to release-I think Boston alone is over $100M with 3 diocese bankrupt already.

At least when I go to the traditional church-I know the money is going to build more seminaries and but more chapels. My uncle and the Parishoners there dedicate their own time-like in the church of old- to repair the church, put in AC, and donate time to the grounds.
Yes, Bulldog, I am worried about giving money to the SSPX. Being a good Traditionalist, as I know you are, I’m sure you’re aware of the Commandments of the Church, one of which is:

*To contribute to the support of one’s parish and the Church.

*I hardly think that giving money to schismatics who have thumbed their nose at the Vicar of Christ and Successor of St. Peter and have willfully seperated themselves from Holy Mother Church and continue to this day to spurn any attempts at reapproachment by the Holy See qualifies as fulfilling that commandment.

And please provide links to the charges you make in your posts about the Church. Otherwise, they may appear to casual observers to be merely ad hominem attacks and, even if true, tend to spread scandal. (A mortal sin, BTW, not that I need to tell you that.)
 
Dr. Bombay:
Ummmmm…a word to the wise…that missal is published by Angelus Press which is closely associated with the SSPX .
Thanks for the heads up…I shall use my old 1950’s one. I love all the Duck Tape that holds it together anyway. 😃
 
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Marie:
Thanks for the heads up…I shall use my old 1950’s one. I love all the Duck Tape that holds it together anyway. 😃
Marie, there are a couple of reprints of the St. Andrews Missal floating around out there. The two I’m aware of are reprints of the 1945 and 1952 versions. Leaflet Missal Company sells one. I can’t vouch for who the publisher is, though.

This isn’t the fancy, highly recommended schismatic missal and it won’t contain all the revisions up to '62. But I’m sure you could muddle through the TLM somehow with a St. Andrews.

Of course, duck tape does have a certain charm… :yup:
 
Nota Bene:
So homosexual rapes and pedophilia by Catholic priests somehow justifies supporting SSPX versus Catholic publishers?

Do you honestly believe the people here cannot see right through your strawman argument? You need a course in critical thinking…
so, WHO is the “versus Catholic publishers” ?
I did not propose to answer these. But:
Contributing to homosexual rapes and pedophilia, or schismatical propogation, slave labor, forced abortion, Catholic persecutor regimes are all morally reprobate…
The Angelus press is the ONLY publisher of NEW 1962 missals, which was the desire of Marie. This is the missal that conforms to the Indult.
So, if you buy out of necessity from slave labor, forced abortion, Catholic persecutor regimes, “crtical thinking” says you need not worry about buying from a publishing house that supports a schismatic group.
HOWEVER, if there IS a neutral publisher, so name it and I will buy from them, provided they have equal or better content in conformity to the TLM.
So, NAME IT…a site will do.
 
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TNT:
so, WHO is the “versus Catholic publishers” ?
I did not propose to answer these. But:
Contributing to homosexual rapes and pedophilia, or schismatical propogation, slave labor, forced abortion, Catholic persecutor regimes are all morally reprobate…
The Angelus press is the ONLY publisher of NEW 1962 missals, which was the desire of Marie. This is the missal that conforms to the Indult.
So, if you buy out of necessity from slave labor, forced abortion, Catholic persecutor regimes, “crtical thinking” says you need not worry about buying from a publishing house that supports a schismatic group.
HOWEVER, if there IS a neutral publisher, so name it and I will buy from them, provided they have equal or better content in conformity to the TLM.
So, NAME IT…a site will do.
Hey, if you or anyone else want ot buy from Angelus Press, go right ahead. It’s a free country. For the time being.

I just thought people would want to know what kind of publisher they were involving themselves with. My work here is done.
 
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Genesis315:
I have a quick question, maybe someone on this thread can help me out. Was there some documents after Vatican II that made additional changes to he Mass? There are certain things (like the priest facing the congregation) that aren’t mentioned at all. I don’t have the copy of the current missal so maybe it says there. When was this instituted?

Is there an old document or missal that even says the priest has to face a certain way at all or was it just tradition that he faced the same way as the congregation?
Fr. Fessio and Adoremus speak much on this subject. Check out www.adoremus.org
 
Dr. Bombay:
I’m sure I give money to many non-Catholics. So what? I’m not giving them money for religious goods. As soon as the Holy Father makes an appeal “*both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal” *to stop doing business with Protestants and Muslims, I’ll comply.

I’m still waiting…
So if the Pope says or does it is to be followed by all? If the Pope says the Dominican Rite in his chapel is everyother priest evil in not doing so?
 
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TNT:
The younger child has an easier time learnig any new language. That is just the result of many studies.
I can’t begin to count the many children that I have been with at meal time who recite grace (prayers) before and after meals…IN LATIN.
You learn a language, like any skill by frequent use.
I have a niece (17) who is a member of the Churches-of-Christ. She attends a public H school. Her school choir was invited to a state school concert in San Antonio. 2/3’s of their performance was IN LATIN…from Classical Catholic Hymns! She loved it, and so did the audience.
She now has a better appreciation of the Catholic Church…even started wearing a crucufix. If you know the “Churches-of-Christ” you’d know what a challenge/ blessing this is for her.

Please don’t use this as an excuse for vernacular in sacred worship…ever.
There’s a difference between saying and understanding. My kids are in a chant choir and we 1/2 the time go to a Pauline Mass in Latin. I can tell you that the only reason they understand what they are saying is because of the missal and because of the fact that we attend the Pauline Mass in English. Mainly the latter. While I love the fact that we are able to attend a Pauline Mass in Latin, I would not be if my kids were at all missing the Consecration for even one weekend! Some think that it’s OK if they are learning the TLM. I don’t! I didn’t even want them to attend the Pauline Mass until I was sure they could catch the translation.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Marie, there are a couple of reprints of the St. Andrews Missal floating around out there. The two I’m aware of are reprints of the 1945 and 1952 versions. Leaflet Missal Company sells one. I can’t vouch for who the publisher is, though.

This isn’t the fancy, highly recommended schismatic missal and it won’t contain all the revisions up to '62. But I’m sure you could muddle through the TLM somehow with a St. Andrews.

Of course, duck tape does have a certain charm… :yup:
Dr.Bombay in your hate for the SSPX you make an even bigger mistake. The majority of St.Andrew and St.Joseph missal reprints are made by the sedevacantist SSPV’s associated publishing house, St.Bonaventure Press . The only other people who reprint these missals are the Angelus Press…
 
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katolik:
So if the Pope says or does it is to be followed by all? If the Pope says the Dominican Rite in his chapel is everyother priest evil in not doing so?
You are free to disregard the words of the Pope as you see fit. Isn’t freedom wonderful?
 
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katolik:
Dr.Bombay in your hate for the SSPX you make an even bigger mistake. The majority of St.Andrew and St.Joseph missal reprints are made by the sedevacantist SSPV’s associated publishing house, St.Bonaventure Press . The only other people who reprint these missals are the Angelus Press…
Well, there you go. As I said, I don’t know who the publisher is.

Marie, I’d invest in more duck tape… 😃

And I don’t hate anybody. Unless pointing out facts makes one guilty of hate.
 
rayne89 said:
Your last complaint is an invention. I have never or any of my friends have called TLM attending Catholics better Catholics.

Invention by me? When I have little more time to search (probably tonight) I’ll see if I can find the quotes from the other threads that make my point.
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rayne89:
And I did say I prefer communion on the tongue but as long as it is permitted by the Church (which it is) I will not rebuke people for taking it in the hand. Not in favor, or do not recommend is not the same as not allowed. If it was not allowed than I would be 100% against.
I will rebuke people for taking Communion in the hand because it is not praised by the Church, it is untraditional, and this has been used to disprove belief in the Eucharist by Protestants.
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rayne89:
The focus on the priest’s face changes the emphasis of the Sacrifice of the Mass. Instead of the Body and Blood of Christ being the center, it is the priest. The priest becomes the center of attention instead of Christ

I’ve never had a problem focusing on the Body of Christ at Mass, even the least ideal Masses I’ve ever attended. This is just as bad as protestants saying having Mary statues takes away the focus on Jesus. My gosh we are intelligent human beings, seeing the priests face instead of his back suddenly makes us loose our focus on the Body and Blood of our Lord? Yeah and honoring Mary makes us forget about Jesus. Whatever.
No mortal is intelligent. St.Thomas Aqunias’s Summa Theologica, the Church’s standard theological text for the last 800 years says that. Have you attended a Traditional Latin Mass yet? Even Novus Ordo priests notice this. Ask the priests at St.Joseph’s or Assumption Grotto why they say the Mass, front to the tabernacle and in Latin?
 
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TNT:
Really?

Please take note of how much you buy that says “Made in China”, mostly by slave labor, and a Godless nation. The Chinese Catholic Church in full blown schism in evey traditional sense of the word.

But, if you can point to a 1962 Missal made by a Catholic press in good standing, let us know about it. To condemn a Missal, even though it is the best, and not offering any good alternatives, is not realistic, nor helpful.
Code:
[Here is a site](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1337382/posts) of posters that have lengthy discussions on that Missal, and an alternative one, along with the old St Andrew Missal (loved by sede's no less).
They are actual buyers and users. Hope this helps.
I’m not really into supporting China but I think we’re getting a little over the top here. We all know there’s a big problem with the Chinese Catholic Church and I wouldn’t be for money given directly to them either. Nor would I give money directly to the Church of Islam, etc.

I would argue that Angelus Press is not in good standing with the Catholic Church since they clearly adhere to the schism of SSPX. In fact, they are the printing arm of the SSPX and do just about all of their pubications. Try attending used book sale. I have no less than 10 copies of the missal for the TLM that I picked up for a buck a piece.
 
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