Arrogance & Hypocrisy of "Traditionalists"

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BulldogCath:
Well I think that the fact that 6 Protestants along with a Mason conjured up this Mass-and were later thanked by His Holiness Pope Paul VI is Proof enough.
The mass was not written by Protestants or Masons. This has been asked and answered before and ranks up there as one of the wackier conspiracy theories I have ever heard.

Even if one of the priest was a Mason at one time, that would be totally irrelevant. Most of the New Testament was written be a Pharisee and persecuter of the Church. I would not discount all of St. Paul’s epistles as a Jewish plot.
 
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rayne89:
You rebuke people for taking Communion in the hand yet you defend the SSPX, how convient. If an “NO” bishop decided to consecrate 4 new priests when the Holy See denied him authorization to do so you’d be up in arms, claiming heretic for the world to hear. Yet you defend the SSPX. You rebuke people for taking Communion in the hand because it is not “praised by the church” yet you defend the SSPX whose actions have been condemned by the church.
The word here is not heretic but disobiedient
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rayne89:
As long as communion is allowed in the hand I will not pretend to be holier than the pope and condemn it. My loyality is to God, the magisterium and the pope. Not what I like or don’t like. Not because it’s the way it has always been done. I trust the Holy Spirit to guide the church.
Please believe me when I say this but do you know what the Magisterium is? It is the teaching authority of the Church, not one person. Let us see what the Magisterium says about Hand Communion

“It has always been the practice in the Church of God in the
reception of the Sacrament, that laypersons receive Communion from priests and that the priest-celebrants give Communion to themselves. This practice, coming down lawfully and justly from Apostolic tradition, ought to be retained.” ("… In sacramentali autem sumptione semper in Ecclesia Dei mos fuit, ut laici a sacerdotibus communionem acciperent, sacerdotes autem
celebrantes se ipsos communicarent; qui mos tamquam ex traditione apostolica descendens iure ac merito retineri debet.") – Council of Trent, Sess. 13,
chapter 8 (DS 1648)
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rayne89:
The difference between you and a Catholic Traditionalist is that you use mere opinion while Traditionalists believe this to be the only way, that is the Catholic
way.
I just realized I don’t to search out other quotes to prove that Trad Catholics believe they are better Catholics than those you attend the NO, you just proved it for me. “The ONLY way”, “the CATHOLIC way”? Does the Pope celebrate the TLM or the NO? *
The Pope has celebrated the TLM,the NO Mass, the Ambrosian rite Mass, the Divine Liturgy of St.John CHrysostom and St.Basil and many more.
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rayne89:
As far as no mortal being intelligent? You can quote Aquinas all you want to try to distract from the point I was making.

Main Entry: in·tel·li·gence m-w.com/images/audio.gif
Pronunciation: in-'te-l&-j&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin *intelligentia, *from *intelligent-, intelligens *intelligent
**1 a **(1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : REASON; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one’s environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests) b Christian Science : the basic eternal quality of divine Mind c : mental acuteness : SHREWDNESS
2 a
: an intelligent entity; especially : ANGEL b : intelligent minds or mind <cosmic intelligence>
3 : the act of understanding : COMPREHENSION
You were trying to say that your wisdom overrules God’s wisdom.
 
Dr. Bombay:
I never said he did.

And I declare your declaration of me being in schism to put you outside the Church and *you *have incurred schism.
Nope, you incurred schism because you declared me Pope,not for any other reason. I’m just using facts to tell you the truth.
 
Nota Bene:
I wish there was a document that said to throw-away those wretched fiddlebacks that look like bulletproof vests…
Do y’all see this?
The man hates the priestly vestments of the Catholic Church! They are wretched and should be thrown away. That’s awfully Protestant of you.
 
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katolik:
Do y’all see this?
The man hates the priestly vestments of the Catholic Church! They are wretched and should be thrown away. That’s awfully Protestant of you.
Ha!.. so are the vestments … what a joke!
 
The following is a list of Masons reprinted with some updates from the Bulletin de l’Occident Chrétien Nr.12, July, 1976, (Directeur Pierre Fautrad a Fye - 72490 Bourg Le Roi.) All of the men on this list, if they in fact be Masons, are excommunicated by Canon Law 2338. Each man’s name is followed by his position, if known; the date he was initiated into Masonry, his code #; and his code name, if known.

**The principle players in the Masonic struggle for power, inside the Vatican, are the Secretaries of State. Also, please note the massive power Italian Catholics have over the Vatican. **
  1. Albondi, Alberto. Bishop of Livorno, (Leghorn). Initiated 8-5-58; I.D. # 7-2431.
  2. Abrech, Pio. In the Sacred Congregation Bishops. 11-27-67; # 63-143.
  3. Acquaviva, Sabino. Professor of Religion at the University of Padova, (Padua). 12-3-69; # 275-69.
  4. Alessandro, Father Gottardi. (Addressed as Doctor in Masonic meetings.) President of Fratelli Maristi. 6-14-59.
  5. Angelini Fiorenzo. Bishop of Messenel Greece. 10-14-57; # 14-005.
  6. Argentieri, Benedetto. Patriarch to the Holy See. 3-11-70; # 298-A.
  7. Bea, Augustin. Cardinal. Secretary of State (next to Pope) under Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI.
  8. Baggio, Sebastiano. Cardinal. Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of Bishops. (This is a crucial Congregation since it appoints new Bishops.) Secretary of State under Pope John Paul II from 1989 to 1992. 8-14-57; # 85-1640. Masonic code name “SEBA.” He controls consecration of Bishops.
  9. Balboni, Dante. Assistant to the Vatican Pontifical . Commission for Biblical Studies. 7-23-68; # 79-14 “BALDA.”
  10. Baldassarri Salvatore. Bishop of Ravenna, Italy. 2-19-58; # 4315-19. “BALSA.”
  11. Balducci, Ernesto. Religious sculpture artist. 5-16-66; # 1452-3.
  12. Basadonna, Ernesto. Prelate of Milan, 9-14-63; # 9-243. “BASE.”
  13. Batelli, Guilio. Lay member of many scientific academies. 8-24-59; # 29-A. “GIBA.”
  14. Bedeschi, Lorenzo. 2-19-59; # 24-041. “BELO.”
  15. Belloli, Luigi. Rector of Seminar; Lombardy, Ita- ly. 4-6-58; # 22-04. “BELLU.”
  16. Belluchi, Cleto. Coadjutor Bishop of Fermo, Italy. 6-4-68; # 12-217.
  17. Bettazzi, Luigi. Bishop of Ivera, Italy. 5-11-66; # 1347-45. “LUBE.”
  18. Bianchi, Ciovanni. 10-23-69; # 2215-11. “BIGI.”
  19. Biffi, Franco, Msgr. Rector of Church of St. John Lateran Pontifical University. He is head of this University and controls what is being taught. He heard confessions of Pope Paul VI. 8-15-59. “BIFRA.”
  20. Bicarella, Mario. Prelate of Vicenza, Italy. 9-23-64; # 21-014. “BIMA.”
  21. Bonicelli, Gaetano. Bishop of Albano, Italy. 5-12-59; # 63-1428, “BOGA.”
    He mocked at John Paul’s recent confession commonly called “Mia Culpa”
  22. Boretti, Giancarlo. 3-21-65; # 0-241. “BORGI.”
  23. Bovone, Alberto. Substitute Secretary of the Sacred Office. 3-30-67; # 254-3. “ALBO.”
  24. Brini, Mario. Archbishop. Secretary of Chinese, Oriental, and Pagans. Member of Pontifical Commission to Russia. Has control of rewriting Canon Law. 7-7-68; # 15670. “MABRI.”
    25. Bugnini, Annibale. Archbishop.Wrote Novus Ordo (New Order) Mass. Envoy to Iran, 4-23-63; # 1365-75. “BUAN.”
    NOTE-the list goes on to 116…
Regarding the present Secretary of State of the Vatican, Cardinal Angelo Sodano:In March 1998, Secretary of State Sodano, who was the papal nuncio in Chile from 1977 until 1988, attempted to raise his profile as a potential Papal successor by declaring that the Roman Catholic Church needed “urgent and continuous reform” under a strong papacy for the new millennium. He then astonished Vatican-watchers by praising Hans Küng, the Swiss theologian banned to teach by the Vatican. At the Second Vatican Council, from 1962 to 1965, Kung was one of two young theological stars advising the West German contingent - the other was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger who is head of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - formerly The Holy Office of the Inquisition.

Obviously, there is no connection between either Sodano or Ratzinger and Freemasonry at this time. (Sources: Pope’s right-hand man stakes his claim to throne, Times of London, 2/26/98. + “Keeper of the Straight and Narrow. The Pope’s chief enforcer of doctrine and morals, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger is the most powerful prince of the Church and one of the most despised.”, TIME, 12-06-1993,)
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pnewton:
The mass was not written by Protestants or Masons. This has been asked and answered before and ranks up there as one of the wackier conspiracy theories I have ever heard.

Even if one of the priest was a Mason at one time, that would be totally irrelevant. Most of the New Testament was written be a Pharisee and persecuter of the Church. I would not discount all of St. Paul’s epistles as a Jewish plot.
 
You’re right! Anniballe wasn’t a Mason. They only sent him to Iran because they are millions of Catholics there.
 
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Marie:
Got it…Thanks Bear06. Just what I wanted. 🙂 And Bishop Fabian and I think exactly alike on the SSPX. 👍
MARIE:
I forgot to mention…
Multiply all the charges on the British site by 1.9 and you’ll get very close to the US $ cost.
ex:
(40+6)=46
46x1.9 = $87.40
 
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katolik:
Do y’all see this?
The man hates the priestly vestments of the Catholic Church! They are wretched and should be thrown away. That’s awfully Protestant of you.
Please do not lie… I said nothing about “priestly vestments” in general.

However, those fiddleback chasables look silly, I prefer the style that is typically worn today which actually pre-date the fiddlebacks, which look a great deal like bullet-proof vests.
 
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katolik:
Do y’all see this?
The man hates the priestly vestments of the Catholic Church! They are wretched and should be thrown away. That’s awfully Protestant of you.
Please do not lie… I said nothing about “priestly vestments” in general.

However, those fiddleback chasables look silly, I prefer the style that is typically worn today which actually pre-date the fiddlebacks, which look a great deal like bullet-proof vests.
 
The Roman vestments"fiddlebacks"] are priestly vestments of the Catholic Church. You cursed them.
I

Nota Bene said:
Please do not lie… I said nothing about “priestly vestments” in general.

However, those fiddleback chasables look silly, I prefer the style that is typically worn today which actually pre-date the fiddlebacks, which look a great deal like bullet-proof vests.

I wish there was a document that said to throw-away those wretched fiddlebacks that look like bulletproof vests…
 
I am sure we have all seen this picture, it is a fact that the Protestants had tremendous influence on the New Mass and the Sacraments http://www.truecatholic.org/pix/p6prot.jpgPope Paul VI with Protestant ministers who helped forge the “revised” sacraments of Vatican IIJean Guitton, a distinguished French writer as well as the great friend and confidant of Paul VI, described Paul’s “intention with regard to the liturgy… which was to reform the Catholic liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy … beyond the Council of Trent, and closer to the Protestant Lord’s Supper … making less room for all that some would call ‘magic,’ (namely) … transubstantial consecration, and for all what is of the Catholic Faith; … there was with Paul VI an ecumenical intention to remove … what was too Catholic, in the traditional sense, in the Mass, and, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist mass.”
(Broadcast December 19, 1993 by Radio-Courtoisie, Paris.)
This is a shocking revelation. (Una Voce / USA, October, 1994)
 
Bernard Haring: a moral theologian whose soul matched his scholarship - german theologian - Obituary
National Catholic Reporter
, July 17, 1998 by Charles Curran
http://www.findarticles.com/i/us/icon_new.gif

Save a personal copy of this article and quickly find it again with Furl.net. Get started now. (It’s free.)

German Redemptorist Fr. Bernard Haring, the foremost Catholic moral theologian of the 20th century and a leading advocate for church reform before, during and after the Second Vatican Council, died in the Redemptorist monastery in Gars-am-Inn, Germany, July 3. He was 85 and had been in active retirement in Gars since 1986.

Haring was a priest medic in the German army in World War II. He published a ground-breaking work Of moral theology, The Law of Christ, translated into more than a dozen languages. A professor of moral theology at the Alfonsian Academy in Rome from 1950 to 1986, he was a most influential peritus at Vatican II. He was also an indefatigable, globetrotting missionary for Christian spirituality and church renewal and a staunch opponent of legalism and hypocrisy in the church.

Some criticized Haring’s moral theology for its lack of scientific rigor and its often homiletic style. There is some truth in these criticisms. Haring was never primarily an academic. He wrote for the church and the people of the church. However, his work crone from a deep and creative intelligence that helped to reshape the entire discipline of Catholic moral theology in the post-conciliar era,

As a church reformer, Haring played a significant role in Vatican II. Pope John XXIII wrote a letter praising and thanking Haring for his The Law of Christ. In his diary Pope John mentioned that he had read with great joy and complete agreement Haring’s book on what he hoped the council would do. Pope Paul VI, in his first year as pope, invited Haring to give the annual retreat to him and the Roman curia and encouraged him to speak frankly and without fear.


Haring also contributed to the council documents. He served on the pre-conciliar and conciliar commissions and was the secretary of the editorial committee that drafted the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World. Cardinal Fernando Cento, the co-president of the mixed commission in charge of that document, publicly referred to Haring as "the quasi-father of Gaudium et Spes."

Behind Bernard Hating the theologian and church reformer stood Bernard Haring the person of prayer and deep spirituality. Anyone who spent any length of time with him recognized he was truly a person living in the presence of God. There was an interior calm and peace in Hating that showed through in all that he did even when he strongly opposed what he considered religious falsification.

He was often characterized, by others as too optimistic. But his was an optimism of grace based on the redeeming love of God. In his own life he experienced deep sorrow and pain. He faced death many times in the war. After four bouts with cancer in the later 1970s, he lost his larynx and could no longer speak normally. What a cross for a man who had spoken all over the world in so many languages! In the 1970s he was investigated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and this cruel investigation continued even in the midst of his serious illnesses. He also suffered greatly from the lack of true reform in the church after Vatican II, but he continued to have hope based not on human prognostication but on the redeeming love of God.

Haring served the church as a committed, holy, intelligent, and courageous person. His legacy is an example and sign of hope for all who struggle for conversion in our lives and in our church.

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pnewton:
The caption is inaccurate. No one questions that there were Protestant observers. There were also custodians and reporters, probably food service people also. That doesn’t make them forgers.
 
Four breakthroughs of Vatican II By Father Richard P. McBrien Cardinal Franz König, archbishop-emeritus of Vienna, where he served for nearly 30 years, is now 97 years of age and as sharp as the proverbial tack. One of the few leading figures at Vatican II who is still alive, König recently shared his personal reflections about the council in the pages of The Tablet, the London-based Catholic weekly (Dec. 21/28).

According to the Austrian cardinal, “Vatican II set in motion four trail-blazing, creative and lasting stimuli” to church renewal and reform.

The first had to do with the universality of the church. Even apart from what the Council actually taught in its 16 documents, the conciliar event itself was a dramatic and compelling manifestation of the church’s multi-cultural and global character. There were bishops of every color and nationality speaking and debating in many different languages.

The third important breakthrough wrought by the Council was its emphasis on the lay apostolate.

“This multitude of different nationalities and cultures changed our awareness,” König writes. “The church laid aside its European attire, which many of us were so familiar with, and some even identified with the church itself, and became aware that it was a global church.”

This change of consciousness was reflected particularly in the dropping of Latin as the universal language of the church’s liturgy in favor of the vernacular.

The second breakthrough was the Council’s support for ecumenism. The two key catalysts were Pope John XXIII and Cardinal Augustine Bea.


John XXIII had been a papal diplomat for a number of years in Turkey and Bulgaria, where he forged close contacts with the Orthodox and other separated Oriental Churches. It was at the pope’s insistence that non-Catholic observers were invited to the Council as official observers.

According to Cardinal König, "Bea’s role at the Council cannot be rated highly enough. He and his secretariat took over the responsibility for inviting and looking after the observers, who were by no means passive, as their designation might suggest, but played an increasingly influential role."

The extraordinarily helpful participation of the non-Catholic observers was “first and foremost Cardinal Bea’s achievement,” König insists. After the Council was over, one of the most highly respected observers, Oscar Cullmann, the eminent Scripture scholar, acknowledged that the expectations of his fellow Protestants were, for the most part, "fulfilled and even surpassed on many points."

The third important breakthrough wrought by the Council was its emphasis on the lay apostolate. Before Vatican II, Cardinal König reminds his younger readers, the church was for all practical purposes a “two-class system,” with the hierarchy on top and the laity below
.

Against this view, the Council insisted that all of the baptized are members of the pilgrim People of God and that all share responsibility for the life, mission and ministries of the church – laity as well as clergy and religious.

The fourth breakthrough concerned the relationship between the church and non-Christian religions, especially but not exclusively Judaism.

In that document, the Council affirmed that the church “rejects nothing of what is true and holy” in other religions and stressed the importance of dialogue with them. The most controversial part of Nostra Aetate, however, concerned the church’s relationship to the Jews.

John XXIII had been determined to put an end to accusations that the Catholic Church is anti-Semitic and, soon after his election as pope in 1958, he asked Bea to consider how the so-called Jewish question could be incorporated into the Council.

http://www.the-tidings.com/img/mail_this.gifAfter four years, however, the declaration was approved overwhelmingly. The fourth breakthrough had been achieved.

*Father Richard P. McBrien is the Crowley-O’Brien Professor of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. *
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pnewton:
Sorry. I was unable to follow the links without subscribing. Is the headline recent or from the 1960’s? Also I do not like to subscribe lest some group have a slanted agenda. I will look into National Catholic Reporter. Does anyone have experience with them?
 
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BulldogCath:
Well I think that the fact that 6 Protestants along with a Mason conjured up this Mass-and were later thanked by His Holiness Pope Paul VI is Proof enough.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh…Enough with the 6 prots! I’ve recommended this tape series before and I’ll recommend it again. This is from somebody who actually attended VII and who worked on the Mass.

saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=388

I think that most of you on either side will agree with much that he said but he will tell you that 6 prots having a hand in forming the Mass was bunk.
 
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pnewton:
Sorry. I was unable to follow the links without subscribing. Is the headline recent or from the 1960’s? Also I do not like to subscribe lest some group have a slanted agenda. I will look into National Catholic Reporter. Does anyone have experience with them?
Yes - extremely liberal.
 
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