Arrogance & Hypocrisy of "Traditionalists"

[bear06]

*Father Richard P. McBrien is the Crowley-O’Brien Professor of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. *

Sorry, I missed his name in the last post. Fr. McBrien is a NOTORIUS liberal. He’s the guy the media calls whenever they want to get a quote from the “catholic church”. He’s your typical “the Catholic Church would never deny Communion to anyone” type.

 

[coeyannie]

I wonder if there would be so much antagonism if the bishops would allow parishes to have the TLM masses. Where I live, there is one TLM at 11:30 am on Sunday, about 30 miles from my house. I don’t call that having much of a choice. Why are the bishops so hard headed. Our archbishop has to know that many, many people desire the TLM. We have an obligation to attend Mass on Sunday, and every parish should be able to have one TLM on Sunday, or every other Sunday. Is that asking too much and if it is, why.

 

[bear06]

coeyannie:

I wonder if there would be so much antagonism if the bishops would allow parishes to have the TLM masses. Where I live, there is one TLM at 11:30 am on Sunday, about 30 miles from my house. I don’t call that having much of a choice. Why are the bishops so hard headed. Our archbishop has to know that many, many people desire the TLM. We have an obligation to attend Mass on Sunday, and every parish should be able to have one TLM on Sunday, or every other Sunday. Is that asking too much and if it is, why.

It would be nice to think this would be so but I’m guessing not. We have a daily TLM at my church and people who attend are still not happy. Now the beef is that the Institue for Christ the King was called in to take it over rather the the FSSP. The complaining never ends here.

 

[Nota_Bene]

EddieArent:

Regarding the vestaments. The traditional chausible at least you can tell the priest is Catholic since most Protestant groups have the current style with us Catholics. The newer ones seem to lack religious art as well. Anyway, that’s what I noticed here in Orlando. See an example below.

catholicucf.com/retreat05/sunday/mediafiles/l113.jpg (plain)

traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/htimages2/a022ht_8_StoleChausible.jpg (religious art)

The fiddlebacks are nothing like the chasable worn during the early church. The earliest chasables looked like the civlian tunics men wore during Jesus’ time on Earth – much like the chasables today, not the bullet-proof looking vests of the 1500’s.

Lack of knowledge of Church history seems to be another shortcoming for many self-described “traditionalists.”

 

[TNT]

Nota Bene:

The fiddlebacks are nothing like the chasable worn during the early church. The earliest chasables looked like the civlian tunics men wore during Jesus’ time on Earth – much like the chasables today, not the bullet-proof looking vests of the 1500’s.

Lack of knowledge of Church history seems to be another shortcoming for many self-described “traditionalists.”

Well, you just never know when “development” is good or when it is bad.
Antiquarianism is bad, then it’s good. I guess it all depends on the passions and moods of the traditions of men after all.

 

[TNT]

Nota Bene:

The fiddlebacks are nothing like the chasable worn during the early church. The earliest chasables looked like the civlian tunics men wore during Jesus’ time on Earth – much like the chasables today, not the bullet-proof looking vests of the 1500’s.

Lack of knowledge of Church history seems to be another shortcoming for many self-described “traditionalists.”

Well, you just never know when “development” is good or when it is bad.
Antiquarianism is bad, then it’s good. I guess it all depends on the passions and moods of the traditions of men after all, and whose identifying tradition is being replaced.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

bear06:

OK, here’s a British company who will take credit cards and can get it to you in 3 weeks. Their edition has an impramatur from Bishop Bruskewitz. We know how he feels about SSPX so I’m sure this company is OK. And if you ever travel to England, Wales or Scotland you’ll also be set!
So now nobody needs to use Angelus.

baroniuspress.com/missal/daily_missal_our_edition.htm

Somehow T, didn’t think your wife would mind since she was using an heirloom already!

Now THAT is a beautiful missal. Isn’t it ironic, dontcha think, that we have to go to England to find a decent missal? Thomas More must be smiling.

Marie, if you buy this let us know if you’re happy with it.

 

[rayne89]

katolik:

The word here is not heretic but disobiedient
Please believe me when I say this but do you know what the Magisterium is? It is the teaching authority of the Church, not one person. Let us see what the Magisterium says about Hand Communion

“It has always been the practice in the Church of God in the
reception of the Sacrament, that laypersons receive Communion from priests and that the priest-celebrants give Communion to themselves. This practice, coming down lawfully and justly from Apostolic tradition, ought to be retained.” ("… In sacramentali autem sumptione semper in Ecclesia Dei mos fuit, ut laici a sacerdotibus communionem acciperent, sacerdotes autem
celebrantes se ipsos communicarent; qui mos tamquam ex traditione apostolica descendens iure ac merito retineri debet.") – Council of Trent, Sess. 13,
chapter 8 (DS 1648)
The Pope has celebrated the TLM,the NO Mass, the Ambrosian rite Mass, the Divine Liturgy of St.John CHrysostom and St.Basil and many more.

You were trying to say that your wisdom overrules God’s wisdom.*
Yes I know what the Magisterium is, thanks for asking.

I don’t see the word hand anywhere in the quote you gave me from the Council of Trent. I assume your implying that laypersons receive Communion from priests would mean on the tongue directly and not in the hand.
Show me please where it is illicit to recieve in the hand. You can’t because it’s not. The current GIRM allows it.

I have no problem with people having the TLM for those that prefer it. All I said was I prefer the NO. If the TLM is the only way and the Catholic way than that would make you more Catholic than the pope because he does celebrate the NO. I’m sure he celebrates many different Masses but the times I’ve viewed the Masses they have always been the NO, which would lead me to believe he celebrates that more than the TLM.

“You were trying to say that your wisdom overrules God’s wisdom.”
**
**Excuse me? I said no such thing. **Let me spell it out for you since your obviously having problems understanding. What I meant was as created beings made in the image and likeness of God we were given the ability of reason and discernment. It makes no sense that seeing a priests front instead of his back would suddenly make us forget the greatest gift God has ever given us, the reason we celebrate the Mass. Seeing the face of a priest, a shepard to the flock suddenly makes us forget about Jesus? I give people all little more credit than that. No where in my statement **did I or would I ever say or imply my wisdom overrules God’s wisdom. **

Your the one insisting on everyone doing things the way you like it, despite the fact that there are different options provided by the church. The Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit. That would be God’s wisdom incase you weren’t aware. So the only one who is implying his wisdom overrules God is you.

 

[mgy100]

CAN THIS THREAD GET TO 500 POSTS?

 

[pnewton]

bear06:

Sorry, I missed his name in the last post. Fr. McBrien is a NOTORIUS liberal. He’s the guy the media calls whenever they want to get a quote from the “catholic church”.

Finally, something I recognize. Thanks for the heads up. I know enough not to trust this guy. It does put the “allegations” in perspective.

 

[BulldogCath]

What!!!

Now you dont like the National Catholic Reporter? What do you want a press release from the Vatican saying that the money you are putting into your basket is going to help Moslems stay Moslems-As per the sprit and directives of Vatican II -that we must respect all religions and the “liberties of Man”???

This is a novus ordo publication-and I have listed another NO publication-If I had quoted a “traditional” source you would have blasted that.

The ARROGANCE and HIPOCRACY of the NON-TRADS at it AGAIN!!!

natcath.com/

bear06:

Bernard Haring: a moral theologian whose soul matched his scholarship - german theologian - Obituary

National Catholic Reporter,

 

[katolik]

Illicit and invalid are words used for the Sacraments.EX./ That Mass was invalid et cetera
Is handcommunion good? That is the question. Has it increased the Catholic’s Faith in the Eucharist as was promised by the bishops? No, not really.
Now here comes the IGRM[not GIRM]. Not everything that is allowed is good. God allowed the Israelites to divorce and be polygamists in the Old Testament but does that mean it is good? No.

Your fallacy lies in the word “prefer”. The TLM is not just a preference.This may seem stupid to you, but there are people who love the TLM for what it is. To you it is just a “priest, with his back turned toward us, singing in that Latin,which no one understands”.That was what the Protestant of 1900 said about the Church and it’s Mass.

Traditional Catholics are as Catholics have always been. It is the majority of Catholics, who unwillingly changed, to become a new type of Catholic. What was forbidden before is now allowed, as long if the Pope or bishop is doing it. Things never even imagined of before are now standard. In days past, women on the altar were condemned, but today it is good because “the Pope does it”. The priest facing the people is another one, which is approved by the Pope and is therefore good. Vernacular Masses are another one, which the condemned[by Pius VII] Synod of Pistoria proposed. The list is long and winding but it proves one point. That exteriorally modern Catholics are not the same as was in the past.

Since under the exterior, there is the interior and the exterior is a sign of interior, is the Catholic’s Faith the same as it was before?
The Catholic Faith is unchangeable but does that mean all Catholics will keep the Catholic Faith?

rayne89:

Yes I know what the Magisterium is, thanks for asking.

I don’t see the word hand anywhere in the quote you gave me from the Council of Trent. I assume your implying that laypersons receive Communion from priests would mean on the tongue directly and not in the hand.
Show me please where it is illicit to recieve in the hand. You can’t because it’s not. The current GIRM allows it.

I have no problem with people having the TLM for those that prefer it. All I said was I prefer the NO. If the TLM is the only way and the Catholic way than that would make you more Catholic than the pope because he does celebrate the NO. I’m sure he celebrates many different Masses but the times I’ve viewed the Masses they have always been the NO, which would lead me to believe he celebrates that more than the TLM.

“You were trying to say that your wisdom overrules God’s wisdom.”

**Excuse me? I said no such thing. **Let me spell it out for you since your obviously having problems understanding. What I meant was as created beings made in the image and likeness of God we were given the ability of reason and discernment. It makes no sense that seeing a priests front instead of his back would suddenly make us forget the greatest gift God has ever given us, the reason we celebrate the Mass. Seeing the face of a priest, a shepard to the flock suddenly makes us forget about Jesus? I give people all little more credit than that. No where in my statement **did I or would I ever say or imply my wisdom overrules God’s wisdom. **

Your the one insisting on everyone doing things the way you like it, despite the fact that there are different options provided by the church. The Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit. That would be God’s wisdom incase you weren’t aware. So the only one who is implying his wisdom overrules God is you.

Does that mean that the people in the Church can’t/don’t screw up?

 

[Nota_Bene]

bear06:

Sorry, I missed his name in the last post. Fr. McBrien is a NOTORIUS liberal. He’s the guy the media calls whenever they want to get a quote from the “catholic church”. He’s your typical “the Catholic Church would never deny Communion to anyone” type.

McBrien is not necessarily “liberal.” He is however a misinformed, abrasive and bitter individual.

There is no question he has unkind thoughts for Pope JPII. The only problem with that (in his mind) is that few care what he thinks, and those that do are shrinking in numbers on a daily basis through attrition…

 

[pnewton]

katolik:

Traditional Catholics are as Catholics have always been. It is the majority of Catholics, who unwillingly changed, to become a new type of Catholic.

There is no “as Catholics have always been.” The first Catholics were Jews who worshiped in Aramaic and Hellenist and Gentiles who were Greek-speaking. The Didache explains how the church worshiped and shows a different Mass than the Tridentine.

The idea of a static Church is a fallacy. As with all things, sometimes the changes are faster. Every generation is in one sense a “new Catholic.” We are nonetheless rooted in the same Church through the authority structure first started at Caeseria Philipi.

 

[EddieArent]

Nota Bene:

The fiddlebacks are nothing like the chasable worn during the early church. The earliest chasables looked like the civlian tunics men wore during Jesus’ time on Earth – much like the chasables today, not the bullet-proof looking vests of the 1500’s.

Lack of knowledge of Church history seems to be another shortcoming for many self-described “traditionalists.”

Then what are you suggesting? We go completely back to the early days of the church? Fine, here they wreckorated all the sacred images in the church. So, let’s go back into the design and scape of the church and take away the electricity and running water inside them. After all, the early churches didn’t have these elemens so why should we have them today?

 

[rcn]

No Eddie, the onus is on you. Clearly you object to the present-day Church. So which Church is the right one? 1962? 1927? 1850? 1500? 427? 85? The Church is a living, growing, evolving thing. Grow and evolve along with it, or be left behind muttering to yourself.

The Church has no doubt always had its “Traditionalists”. It’s just that with the Internet, it looks like there are way more of you than there really are.

 

[buffalo]

rcn:

No Eddie, the onus is on you. Clearly you object to the present-day Church. So which Church is the right one? 1962? 1927? 1850? 1500? 427? 85? The Church is a living, growing, evolving thing. Grow and evolve along with it, or be left behind muttering to yourself.

The Church has no doubt always had its “Traditionalists”. It’s just that with the Internet, it looks like there are way more of you than there really are.

However, the growth has to be organic.

 

[pnewton]

buffalo:

However, the growth has to be organic.

We here should help in with the organic growth. We sure can dish out the fertilizer.

 

[bear06]

This is a novus ordo publication-and I have listed another NO publication-If I had quoted a “traditional” source you would have blasted that.

Please! Are you really trying to tell me that there are no publications that are between NCR and “The Remnant”? Why do you always have to make such extremist arguments? I don’t consider either of these pubications or ones that are close to them such as “Traditio” to be “traditional” sources. I’m all for traditional sources, you just fail to use them!

 

[bear06]

McBrien is not necessarily “liberal.”

Well, I’m gonna disagree with you here. How’s this? He’s a misinformed Catholic who should know better and rejects much of the Magisterium and holds liberal views. Sorry, liberal is easier to say.