Arrogance & Hypocrisy of "Traditionalists"

[mgy100]

You know, the current church and the tridentine mass can coexist. Yes, some people are mean, and I read a letter that a break-off group in PA wrote the bishop, it was horrible. I’ll get the link if I can remember, then you all can read it.
I go to the tridentine mass, but I not going to bash “new things.” Truthfully, THE STANDARD BELIEFS of the Church have never changed.
Think about it, take away all the hoop-la and really look at the church.
The Sacrements are the same, just administered differently. The CORE is the same. When the CORE changes then we have a problem.
Sure, I’ll say the Tridentine masses I go to are beautiful. I love the periods of silence, the gregorian chants are awesome. I love kneeling for communion, but walking up and taking it from the priest on the tongue is just as nice.
I guess I’m weird for someone who loves the Tridentine Mass, as I love the current church as well, for they are one.
No one likes being bashed, and if you want someone to see your side, ask them to see it.

THE WORST THING IS THE TRAD RADS DON’T MAKE UP THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE IN THE PEWS AT THE TRIDENTINE MASS. SO PLEASE, DON’T THINK EVERYONE THAT ATTENDS TRIDENTINE MASS HAS A BUNKER STYLE MENTALITY. IT IS THE MINORITY THAT HAVE THE BITTER ATTITUDE. DON’T BELIEVE ME, CIRCULATE THROUGH A FEW LATIN MASS COMMUNITIES AND ACTUALLY TALK TO PEOPLE.

 

[Nota_Bene]

fix:

Beyond the reasons for kneeling it appears that some who want to call “trads” on the carpet for being disobedient are disobedient themselves for denying the authority of the Vatican to interpert the GIRM as they see fit.

I am no expert on everything every self described “trad” says or does, but I can’t get past this notion that some want to classify as disobedient those who kneel. Does the Pope have to come to each house and privately instruct them that kneelers are not disobedient?

What?

 

[Nota_Bene]

jlw:

You make some decent points. Am I arrogant though, to say that I have cynicism about the reasons given for standing?? Hypocritical, in that I criticize liberalism within the chuch in regards to litugical abuses, including flatening the Mass, and making the altar and pews nearly inseperable??

You are correct on several observations. Yet my beef is with the reasons given for standing, not so much standing itself. The reasons have nothing to do with CHRIST. They have to do with “assembly line” mass production (if you’ll forgive the pun). The focus seems to be on us, and not Him.

First, there is obviously a huge difference between someone who dosen’t agree with a Church directive, yet acts as a good Catholic Christian and follows the Church while praying for the ability to accept the directive, VERSUS someone who follows their own notion of what is “better” when their personal notion contravenes what the Church directs.

You certainly are both arrogant and hypcritical if you fall in the latter group – particularly if you denigrate the Church in the process…

 

[EddieArent]

BTW, not to show that I’m blowing empty air;
fbsynod.org/Web/OffBishop/InstallERB/Pictures.html

Florida Lutheran synod website has pictures of this event. Where was the public condemnation of this event? No where. All in the name of the radical eccumension movement that is selling out Catholic doctrine. Is providing facilities for such an event formally accepting the Lutheran schism? Wait a minute, they aren’t called schismatics anymore. That’s not PC nowadays. Nothing is said of these Bishops in the pictures above plus that of Bishop Dorsey for providing the facilities. But those who want the traditional Mass are lynched and beaten when they dare to speak up. Some animals are more valued than others.

I enjoy watching the EWTN Mass and homilies, but why can’t I find such a Mass in Orlando? Closest way to finding a Mass celebrated that way is 1.5 hours away from me at a Polish mission at another diocese (Korona, FL). That is unacceptable.

 

[Nota_Bene]

Our past bishop, Bishop Dorsey allowed Lutherans to ordain their bishop at our shrine. Who is the schismatic bishop here? Levefbrve and/or Dorsey?

The Vatican says the Tabernacle has to be in the center/a place where everyone can see it. I went to St. James Cathedral today with Bishop Wenski celebrating Mass and guess what? No tabernacle (reckoration at it’s finest). But I’d be damned if 90% of the church were holding hands during the Our Father and some would extend their hands after the Bishop would say “The Lord Be With You” and they with their hands out they responded “And Also With You.” Once again, is this following Rome, or are they doing things they way they want? The Pope says something, cardinals/bishops/priests don’t listen, and we folks then do as we please.

1.) Nothing in Church suggests that loaning a facility to another Christian group is an act of schism. It certainly may not look good, but it most certainly is an act of charity.

2.) No, “the Vatican” does not say that…

 

[Defensor_Fidei]

EddieArent:

Our past bishop, Bishop Dorsey allowed Lutherans to ordain their bishop at our shrine. Who is the schismatic bishop here? Levefbrve and/or Dorsey?

The Vatican says the Tabernacle has to be in the center/a place where everyone can see it. I went to St. James Cathedral today with Bishop Wenski celebrating Mass and guess what? No tabernacle (reckoration at it’s finest). But I’d be damned if 90% of the church were holding hands during the Our Father and some would extend their hands after the Bishop would say “The Lord Be With You” and they with their hands out they responded “And Also With You.” Once again, is this following Rome, or are they doing things they way they want? The Pope says something, cardinals/bishops/priests don’t listen, and we folks then do as we please.

We know that ABL was excommunicated and not reconciled before his death. Bishop Dorsey is in grave and pernicious error if he allowed such an activity.

If the Vaticnan says the Tabernacle needs to be in such a place to make you happy, then most if not all the basilicas in Italy are in trouble. This is not a recent phenomenon in Italy either. Side Chapels are not the creation of tourism, they have been there for centuries.

-Ted

 

[BulldogCath]

I totally agree-why is it that when you are a defender of the faith, you get labeled all kinds of rediculous labels-I see all kinds of notions about SSPX about them being schismatic, and they may be, I dont know and dont care for that matter, and if you dare claim to be a supporter of them, thier positions as it pertains to the liturgy, or pre-Vatican II tradition for that matter-you wait and see how fast you see **SUSPENDED **under your name.

But when you go to the “Non Catholic” or “Other Religions” catergory or whatever it is called on this Board-you have Jews questioning Christ and posts such as “God forbid a Jew converts to Catholicism or another faith” , and Orthodox and Protestants galore, and the rest, and that is all kind and good and we are hammered day after day with Ecumenism and how we must accept it or else we are not with it, or behind the times.

In time SSPX will be part of the Catholic church, for goodness sakes, I read on this board that we are about to let Anglicans in, with no compromise on their part, able to worship as always and deny Papal infallability-and the Pope and the Vatican will go for it. So if that is the standard bearer-the SSPX is not all that bad, and there still is much controversy as to whether the Pope ever signed the excommunication papers to begin with.
.

nohself:

This is a ridiculous and divisive thread.

Jamie

 

[Fogny]

Nota Bene:

Read the different threads. It’s quite clear. Sometimes I think the "liberals and “modernists” (AKA anyone who disagrees with “traditonalists”) quietly visit forums like this to gather ammo for the next fight.

Unfortunately there is no “good side” to that war – only differing degrees of heterodoxy. No, it’s not OK if it contravenes what the Church directs just because someone belives it’s “conservative” and because they believe they know better than the Church what is “best.”

Sadly, it’s orthodox Catholic Christians (of moderate, liberal and conservative tendancies) that pay the price of the abuses and irregularities pushed by both groups of extremists…

There are no winners or losers in this fight. Each individual has his own way to salvation through the church,unfortunately experience play a great part in this path. Maybe in 30 to 40 years when most who have experience with the long traditions of the Church will have passed on it will be different.
The Bishops who lead their flocks show the way, seems like the problems lay with them, if there is confusion among the faithful. We should all pray for our Bishops and the Church.

Fogny

 

[MaggieOH]

EddieArent:

Our past bishop, Bishop Dorsey allowed Lutherans to ordain their bishop at our shrine. Who is the schismatic bishop here? Levefbrve and/or Dorsey?

The Vatican says the Tabernacle has to be in the center/a place where everyone can see it. I went to St. James Cathedral today with Bishop Wenski celebrating Mass and guess what? No tabernacle (reckoration at it’s finest). But I’d be damned if 90% of the church were holding hands during the Our Father and some would extend their hands after the Bishop would say “The Lord Be With You” and they with their hands out they responded “And Also With You.” Once again, is this following Rome, or are they doing things they way they want? The Pope says something, cardinals/bishops/priests don’t listen, and we folks then do as we please.

1. I cannot verify your original point so I cannot comment. If it happened then it would have been wrong to do that, unless there were special circumstances behind the move.
2. The Vatican instruction on the placement of the Tabernacle does not say that it should be behind the altar. The instruction says that the Tabernacle should be in its own chapel and accessible to everyone. The reason that it should not be behind the altar is that it is distracting in the Mass to have the priest and altar servers constantly genuflecting in front of the Tabernacle.

The Tabernacle in my own Church is in a more prominent position that if it remained hidden prior to renovations being completed. It is not behind the altar.

1. The issue of holding hands during the Our Father is one that is a discipline more than anything else. The position of the hands during the Our Father is one that is cultural. For example in Milan the people hold up their hands for the Our Father. I have not seen a good case to show why this should not be done in a proper manner. It is giving glory to God.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

EddieArent:

People are extending their hands when they say “And also with you.” Mimicking the priest when he extends his hands and says “The Lord Be With You.” A Cathedral, with a Bishop presiding a might add.

why do you say that extending the hands is mimicking the priest.? It is an expressive way of giving back the blessing to the priest that has been given to the congregation.

Who says that it should not be done?

Maggie

 

[BulldogCath]

The tabernacle not behind the altar as it would be a “distraction with all of the genuflecting”?. The taberacle has been behind the altar for Centuries-and I dont get distracted at my TLM with the genuflecting. And I do go to Novus Ordo also-I have not seen one Priest, from the Bishop on down genuflect in I would say 15 years. They do this little bow to the LAITY-not even the tabernacle.

And if I recall the GIRM that I keep having thrown at me regarding kneeling to receive communion, was there not some new language in there regarding making a solemn sign of peace or something. And as far as the tabernacle, I think the Vatican II documents stated that the tabernacle only had to be “visible”-more vagueness as you can describe visible anywhere from behind the altar to hanging from the rafters

1. I cannot verify your original point so I cannot comment. If it happened then it would have been wrong to do that, unless there were special circumstances behind the move.

1. The Vatican instruction on the placement of the Tabernacle does not say that it should be behind the altar. The instruction says that the Tabernacle should be in its own chapel and accessible to everyone. The reason that it should not be behind the altar is that it is distracting in the Mass to have the priest and altar servers constantly genuflecting in front of the Tabernacle.

The Tabernacle in my own Church is in a more prominent position that if it remained hidden prior to renovations being completed. It is not behind the altar.

1. The issue of holding hands during the Our Father is one that is a discipline more than anything else. The position of the hands during the Our Father is one that is cultural. For example in Milan the people hold up their hands for the Our Father. I have not seen a good case to show why this should not be done in a proper manner. It is giving glory to God.

Maggie

 

[JKirkLVNV]

BulldogCath:

I read on this board that we are about to let Anglicans in, with no compromise on their part, able to worship as always and deny Papal infallability-and the Pope and the Vatican will go for it. So if that is the standard bearer-the SSPX is not all that bad, and there still is much controversy as to whether the Pope ever signed the excommunication papers to begin with.
.

Where do you get the notion that Anglicans will be admitted unconditionally? In Anglican Use parishes, Cranmer’s service was altered to include the Catholic Prayer of Consecration. They no longer pronounce a general absolution, as the Anglican Communion currently does and has done, during the Eucharist or at all. Where have you read that they will be allowed to deny papal infallibility? The fact remains that SSPX is schismatic and their leaders excommunicated. What’s the difference between the posters who support them and posters who come onto these forums either asking questions or with some anti-Catholic agenda? I guess the difference is that SSPX should know better. They don’t have the excuse of ignorance, invincible or otherwise.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

BulldogCath:

The tabernacle not behind the altar as it would be a “distraction with all of the genuflecting”?. The taberacle has been behind the altar for Centuries-and I dont get distracted at my TLM with the genuflecting. And I do go to Novus Ordo also-I have not seen one Priest, from the Bishop on down genuflect in I would say 15 years. They do this little bow to the LAITY-not even the tabernacle. The original poster was speaking of a cathedral. No, they haven’t been behind the altar, they’ve been in a side or ambo chapel. The “little bow” isn’t to the laity, it’s to the Altar, which they are supposed to reverence at the opening of the Mass. This is an example of what the original poster was speaking of: broad statements without foundation intended to convince others of their ignorance.

 

[Marie]

fix:

Perhaps you could list some examples to clarify your position?

I cannot speak for Nota Bene’s position…but I can empathize. A few weeks ago, a lady who was helping out at a fund raiser got into an innocent discussion, with a Trad friend of mine. She mentioned offhandedly how the DaVinci Code had awoken her faith. All of the sudden, my dear Trad friend got mad as all get out and accused her of all manner of Crimes against Christ and stomped off.

The poor woman was in tears…While trying to calm her down, I discovered… as Paul Harvey would say…the rest of the story.

She had meant to express, that it made her search for the truth of her Catholic faith. She had been pretty blasé about her faith. Reading it (Davince Code) offended her and she did not know why.

She began to research the truths of our faith and became interested in apologetics and how to grow in her faith and defend it.

Needless to say, I love my friend Jim, but I was mightily offended that he had wounded so deeply, a Catholic sister…just because he thinks he is better than those who are not Traditional.

Sad to say…if he had been patient, and listened to Sandy, he would have found Sandy is as in love with the truth and the faith as he is. He could have helped her…but he walked away…judging her as a heretic. He wounded her deeply, and she is just beginnig to learn and love the faith.

 

[otm]

Marie:

I cannot speak for Nota Bene’s position…but I can empathize. A few weeks ago, a lady who was helping out at a fund raiser got into an innocent discussion, with a Trad friend of mine. She mentioned offhandedly how the DaVinci Code had awoken her faith. All of the sudden, my dear Trad friend got mad as all get out and accused her of all manner of Crimes against Christ and stomped off.

The poor woman was in tears…While trying to calm her down, I discovered… as Paul Harvey would say…the rest of the story.

She had meant to express, that it made her search for the truth of her Catholic faith. She had been pretty blasé about her faith. Reading it (Davince Code) offended her and she did not know why.

She began to research the truths of our faith and became interested in apologetics and how to grow in her faith and defend it.

Needless to say, I love my friend Jim, but I was mightily offended that he had wounded so deeply, a Catholic sister…just because he thinks he is better than those who are not Traditional.

Sad to say…if he had been patient, and listened to Sandy, he would have found Sandy is as in love with the truth and the faith as he is. He could have helped her…but he walked away…judging her as a heretic. He wounded her deeply, and she is just beginnig to learn and love the faith.

But good Heavens, why would he be patient and listen? After all, she has nothing to tell him. As a self-proclaimed Traditional Catholic, he knows it all! With minor exceptions, of course, about loving your neighbor, not being judgemental, bearing one anothers burdens, and love being kind, just to name a few.

 

[Fortiterinre]

I think one thing that all of us can forget on these forums is that we are each called to love the Church AS SHE IS! That doesn’t mean we tolerate today’s abuses or create tomorrow’s abuses, but it does mean that it is not enough to love the Church AS SHE WAS (i.e., “rad Trad” position) or AS SHE COULD BE (liberal and sometimes delirious position). Some people on either end of the ideological spectrum simply don’t evince love for the Church TODAY in the way that they speak, and it comes across as arrogance, hypocrisy, etc.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

BulldogCath:

So if that is the standard bearer-the SSPX is not all that bad, and there still is much controversy as to whether the Pope ever signed the excommunication papers to begin with. .

The Pope never had to “sign” any excommunication papers. Abp. L. automatically (*latae sententiae) *excommunicatedhimself and the four priests he illicitly ordained bishops by defying the wishes of the Supreme Roman Pontiff. The Pope never had to officially declare this or sign anything.

In a way, I suppose I should be thankful to the Archbishop (tho I fear for his soul). Without this schismatic act, it’s highly unlikely I would currently have the opportunity to attend an approved Traditional Mass in my area.

Of course, if the Mass of Paul VI had been said with the same dignity and reverence as the old Mass from the beginning, it’s highly unlikely that the Traditionalists would be anything more than a tiny fringe group. Instead we’ve got people inventing stupid things like hand-holding during the Our Father, altering established prayers with “inclusive” language and other nonsense. No wonder so many otherwise faithful Catholics get driven into the arms of these schismos.

However, one thing we can learn from the lives of our saints: You can never be led astray by practicing the virtues of humility and obedience. I don’t want to be a liberal or a conservative, a traditionalist or a modernist. I just want to be a Catholic. The hand holders and new Mass haters can go their own way. I’ll stick with Peter. :yup:

 

[kwitz]

Fortiterinre:

I think one thing that all of us can forget on these forums is that we are each called to love the Church AS SHE IS! That doesn’t mean we tolerate today’s abuses or create tomorrow’s abuses, but it does mean that it is not enough to love the Church AS SHE WAS (i.e., “rad Trad” position) or AS SHE COULD BE (liberal and sometimes delirious position). Some people on either end of the ideological spectrum simply don’t evince love for the Church TODAY in the way that they speak, and it comes across as arrogance, hypocrisy, etc.

What an excellent post. I loved your phrasing of Church as She was and Church as She could be. But my favorite statement is about not tolerating today’s abuses (either rad or liberal) nor creating tomorrow’s.

Kris

 

[Fogny]

otm:

But good Heavens, why would he be patient and listen? After all, she has nothing to tell him. As a self-proclaimed Traditional Catholic, he knows it all! With minor exceptions, of course, about loving your neighbor, not being judgemental, bearing one anothers burdens, and love being kind, just to name a few.

I really do not think that this thread has any redeeming value.
faith is a very personal thing and in this present age is difficult to say the least.

Fogny

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Dr. Bombay:

However, one thing we can learn from the lives of our saints: You can never be led astray by practicing the virtues of humility and obedience. I don’t want to be a liberal or a conservative, a traditionalist or a modernist. I just want to be a Catholic. The hand holders and new Mass haters can go their own way. I’ll stick with Peter. :yup:

A wise poster.