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Sy_Noe
Guest
Well I know this will be hard to believe but since March I’ve had a Cubs-Indians game 7 and now we have it. I’m not bipartisan in that one though.
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oldgraymare2
Guest
Nicely said, Adam.
I have been “voting with my conscience,” for years. That’s just how I always vote. It’s how the US Catholic Bishops tell us to vote.
It’s not about “wasting a vote, throwing a vote away, being selfish with our votes,” and anything and everything else that members are consistently telling other members here during this election season.
I personally don’t understand it if people haven’t read what the US Bishops have indicated to the faithful regarding voting with your conscience. It’s worth a read, if someone hasn’t read the article.
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oldgraymare2
Guest
Hi Convert!
Thanks for your kind words.
It’s always good to see you posting. :hug1:
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fnr
Guest
There are so many posts already in this thread that all say that same thing: we need to stop Clinton, because she is ardently pro-abortion and anti-Catholic.
I will reiterate the point that overturning Roe v. Wade will do very little to reduce abortion due to it remaining legal in “blue states,” the ease of interstate travel (protected by the Commerce Clause of the Constitution), and the widespread availability of DIY abortions with Cytotec. A Trump presidency, with its protectionism and tariffs, is likely to hurt the economy as a whole, if we listen to the overwhelming majority of economists. That is likely to increase abortion rates, since people postpone childbearing during lean times.
The biggest concerns I have with Hillary Clinton, and why I’m not voting for her but for Michael Maturen, are (1) her commitment to repealing the Hyde Amendment and (2) the likely imposition of more rules via HHS to try to force Catholic hospitals and other institutions to perform abortions, tubal ligations, and other sinful procedures.
As much as I oppose these two factors, they are battles that can be fought through Congress, and I hope that they are. Catholic legal groups like the Alliance Defending Freedom need to gear up for a busy four years. Catholic scientists need to look at the regulatory documents that are published by Federal agencies and establish a documentary record of their critiques of how the agencies have framed and summarized the scientific information available. THAT is how we will win lawsuits and contest the way that the pro-abort/contraceptive crown frames the science.
Retrospectively, for example, the IOM Report, Clinical Preventive Services for Women, on which the HHS contraceptive mandate was based, appears to have intentionally and systematically excised all reference to the Symptothermal Method of NFP, since the IOM report’s references include estimates of its efficacy but they are omitted from the report. Had record of that omission been in the regulatory docket, it could have provided a factual basis to dispute the regulatory findings of the HHS.
I will reiterate the point that overturning Roe v. Wade will do very little to reduce abortion due to it remaining legal in “blue states,” the ease of interstate travel (protected by the Commerce Clause of the Constitution), and the widespread availability of DIY abortions with Cytotec. A Trump presidency, with its protectionism and tariffs, is likely to hurt the economy as a whole, if we listen to the overwhelming majority of economists. That is likely to increase abortion rates, since people postpone childbearing during lean times.
The biggest concerns I have with Hillary Clinton, and why I’m not voting for her but for Michael Maturen, are (1) her commitment to repealing the Hyde Amendment and (2) the likely imposition of more rules via HHS to try to force Catholic hospitals and other institutions to perform abortions, tubal ligations, and other sinful procedures.
As much as I oppose these two factors, they are battles that can be fought through Congress, and I hope that they are. Catholic legal groups like the Alliance Defending Freedom need to gear up for a busy four years. Catholic scientists need to look at the regulatory documents that are published by Federal agencies and establish a documentary record of their critiques of how the agencies have framed and summarized the scientific information available. THAT is how we will win lawsuits and contest the way that the pro-abort/contraceptive crown frames the science.
Retrospectively, for example, the IOM Report, Clinical Preventive Services for Women, on which the HHS contraceptive mandate was based, appears to have intentionally and systematically excised all reference to the Symptothermal Method of NFP, since the IOM report’s references include estimates of its efficacy but they are omitted from the report. Had record of that omission been in the regulatory docket, it could have provided a factual basis to dispute the regulatory findings of the HHS.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
The real issue is that the Church leaves it up to our prudential judgement as to the best way to oppose evil. Like bishop Conley has said, voting third party can be a morally acceptable option.
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stevegravy
Guest
Or not vote at all for any of the national offices. If you are convinced congress critters only do a kabuki dance to amuse the public; allowing them to maintain their snouts in the public trough, then there is no logical reason to participate in the corruption of the idea of a representative democracy
The Imperial Capital’s Demopublican and the Republicrat make up the uni-party. That is why nothing changes regardless of who is running the show. The shots are being called by globalist cartels with little to no concern for the future of the republic. In fact the whole idea of a citizen republic died with the assent of the professional politician.
Oh well as I said before civilizations are hard to build and maintain. Entropy goes only one way. Enjoy the slide.
The Imperial Capital’s Demopublican and the Republicrat make up the uni-party. That is why nothing changes regardless of who is running the show. The shots are being called by globalist cartels with little to no concern for the future of the republic. In fact the whole idea of a citizen republic died with the assent of the professional politician.
Oh well as I said before civilizations are hard to build and maintain. Entropy goes only one way. Enjoy the slide.
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randomuser
Guest
There’s also the pesky little detail nobody wants to talk about (aside from the obscenely expensive cost of deliveries) that there aren’t exactly tons of women clamoring to get pregnant, wait nine whole months, then suddenly decide during labor to kill the baby. I’m still waiting for supporting evidence to support the fear that abortionists will be ripping out babies from the umbilical cord and slaughtering them en masse – is there any proof of this? – if Hillary becomes president.
So, I agree – abortions could very well INCREASE, and MORE dead babies, if Trump gets in.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Most late term abortions (which are still legal) are due to fetal malformations that were discovered late. There are a handful of abortionists who do them. In my state the legal cut-off date is 24 week for any reason. The par birth abortion ban was never a ban on late term abortions. Just the one procedure.
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Bookcat
Guest
Tis no one issue - it the most important issue -but there are yes others …religious liberty etc etc.
The supreme court is due for one new member and likely others during the next President - that will effect the country for decades or longer. It is very important that Mrs. Clinton not be elected and yes Trump is Pro life and supportive of Religious Liberty etc
The supreme court is due for one new member and likely others during the next President - that will effect the country for decades or longer. It is very important that Mrs. Clinton not be elected and yes Trump is Pro life and supportive of Religious Liberty etc
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Peccavi
Guest
Are you saying the Pilgrim fathers or the first settlers in Virginia ( who included an ancestor of mine) were legal immigrants given the right to live in North America by the local people ?
Please note - the European settlement of what became the USA was given legality AFTER the illegals had settled there.
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Bookcat
Guest
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stevegravy
Guest
Did they break any nations law when they arrived? They did trespass on somebody’s tribal hunting ground. But, there was no nation no law and absolutely no written law to break.
As in the establishment of all empires the land belongs to the one that can hold it and use it. That is all that law and countries have ever meant.
IMHO
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Yes.
You have too narrow view of what constitutes a “law”. It allows you to recognize laws made by Europeans and ignore laws made by indigenous peoples. There is such a thing a Natural Law that forms the basis of all written law, and the Europeans certainly did break that law.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Doing nothing to oppose evil is a morally acceptable option?
Voting third party is the moral equivalent of doing nothing since it accomplishes nothing.
But that has been the argument all along with the third party folks and the Dems who encourage prolife people to not vote against the most abortion promoting candidate who ever ran.
Buying the Democrat line and wasting a prolife vote is naïve beyond imagining.
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stevegravy
Guest
He who has the guns makes the rules. It has always been victors justice.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
The bishops are not protestants. They do not espouse absolute “primacy of conscience”. Maybe that’s just one more thing the Dem infiltration groups have somehow convinced Catholics they should believe.Nicely said, Adam.
I have been “voting with my conscience,” for years. That’s just how I always vote. It’s how the US Catholic Bishops tell us to vote.
It’s not about “wasting a vote, throwing a vote away, being selfish with our votes,” and anything and everything else that members are consistently telling other members here during this election season.
I personally don’t understand it if people haven’t read what the US Bishops have indicated to the faithful regarding voting with your conscience. It’s worth a read, if someone hasn’t read the article.
On the whole, I would say their efforts have been remarkably successful.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
That does indeed describe the way things turn out, practically speaking. Of course that says nothing about the morality of things turning out that way.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
To an observer in first century Palestine, it certainly appeared that Christ’s submission to his own crucifixion was doing little to oppose the evil all around at the time. Sometimes doing the right thing does not seem like it accomplishes anything in the judgement of the world. If someone believes that voting for the best third-party candidate most closely aligns with their beliefs, they are making an act of faith that doing the right thing is more important than cold calculations of likely consequences. (Remember, Consequentialism is a recognized heresy.)
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stinkcat_14
Guest
Do you disagree with Bishop Conley? I would hardly argue that anything other than voting for Trump is doing nothing to oppose evil.
In my state, voting for Trump will accomplish nothing as well. So I have a choice, I can vote for someone whose positions are in line with Church teaching, or I can vote for Trump, whose position is not in line with Church teaching. Trump is not worthy of a vote on his own merits, so there is no real reason to vote for him.
This of course, is your opinion. I do think it is a bit patronizing for you to argue that those who disagree with you are naive, but you are free to engage in that behavior if you wish. Can you tell me which democrat has encouraged me to vote third party? I don’t really pay attention to them, nor republicans for that matter. I do pay attention to what Churchmen say and our Bishops are very consistent that voting third party is morally acceptable.
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Michael68
Guest
Really? Apples and Oranges. How could you even think of equating this to Christ’s decision. Much, much more hapoened because of what Christ did than a person casting a third vote that does nothin! Unbelievable!!!
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