As a gay (SSA) Catholic, I'm exhausted

[JMMJ]

Honestly, the kinds of people who do talk about their sexuality incessantly tend to be some of the most self-absorbed. And our culture tends to be pretty narcissistic.

I guess this is where I take issue with all of this. You go from having something be common knowledge to talking incessantly about it and being a narcissist. People like me are just hoping for balance here.

What is wrong with knowing that Joe is gay, assuming Joe feels like it is a big part of who he is and he prefer to be open about it? Maybe he doesn’t want people speculating about him, as often happens in church communities. Maybe he just wants to own his sexuality in the same way other people do. Is that really narcissistic? I have to say it isn’t. Joe doesn’t talk abou it all the time. He lives a chaste life, but he isn’t interested in a relationship with a woman. He isn’t interested in marriage, or having babies, and being a leader of a household. His goals in life are very different from the majority of heterosexual guys his age.

Joe should be able to be honest about who he is and why his life is shaped the way it is. He shouldn’t have to hide this.

That is all I am saying. But there does seem to be a prevalent attitude here on CAF about how one’s sexuality doesn’t matter and is of no concern to anyone else. I say, let’s let each person decide that for him or herself. Our lives are greatly shaped by our sexuality and how that impacts how we find our place in the world (as in varying goals, as I described above). Pretending it isn’t an important facet of who we are, denies who we are in our entirety.

 

[redbetta]

I wouldn’t care if Joe told me that he is gay. Fine. Who cares. But if Joe is only ever talking about his gayness and acts so flamboyant that it hurts to watch, then, yeah, I’m not going to want to be around him.

 

[Irishmom2]

I say, let’s let each person decide that for him or herself.

Are you saying people don’t do that for themselves?

 

[JMMJ]

I wouldn’t care if Joe told me that he is gay. Fine. Who cares. But if Joe is only ever talking about his gayness and acts so flamboyant that it hurts to watch, then, yeah, I’m not going to want to be around him.

Again, Redbetta, why would you assume Joe would do that? How does that even become part of the conversation? Is there a bunch of “gayness and flamboyance” in your parish? Why do discussions about acceptance of gay people at the parish level typically dissolve into this? I don’t understand. I have belonged to many parishes, and the people there do a pretty good job of making flamboyant gay people feel unwelcome enough to the point they don’t stick around for long. I don’t think you need to worry about that, really.

 

[JMMJ]

Are you saying people don’t do that for themselves?

Our OP is terrified of being “out” in his church community. I would say with that level of fear, they really don’t choose freely. Would you?

 

[0331]

The practice of identifying oneself by one’s sexual orientation is very modern. I posted a link to an article that outlined this (in a gay-friendly magazine, nonetheless) the last time the OP posted on this topic.

Historically, any distinction on this was made by differentiating between the act, not the attraction. But now, we’re called to identify ourselves by the attraction itself, not by the action. And this is backwards itself.

 

[Irishmom2]

Yes, because it is someone’s own choice either way.

 

[redbetta]

I wouldn’t assume Joe is flamboyant because he told me he’s gay. I’d have to actually see him being flamboyant to think he’s flamboyant.

Also, the reason people don’t like flamboyance is not because it’s associated with gayness. There are even other people with SSA can’t stand flamboyance. People don’t like it because it’s cringey.

 

[phil19034]

I can hardly stand how people talk about the abuse scandals.

I’m frustrated with everyone acting like they know exactly what a gay person’s experience is in the church.

I just don’t understand why people label “heresy” the simple attempt to include LGBT in the church…

I keep my faith in Christ, but I feel like I don’t belong in this current cultural context.

I’m scared to follow a career in theology while being gay, for fear of being on Church Militant’s next headline. Etc.

Are my fears rational?

All the discussion about “gays in church” are in regards to UNCHASTE homosexuals and/or their apologists who want to change Church doctrine & dogma.

So, your fears are only rational if you are unchaste or if you are promoting a heretical change in doctrine and/or dogma.

If you are chaste & orthodox, no one is talking about you.

God bless & be at peace!

 

[JMMJ]

Redbetta, you didn’t answer my question. I asked why people like yourself jump right into “flamboyance and gayness”. Perhaps in the secular world you find yourself having to spend time around people who are that way. Perhaps you find it distasteful. We aren’t talking abou that, though. We are talking about someone who wants to be seeking God in the same way you presumeably do. In a Church. How do you make the leap from just knowing someone is gay, to forecasting the possibility of “flamboyance and gayness”?

 

[redbetta]

What do you by “people like myself”?

Also, I don’t see where all the supposed jumping is coming from. I think we are just trying to reassure the OP that the chaste, orthodox Catholic who knows and acts like he is more than his sexual preferences is not likely to face trouble in any Catholic setting and will get along with his fellow Catholics just fine.

 

[Thom18]

Try not to worry about what those people say. Tempers flare because this is one of the issues of our day- don’t let it get to you. Keep walking with God and say a prayer for those whose tempers or biases get the best of them. Don’t let them discourage you.

 

[JMMJ]

What do you by “people like myself”?

People who equate someone being gay with a reasonable assumption of flamboyance and “gayness” (whatever that is).

 

[redbetta]

I just told you that I never assume someone is flamboyant just because they are gay. But, if I see someone being flamboyant, there is a reasonable chance that they are gay because straight men wouldn’t act like that if they ever hope to attract the opposite sex.

 

[phil19034]

Irishmom2:

Are you saying people don’t do that for themselves?

Our OP is terrified of being “out” in his church community. I would say with that level of fear, they really don’t choose freely. Would you?

I don’t think there is a reason for any chaste person who experiences SSA to be terrified in a Catholic Church.

In my experience, the VAST majority of older Catholics have always suspected a number of priests of having SSA.

As my ultra-Conservative, 89 year old grandmother says in regards to homosexuals in the Church… “who cares… everyone needs to go to Church!”

 

[JMMJ]

I just told you that I never assume someone is flamboyant just because they are gay. But, if I see someone being flamboyant, there is a reasonable chance that they are gay because straight men wouldn’t act like that if they ever hope to attract the opposite sex

But we were having a conversation about how gay people are afraid to let others in their church community know they are gay, and you jumped straight to flamboyance and “gayness”. Don’t you see how hurtful that could be to someone who is gay and trying to live a chaste, Catholic life? I don’t read minds, but it honestly doesn’t send the message that says that you understand how important it is for all gay people to be welcomed. I think it says “You can come, but don’t be bringing any “gayness” in with you”. That is hurtful.

 

[redbetta]

Nobody is physically stopping you from being flamboyant in church. I’m just saying it would make other people uncomfortable and make it more difficult for them to interact with you.

Also, I’d like you to point out where exactly did this “jump” happened because, from what I can tell, I haven’t said anything that wasn’t germane to the topic or what you have asked of me.

 

[JMMJ]

We were discussing someone who was concerned about disclosing his homosexuality and your post jumped from that to discussing people who talk incessantly about their sexuality and are self-absorbed. To me, that is a leap that doesn’t need to be taken. One issue has nothing to do with the other.

 

[redbetta]

This is my first post in response to the OP:

Maybe take a break from this topic? Whenever people make these kinds of CAF, I cannot help but say that perhaps it is focusing so much on your sexuality that is exhausting. To me, there are no straight Catholics, gay Catholics, black Catholics, white Catholics, etc. Only good or bad ones.

Nothing I post addressing the OP’s concerns had any of this “jumping” that you speak of. Those only came up in conversation with you. And they weren’t irrelevant points here.

 

[phil19034]

@JMMJ -

As an outside observer, I think you are taking @redbetta’s post out of context. Or the two of you are talking past one another.

Let’s change the subject from homosexuality to something else for a moment. For example: fornication. I think most Catholics here would be comfortable sitting next to a fornicator at mass.

However, if that person only ever talked about his fornication - people are going to be less likely to want to be near him.

Or let’s take this to another level… Adultery. I think most catholics would be fine sitting next to and speaking with an adulterer

However, if he came to mass every week with a different woman while his wife was out of town, I think very few people are going to want to socialize with him.

There is a difference between being a “private sinner” vs being a “public sinner.” In other words, people become very uncomfortable with those who “broadcast” their sin loud & proud for everyone to take notice.

Remember: pride is one of the seven deadly sins, and typically considered the most deadly of all.

NOTE: My post is referring to sinners. I think the real issue for chaste Catholics who experience SSA is how do they distinguish themselves from the sinner. I think the only answer to that is for them to take more “pride” (for lack of a better word) in their chastity then in their sexual orientation.

I think MOST Catholics would gladly give a standing ovation to any person with same sex attraction who is brave enough to live a holy & chaste life because that’s how you become a saint.

God Bless