As a gay (SSA) Catholic, I'm exhausted

[JMMJ]

I agree with you. Thank you for taking the time to post. But I don’t think @Redbetta and I are talking past eachother.

Sitting next to a fornicator is fine. Having the fornicator tell everyone who the slept with last night and how it was, over the coffee and doughnuts after mass, would not be OK with anyone (I am guessing).

When you sit next to a fornicator at mass, are you willing to make the leap that maybe you best not go over for the coffee and doughnuts because they may talk about things they shouldn’t? Of course not! That is what @Redbetta is doing though, I think. I think it is a huge leap.

Now one may say “Most fornicators don’t walk around telling people that is what they are about, so why should gay people?”. I hope we agree that being a fornicator (an action) is not the same as being homosexual (not an action). Therefore, I am not sure they are a good comparison to begin with.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to reply. These discussions are so important. I think @Redbetta and I will just have to accept that we don’t see this issue the same way.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Why would someone disclose sexual tendencies outside of the confessional? I dont go around talking or coming out as someone who likes redheads!?

 

[Ioannes_L]

I agree with you.
These things should be discussed only with a confessor, not with others, specially random people on the Internet.

 

[phil19034]

I agree with you. Thank you for taking the time to post. But I don’t think @Redbetta and I are talking past eachother.

Sitting next to a fornicator is fine. Having the fornicator tell everyone who the slept with last night and how it was, over the coffee and doughnuts after mass, would not be OK with anyone (I am guessing).

When you sit next to a fornicator at mass, are you willing to make the leap that maybe you best not go over for the coffee and doughnuts because they may talk about things they shouldn’t? Of course not! That is what @Redbetta is doing though, I think. I think it is a huge leap.

Now one may say “Most fornicators don’t walk around telling people that is what they are about, so why should gay people?”. I hope we agree that being a fornicator (an action) is not the same as being homosexual (not an action). Therefore, I am not sure they are a good comparison to begin with.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to reply. These discussions are so important. I think @Redbetta and I will just have to accept that we don’t see this issue the same way.

But I don’t think that’s what @redbetta is saying at all. I think @redbetta is saying that people would be fine talking with the adulterer but not the one who is bringing his mistress.

The VAST majority of homosexuals are not “flamboyant.” You might be able to tell by their voice or mannerisms, but that’s not what turns people off.

To me (and I think most) a “flamboyant” person dresses like Elton John (for example). They turn themselves into a “billboard.” Just like the man who brings his mistress to the office party

Right or wrong, that’s when people are most likely to avoid someone - when that someone is proudly announcing his/her sin or approval of sinful behavior.

HOWEVER, in NO way does it ever give anyone the right to be purposefully disrespectful. But one does not have to go out of their way to be friendly either - esp if it’s going to be fake.

God Bless.

 

[PJH_74]

I’m optimistically impressed by the tenor of this thread. I’m more than happy to accept someone who breaks the Church’s teaching about LGBTQ existence as a member of a church. There seems to be such a fascination with what people “do” to themselves. We somehow accept people who do degenerate sin such as alcoholism, drug addiction, verbal and physical abuse , etc, as “OK” by our nature as humans. There is nothing about wanting to have a sexual relationship with a person of the same sex or a person who desires to live as the opposite gender that even compares to societal and moral harm done by the previous. We need to call out the generational abuse of some sins well before we obsess about the existence of LGBTQ people, who frankly, just want to exist in society.

 

[JMMJ]

Amen. !!!

 

[Thorolfr]

1. If you are a gay secular Catholic you need not fear any “church militant” publicity. You should also note that Voris also is a gay Catholic who was treated less than favorably by Church officials so you might find some compassion for his zeal (misplaced though you may believe it is)
2. Remember that the uncomfortable climate you sense is fueled by a very militant ideology of LGBT tactics.
3. You know or at least understand the Church’s position. The basics. Homosexuality is disordered but indeed blameless for those afflicted. Acting on those inclinations and desires is sinful. Deep seated homosexual or SSA people should not have clerical or positions of authority in The Church. This could be your biggest issue of frustration. You have to be chaste and cannot marry, but you cannot be a priest either. Wow. That’s an incredible burden. But perhaps now you can see why well meaning people liken it to a disability like blindness.

Some people writing on Church Militant seem to imply that just being homosexual is bad. In a recent article by Deacon Jim Russell, “‘Gay Priests’ Need to Leave Now — Period,” he says:

A Feb. 17 New York Times article sympathetic to “gay” Catholic priests is making the rounds in Catholic circles. But few if any Catholic pundits are addressing the fundamental reality here: Both God and Church have made it clear that the priesthood of Christ is not to be sullied by the disordered homosexual inclination.

Men who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies should not become seminarians and should never be ordained. And priests who have such inclinations right now — regardless of whether they “discovered” their homosexuality after ordination or not — absolutely need to leave active priestly ministry — period.

The article in the New York Times that Russell was responding to is one in which a number of Catholic priests with SSA were interviewed, and as far as we know, they were all chaste. But in Russell’s opinion, even current priests with SSA who are chaste need to leave the priesthood because, as he said, just having a “disordered homosexual inclination” (regardless of whether it is acted upon) sullies the priesthood. And if he thinks that just having SSA sullies the priesthood, what else does he think it sullies? Does he think that families are sullied if one of their members has SSA? Russell’s opinions show how extreme some Catholics are becoming.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Dog trainers become dog trainers because they love dogs and they take on the task of training people on how to take care of their pet. They have all kinds of people who come to their classes including those who are clueless about anything having to do with dogs. There are people who come in with all kinds of stupid ideas on how to deal with dogs. Trainers know that to make a dogs life better, they have to deal with people in a kind, compassionate way, regardless of the person that shows up in class. They have to find ways of communicating with all kinds of people.

Now you can ask yourself the question, do you have the kindness, compassion, patience, to deal with all kinds of people, especially those who come and have stupid ideas. Can you find in yourself the patience to communicate ideas in a way that brings them into the right direction?

When someone says they are frustrated, they are exhausted, maybe this is not the direction you should be going. You say you feel like you don’t belong. Ok. Look at other options that will suit you better. Move on to something else.

 

[phil19034]

Some people writing on Church Militant seem to imply that just being homosexual is bad. In a recent article by Deacon Jim Russell, “‘Gay Priests’ Need to Leave Now — Period,” he says:

Well, let’s assume for one moment that the Deacon you are discussing here is in good standings with his bishop.

Next - I’m going to argue a very controversial position. The word “gay” does not mean the same thing to everybody.

1. Some people view “gay” has the same as “same sex attraction.”
2. Others view “gay” as more than simply “same sex attraction.” In other words the person culturally self identifies as part of the “gay culture” or “gay community.” They take pride in being gay and it’s a big part of their identity - God made me this way. Maybe, they even view homosexual acts as natural & unsinful.
3. Finally, still others view “gay” as engaging in same sex behavior.

Therefore, if your definition of “gay” is numbers 2 or 3, than a chaste gay priest is a contradiction in terms. Because in these situations, the priest is either (a) not chaste to begin with or (b) does not support the church’s teachings.

I think most practicing Catholics would say that all unchaste priests (hetrosexual or homosexual) should leave the priesthood, and I think most practicing Catholics would say that all priests who do not believe in the Church’s teachings should leave the priesthood too.

I don’t think most would argue that a chaste, devout, orthodox, priest who believes homosexual acts are morally sinful would need to leave the priesthood simply because he experiences same sex attraction. If he’s truly working on being a Saint and following the Church’s teachings, then no big deal.

But if he’s unwilling to tell someone in confession that they must stop engaging in sexual sin… then there is a problem.

My point… Deacon Jim Russell is a Deacon in the Archdiocese of St. Louis. If his archbishop doesn’t have issues with what he’s saying that we should listen to his words with the mind of the Church. My assumption (though I could be wrong) is that it’s safe to assume that good Deacon means priests who fall into my categories 2 and 3.

God bless

 

[Thorolfr]

If they’re afraid of mistreatment because of their orientation, the prudent thing in my mind would be to keep it to themselves.

Like when I go visit my relatives with extremely different political beliefs, I keep my opinions to myself.

Most gay people spend several years in the closet before they come out to anyone else and one of the things that many of them have to deal with before they come out is hearing family members and even parents say unkind things or nasty jokes about other people like themselves. Can you imagine what it’s like for someone to hear a parent say things like his because they don’t realize that their own child is gay? It’s one thing for an adult to disregard this kind of stuff, but much more difficult for a child or young person, and hearing these kinds of comments from people you love can be quite wounding. I don’t think that it’s very good for someone’s mental health to feel that they must conceal important things about themselves.

 

[Thorolfr]

I don’t think most would argue that a chaste, devout, orthodox, priest who believes homosexual acts are morally sinful would need to leave the priesthood simply because he experiences same sex attraction. If he’s truly working on being a Saint and following the Church’s teachings, then not be deal.

I agree that most wouldn’t argue that someone with SSA who is chaste should leave the priesthood. But Russell isn’t talking about people who consider themselves “gay” or who support the “gay culture” or think that homosexual acts aren’t sinful. He speaks in terms of the inclination itself when he says that “the priesthood of Christ is not to be sullied by the disordered homosexual inclination.” In other words, to use a synonym of the word “sullies,” the inclination itself, he appears to say, is something that “defiles”.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I was listening to Catholic radio just now, and someone called in frustrated that Catholicism teaches homosexual activity was sinful. They wanted the Church to teach that just BEING gay (having attraction) was wrong!

The Catholic host went on to describe homosexual attraction, likening it to being physically blind.

I can’t stand it.

I can understand how that would have been hurtful to you. I know that at the Synod on the Family, there was discussion about changing the word ‘disordered’ used in the Catechism. The difficulty as yet is knowing what same sex attraction means in Gods plan. We know in no uncertain terms per Scripture, that expressing it in sexual activity is against that plan. Yet God has allowed it to be part of some people. I agree with you that being accepted as you are by Catholicism is important and in fact really necessary as you need the special grace of God to endure and that can come most efficaciously through the love and acceptance of your brethren.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Sexuality is really what you make of it. I have a bisexual friend and his bisexuality never really crosses my mind because he does not wear his sexuality on his sleeve and we have other things to talk about.

Yeah, same for me with a lot of people I know who have sexuality or sex lives different from the norm. I’m not planning to have sex with any of them and I’m way beyond the age of having any curiosity about it (and they’re also way beyond the age of needing to sit around and share personal info about themselves), so it just doesn’t come up. We talk about bands or their latest vacation or something.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

I don’t think most would argue that a chaste, devout, orthodox, priest who believes homosexual acts are morally sinful would need to leave the priesthood simply because he experiences same sex attraction. If he’s truly working on being a Saint and following the Church’s teachings, then not be deal.

I agree that most wouldn’t argue that someone with SSA who is chaste should leave the priesthood. But Russell isn’t talking about people who consider themselves “gay” or who support the “gay culture” or think that homosexual acts aren’t sinful. He speaks in terms of the inclination itself when he says that “the priesthood of Christ is not to be sullied by the disordered homosexual inclination.” In other words, to use a synonym of the word “sullies,” the inclination itself, he appears to say, is something that “defiles”.

Well, all I know is that if he said & meant something that goes against the Church, I’m sure he will hear it from his Bishop.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It should be noted that a whole lot of us don’t “obsess” about other people’s sexuality. I would go so far as to say a lot of us quite frankly just don’t care and think it’s between the person, their priest, and God.

And by that I don’t mean “don’t ask, don’t tell” either. I’m perfectly aware a lot of people I know are gay or bi, but I don’t need to have an hour long discussion with them about their life experiences either, any more than they need to have an hour long discussion with me about everything I ever did in my sex life.

 

[Gab123]

I don’t fear people finding out I’m gay…

I fear being gay in the Catholic Church.

Gay = same-sex attracted in my terminology BTW.

I wish people would stop saying “i’m Gay” or referring to others as “Gay”. Just because you’re attracted to something doesn’t define who you are. What defines you is what you do with your life. The whole Christian experience and pilgrimage us about uprooting all the things that are not from God out of our life. If you are a man and find you have sexual thoughts for another man, treat them as impure thoughts.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I wish people would stop saying “i’m Gay” or referring to others as “Gay”. Just because you’re attracted to something doesn’t define who you are. What defines you is what you do with your life.

If a person wants to say “I’m Gay” or use the word “Gay” or “Queer” or “LGBT” etc then that’s their choice to make.

 

[Thorolfr]

Even though it’s not required by the church, one solution to your problem could be to try to stop being gay. There hasn’t been a lot of research on conversion therapy because of the stigma against it, but based on our current understanding of same sex attraction it should be possible to unlearn it

What is “our current understanding of same sex attraction”?

 

[JMMJ]

Even though it’s not required by the church, one solution to your problem could be to try to stop being gay. There hasn’t been a lot of research on conversion therapy because of the stigma against it, but based on our current understanding of same sex attraction it should be possible to unlearn it

Terrible. Just terrible.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

it should be possible to unlearn it

No. Just no.

And if you can’t realize how insensitive and just plain wrong it is for you to post this in this thread here, you need to perhaps take a break and think about it some more.