As Casualties Mount, Bush Ignores Reality

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mlchance:
I’ve read the whole thread. You asked if Iraq ever attacked or threatened Americans. The answer is, “Yes.” Definitive evidence of those attacks and threats has been provided.

There are slightly less than 1900 casualties so far including coalition members. Almost 1700 of these are Americans. Let’s strive for some precision in our numbers.

And speaking of numerical precision: There were eight rationales for Operation Iraqi Freedom. Fully four of them have been met. That’s not less than half. That’s half on the money:
  • First, ending the regime of Saddam Hussein. Result: Success.
  • Sixth, to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian support to the displaced and to many needed citizens. Result: Success.
  • Seventh, to secure Iraq’s oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people. Result: Success.
  • Finally, to help the Iraqi people create conditions for a transition to a representative self-government. Result: Success.
The others are in the process of being realized:
  • Second, to identify, isolate and eliminate, Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. Result: Mixed.
  • Third, to search for, to capture and to drive out terrorists from the country. Result: Work in progress. Too early to tell.
  • Fourth, to collect intelligence related to terrorist networks. Result: Work in progress. Too early to tell.
  • Fifth, to collect such intelligence as is related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction. Result: Work in progress. Too early to tell.
President Bush’s statement about the mission being accomplished was in reference to the execution of the ground war against Hussein’s army. That mission is accomplished.

– Mark L. Chance.
No. we were talking about direct attacks on the country. The op and I were discussing his claims of democrats starting the civil war with a attack on the north. (somehow, it led to this, lol) I asked when Iraq physically attacked us on our soil. To make the comparison with the civil war. I’m not using that as the only excuse for starting a war either, before anyone jumps on me. And yes, I’m so glad Bush started this fantastic war to save us. There. I hope I saved someone a post.

Mmmkay. 1700 Americans dead and only half of the objectives met. I don’t think that makes it sound any better.

Right. He was using it as an excuse to make it look like all was better over there. Total photo op. In his ridiculous flight suit and the band. We were and are far from anything being accomplished, it looks like…why is he trying to make it look like we are. More deception. Big surprise…:nope:
 
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Celia:
No. we were talking about direct attacks on the country. The op and I were discussing his claims of democrats starting the civil war with a attack on the north. (somehow, it led to this, lol) I asked when Iraq physically attacked us on our soil. To make the comparison with the civil war. I’m not using that as the only excuse for starting a war either, before anyone jumps on me. And yes, I’m so glad Bush started this fantastic war to save us. There. I hope I saved someone a post.

Mmmkay. 1700 Americans dead and only half of the objectives met. I don’t think that makes it sound any better.

Right. He was using it as an excuse to make it look like all was better over there. Total photo op. In his ridiculous flight suit and the band. We were and are far from anything being accomplished, it looks like…why is he trying to make it look like we are. More deception. Big surprise…:nope:
I note how you base your postion on emotions, not on logic – “Total photo op. In his ridiculous flight suit and the band.” Hardly the words of someone sincerly investigating the issues.
 
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Celia:
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Right. He was using it as an excuse to make it look like all was better over there. Total photo op. In his ridiculous flight suit and the band. We were and are far from anything being accomplished, it looks like…why is he trying to make it look like we are. More deception. Big surprise…:nope:
Keep in mind that when the president uses certain terms (like mission accomplished, end of ground war, blah blah…) – these terms signal different things such as the status of “warzones” for pay related, death related, and many other instances – to Joe Shmo, it sounds like “ok, we’re done, we’ve won, let’s go” – but that’s not it at all – many changes occur in the “hazardous duty zone” when certain phrases are uttered, which is why those very phrases are used. That particular ship had just “accomplished it’s particular mission” – the fact that the media spun it to appear he was telling the entire military and american people is what started all the brew-ha-ha…(and no, I don’t know this for a fact, but remember seeing it and thinking “oh, well now that makes a bit more sense then…I didn’t know that either”) – I couldn’t figure out why he’d say that knowing full well we’d have to be there a whole lot longer to even begin to stabilize the region. Then I saw that (dateline maybe? Evening news show, I remember that much) snippet and got some clarification. And I for one (having been directly given a legal and binding order) would rather have GWB standing on my flightline than shake the hand of then-president Clinton (scary that I have to distinguish…) – yes, I was given a direct order to attend the “flightline ropeline” because 25 people showed up…so there was a huge scramble. That should tell you something; the people who are going to go and stand in front of a bullet on his order are thrilled to see him; yet, when Clinton showed up, they had to “rent-a-crowd” just to fill a 50-foot ropeline for the cameras…talk about “photo-op” – we just about puked when he took a CRS (component repair squadron) hat and put it on…(I was in the logistics group – CRS was one of our squadrons) – My boss joked I’d better wash my hands before I touched anything on his desk after that ropeline.
 
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leaner:
Keep in mind that when the president uses certain term…etc.
Beat me to the punch. “Mission Accomplished” referred to USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN finishing a 10 month deployment. The President showing up to personally welcome back those Sailors in the manner he did (flying aboard like one of them) was appreciated by the entire crew. As an aviator myself on a sister carrier, I got first had accounts from friend of mine aboard LINCOLN that the President spent hours shaking hands from those who were excited to meet THEIR Commander-in-Chief. I think the significance of this visit is lost on those who haven’t served (through no fault of their own). Now maybe some can put it in context.
 
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Stu:
Beat me to the punch. “Mission Accomplished” referred to USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN finishing a 10 month deployment. The President showing up to personally welcome back those Sailors in the manner he did (flying aboard like one of them) was appreciated by the entire crew. As an aviator myself on a sister carrier, I got first had accounts from friend of mine aboard LINCOLN that the President spent hours shaking hands from those who were excited to meet THEIR Commander-in-Chief. I think the significance of this visit is lost on those who haven’t served (through no fault of their own). Now maybe some can put it in context.
The spin is that he was referring to the mission of the Lincoln; his words say otherwise. And of course, we have the necessary 9/11 reference to reinforce the connection.

“The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 – and still goes on.”

Sure sounds like “Mission Accomplished.” Otherwise, what is victory?
 
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Thekla:
The spin is that he was referring to the mission of the Lincoln; his words say otherwise.

“The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 – and still goes on.”
And the truth is that the crew made the sign and hung if for themselves.
 
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Stu:
And the truth is that the crew made the sign and hung if for themselves.
Sounds a little naive to support that. Where did it come from? They make giant banners on aircraft carriers? All the world’s a prop.
  • “Keepers of Bush Image Lift Stagecraft to New Heights”
    By ELISABETH BUMILLER, NYT, May 15, 2003.
…The most elaborate - and criticized - White House event so far was Mr. Bush’s speech aboard the Abraham Lincoln announcing the end of major combat in Iraq. White House officials say that a variety of people, including the president, came up with the idea, and that Mr. [Scott] Sforza embedded himself on the carrier to make preparations days before Mr. Bush’s landing in a flight suit and his early evening speech.

Media strategists noted afterward that Mr. Sforza and his aides had choreographed every aspect of the event, even down to the members of the Lincoln crew arrayed in coordinated shirt colors over Mr. Bush’s right shoulder and the “Mission Accomplished” banner placed to perfectly capture the president and the celebratory two words in a single shot. The speech was specifically timed for what image makers call “magic hour light,” which cast a golden glow on Mr. Bush.

“If you looked at the TV picture, you saw there was flattering light on his left cheek and slight shadowing on his right,” Mr. King said. “It looked great.”*
 
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Thekla:
Sounds a little naive to support that. Where did it come from? They make giant banners on aircraft carriers? All the world’s a prop.
  • “Keepers of Bush Image Lift Stagecraft to New Heights”
    By ELISABETH BUMILLER, NYT, May 15, 2003.
…The most elaborate - and criticized - White House event so far was Mr. Bush’s speech aboard the Abraham Lincoln announcing the end of major combat in Iraq. White House officials say that a variety of people, including the president, came up with the idea, and that Mr. [Scott] Sforza embedded himself on the carrier to make preparations days before Mr. Bush’s landing in a flight suit and his early evening speech.

Media strategists noted afterward that Mr. Sforza and his aides had choreographed every aspect of the event, even down to the members of the Lincoln crew arrayed in coordinated shirt colors over Mr. Bush’s right shoulder and the “Mission Accomplished” banner placed to perfectly capture the president and the celebratory two words in a single shot. The speech was specifically timed for what image makers call “magic hour light,” which cast a golden glow on Mr. Bush.

“If you looked at the TV picture, you saw there was flattering light on his left cheek and slight shadowing on his right,” Mr. King said. “It looked great.”*
Having served aboard a carrier myself (during OIF), I assure you that they are equipped with a print shop that can do some amazing things with banners and signs being made all the time for a variety of reasons. Ever heard of the enlisted rating of Lithographer’s Mate? We have them on the boat along with Draftsmen and Photographer’s Mate as well.

Now I won’t deny the White House used it for publicity, but you should look at it in the context of it was for the crew; which it was. And how do I know this? I had plenty of friends on board LINCOLN. In fact, one of them was just in my home on Friday and we discussed this very topic. I’m not sure if Elisabeth Bumiller knows anyone on LINCOLN however.
 
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Thekla:
The spin is that he was referring to the mission of the Lincoln; his words say otherwise. And of course, we have the necessary 9/11 reference to reinforce the connection.

“The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 – and still goes on.”

Sure sounds like “Mission Accomplished.” Otherwise, what is victory?
What part of “and still goes on” did you fail to understand?
 
Stu…thanks for the clarification…there are some people whom we all know…insistant and persistant about one purpose…trying to make Bush look bad…somehoh, I belief doing such things is sinful.

God bless President Bush!
 
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Thekla:
Sounds a little naive to support that. Where did it come from? They make giant banners on aircraft carriers? All the world’s a prop.

“Keepers of Bush Image Lift Stagecraft to New Heights”
By ELISABETH BUMILLER, NYT, May 15, 2003.

…The most elaborate - and criticized - White House event so far was Mr. Bush’s speech aboard the Abraham Lincoln announcing the end of major combat in Iraq. White House officials say that a variety of people, including the president, came up with the idea, and that Mr. [Scott] Sforza embedded himself on the carrier to make preparations days before Mr. Bush’s landing in a flight suit and his early evening speech.

Media strategists noted afterward that Mr. Sforza and his aides had choreographed every aspect of the event, even down to the members of the Lincoln crew arrayed in coordinated shirt colors over Mr. Bush’s right shoulder and the “Mission Accomplished” banner placed to perfectly capture the president and the celebratory two words in a single shot. The speech was specifically timed for what image makers call “magic hour light,” which cast a golden glow on Mr. Bush.

“If you looked at the TV picture, you saw there was flattering light on his left cheek and slight shadowing on his right,” Mr. King said. “It looked great.”
Let’s see what “Soldier of Fortune” had to say about it…for Pete’s sake, you’re quoting something from Bumiller?!?

Every visit is like that – media strategists are called “public affairs” in the air force, and one is assigned (grade depends on who’s visiting) to every distinguished visitor who visits – the number of apples in the fruit basket on the dresser in the hotel room is coordinated before the guest arrives – as is the scent of air freshner in the car, if that person so desires…(and holds enough rank to rate this kind of “care and feeding”) – once, after a night flight, I was asked to get “balsamic vinegar dressing” to go on the 6ft sub I was asked to pick up (this is 9pm, after a full 6am arrival at work) for their dinner while they looked over the slides I’d stayed up all night perfecting (this particular guy disliked “arrows” on slides – preferred dashes…go figure) – my point is this: EVERYTHING you see is staged like that; EVERYTHING – the military is all about organization, planning, and protocol. Distinguished visitors are just that – they get every comfort conceivable – most refuse the comforts as well, but most military folks consider it their duty to meet the requirements, even if they’re not real requirements, but instead “preferences” –

My eyebrows didn’t raise at all when I read that – when Pres Clinton came to Tucson in 99, we stopped over FOUR HOURS of flying so he could land…that’s like…a gazillion of your tax dollars involved there. Not ONE soul could be on the flightline. All windows and doors had to be secured – window shades pulled (in many cases, shades installed so they could be pulled…LOL!) – tons of security police utilized for additional traffic control throughout the city – not to mention the TPD officers who were lining the streets. And then there’s the aforementioned “rent-a-crowd” — over 300 people (think of the lost manhours – 1hr wait before, 30min after, plus travel time, which was on foot since all traffic anywhere near the site was prohibited, so that was another 20min for me, more for others…) It’s called “pomp and circumstance” – and you look at footage of any presidential visit to a military anything – base, ship, humvee, – it’s all shaking hands and kissing babies, and it’s all the same.

And is it at all possible that “various people including the president came up with the idea” – could it have been "I want to get out there and shake their hands, I want to be there to say “GOOD JOB” _----- could that have been where his (name removed by moderator)ut came in? Don’t know, b/c they won’t tell you that, they just try to make it look like he said “I want a huge photo op, ok? Screw the guys on the ship, I want to look good!”

Just google “elisabeth bumiller” – it’s no wonder she thinks this way – I dont’ think she and I would see eye to eye if we were glued at the nose
 
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Stu:
Having served aboard a carrier myself (during OIF), I assure you that they are equipped with a print shop that can do some amazing things with banners and signs being made all the time for a variety of reasons. Ever heard of the enlisted rating of Lithographer’s Mate? We have them on the boat along with Draftsmen and Photographer’s Mate as well.
10/29/03
"White House spokesman Scott McClellan told CNN that in preparing for the speech, Navy officials on the carrier told Bush aides they wanted a “Mission Accomplished” banner, and the White House agreed to create it.
"We took care of the production of it," McClellan said."
 
vern humphrey:
What part of “and still goes on” did you fail to understand?
to the sentence structure, it’s the “war on terror” that still goes on.
 
Thekla said:
10/29/03
"White House spokesman Scott McClellan told CNN that in preparing for the speech, Navy officials on the carrier told Bush aides they wanted a “Mission Accomplished” banner, and the White House agreed to create it.

“We took care of the production of it,” McClellan said."

I think you just shot yourself in the foot.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

The banner, by your own story, was at the request of the carrier captain and crew and related to THEIR mission.
 
Thekla said:
10/29/03
"White House spokesman Scott McClellan told CNN that in preparing for the speech, Navy officials on the carrier told Bush aides they wanted a “Mission Accomplished” banner, and the White House agreed to create it.
Code:
      "We took care of the production of it," McClellan said."

So I stand by the assertion the “Mission Accomplished” was from the crew and for the crew as your post demonstrates and if it make you happy I will then cede the point that the banner was made off of the ship at the request of the crew (even though my friends tell me otherwise. Could have been a back-up that wasn’t as “gucci” as the Lithographers/Draftsman would say.) Either way, “Mission Accomplished” was always for the crew. Thanks for proving that.
 
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Thekla:
to the sentence structure, it’s the “war on terror” that still goes on.
Right – so all the wierd nonsense about how the President meant the war was over, the total mission (of our armed forces) accomplished and so on, are nothing but hot air, generated by over-heated partisan propagandists, desperate for any negative spin they can generate.
 
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Celia:
But I will never think that casualties and young men and women my age dying in a foreign country for other peoples reasons is right. I will never think it is just a fact of life. It’s wrong.
Isn’t that exactly what Christ did by coming to a “foreign land” to die for people in another “country” so that they could be free?

Where in Catholic theology does it state that giving your life for another is an intrinsic evil?

Just sayin’…
 
vern humphrey:
Right – so all the wierd nonsense about how the President meant the war was over, the total mission (of our armed forces) accomplished and so on, are nothing but hot air, generated by over-heated partisan propagandists, desperate for any negative spin they can generate.
Yeah, I was privledged to attend my daughter’s return on her ship (not an aircraft carrier) last July. It was a Mission Accomplished for her Air Det and for her ship. Every group returning has a huge celebration upon returning home. It was a moving, wonderful day that I will never forget. To see all the Sailors standing at attention while the ship comes in was beyond awesome. She had returned by air about an hour earlier so we witnessed that and then went to the ship to see it come in. It is a day of such emotion.

When I saw our President on the Aircraft Carrier giving those that served the longest in the Gulf (about a year on the ship) it was a wonderful tribute. I was really sickened at all the hoopla about it. I don’t think the complainers would have complained if they had any heart for those that served.
 
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