As Casualties Mount, Bush Ignores Reality

[vern_humphrey]

Celia:

Who’s being emotional now?
I think you’re being very accusatory. I have stated a few times - and in the post you’re quoting - that I have never been completely anti-Iraq war. I am willing to learn. You are willing to jump on anyone that shows the slightest disagreement with the government. I would never “denegrate” our troops. How dare you. I’m not attacking your cause. I’m questioning it. There’s a big difference.

Not a big enough difference to allow you to say truthfully you aren’t giving aid and comfor to out enemy.

Celia:

And as for giving aid and comfort to the enemy…that just is disgusting. Yeah, you’re right. I want to give aid and comfort to the people that are shooting at my family and friends.
I’m speechless right now. :nope:

You bet it’s disgusting – the more so when you admit your father suffered from just this kind of nonsense.

American troops are dying. People in the United States who give the enemy leave to hope that there will be a collapse of American political will contribute to the death of those troops.

 

[mike182d]

Celia:

I’ve seen this attitude on this board before. And I think it’s pretty pro-Iraqi war here.
I don’t know what you mean. I would like to know the real truth. I wouldn’t want to be lied to. Are you saying that if the latter was true they should tell you the former anyway, just so it sounds better and makes you feel better?
I would never “flaunt” soldiers deaths. That’s gross. Bringing up how many people have died in this war is a fact.

Who’s lying? What’s the “lie” you’re trying to expose?

That’s the problem. The American political-“insurgency” is recklessly destroying the name of America and their troops to the rest of the world based on what? Inclinations? Blind hatred?

It certainly is not hard fact.

Yes, I believe you should search for the truth, but an American is innocent until proven guilty. It does not help further the pursuit of truth if you begin it under the assumption that Bush is a liar and the Iraqi war is a lie. That is the problem.

 

[space_ghost]

gilliam:

Well SMOKIN Joe is wrong in this case.

1. The war has turned. Less attacks occur each day (has been going on for weeks now). bin-Laden and now al-Zaharwi are running for their lives.
2. Bush’s approval rating hit 53% today.

PS: sure a lot of SMOKIN Joes around. Everytime I turn around there seems to be another one.

yep, if we can kill enough people, we will finally end this thing… then we can move on to the next oil well,…err… axis of evil:thumbsup:

 

[Celia]

vern humphrey:

Not a big enough difference to allow you to say truthfully you aren’t giving aid and comfor to out enemy.

You bet it’s disgusting – the more so when you admit your father suffered from just this kind of nonsense.

American troops are dying. People in the United States who give the enemy leave to hope that there will be a collapse of American political will contribute to the death of those troops.

I’m giving aid and comfort to the enemy because I’m asking questions about things I don’t understand? Right.
How dare you put me in the league of cowards that spit on our veterans. If you want people to understand your point of view, then maybe you shouldn’t accuse them of things that are untrue. It really doesn’t make you look any better. I have questions about the war, so I must be a hippie commie. Get real. I love our soldiers and would never, ever treat them that way. You have a lot of nerve.

 

[leaner]

space ghost:

yep, if we can kill enough people, we will finally end this thing… then we can move on to the next oil well,…err… axis of evil:thumbsup:

See, this is where I get confusticated…how does helping set up a democracy in Iraq and removing Sadaam from power get us all those oil wells? Won’t they still belong to the people of Iraq? Didn’t they before? How is this a cash cow for us – I’m seriously asking the question, not being sarcastic…did the Iraqis promise us the wells if we threw out Sadaam or something? ( I know, showing my ignorance…but I keep hearing this “it’s oil money, and nothing else” but I don’t see how we’d benefit – is there a prize at the end?)

 

[Celia]

mike182d:

Who’s lying? What’s the “lie” you’re trying to expose?

That’s the problem. The American political-“insurgency” is recklessly destroying the name of America and their troops to the rest of the world based on what? Inclinations? Blind hatred?

It certainly is not hard fact.

Yes, I believe you should search for the truth, but an American is innocent until proven guilty. It does not help further the pursuit of truth if you begin it under the assumption that Bush is a liar and the Iraqi war is a lie. That is the problem.

IF the latter were true, then I wouldn’t want to be lied to and told the former. I’m not trying to expose any lies. I’m trying to understand.
Based on the fact that I love my country and I don’t like seeing her dragged through the mud. When other countries or people in general insult us, I want to be ready with proof that we’re doing the right thing.
I don’t like Bush. That’s my right. You’re probably not in love with Clinton. Until I have a reason to like him, I’ll keep my opinions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Celia:

IF the latter were true, then I wouldn’t want to be lied to and told the former. I’m not trying to expose any lies. I’m trying to understand.
Based on the fact that I love my country and I don’t like seeing her dragged through the mud. When other countries or people in general insult us, I want to be ready with proof that we’re doing the right thing.

You’ve already come out with things like the Federal government had a real estate tax and laid export duties on Southern products. Both of those are wrong.

Do you see that you might also be just as wrong in your opinions about this war?

Celia:

I don’t like Bush. That’s my right. You’re probably not in love with Clinton. Until I have a reason to like him, I’ll keep my opinions.

And that’s the bottom line. You “don’t like Bush.” And that justifies any attack or wild claim – even if it gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

 

[kp1]

I do not think the non-military people understand how important morale is to our men and women in combat. Try to see it from their perspective. They are pulling 24 hour days in extreme heat (by our standards), nearly getting their heads blown off, all to HELP STABILIZE Iraq. The terrorists are coming in from other countries, Iraq is the playing field so to speak. It would be different if the insurgentd were the Iraqi people, but they want their freedom too.

So here you have Soldier Joe/Jane fighting to help and stay alive. He gets mail from his loved ones who have to tell them what protests are going on or sees a news broadcast at camp. You do not think this is hurting their spirit. You can not say you support them, but not the war. That is saying their actions mean nothing. They sacrifice their secure homes, time with loved ones, and sometimes their life to help the greater good.

I ask you, step outside of your ideological box and see what is going on in the whole world. The US is the only ones with the $$$ and know how to stop the terrorists. We have to stop thinking of oueselves and see the big picture.

The terrorists are like Satan. They do not have the means to take over the whole US, like Satan wants to do with the Catholic Church. SO they do it a little at a time. They spread rummors and when one does fall, it is publicised to no end. This publicity causes others to question things and then do some sort of action be it suicide bombing or leaving the church for something easier. The US has a big investent in it’s industry and money, so this blow by the terrorists was not to get out attention but to try to destabilize the economy. Satan feels if he can destabilise the structure of the church (attacking church teachings, rouge priests, etc) then it will fall. This is not something new, you history buffs can add your examples of this ploy. It is called starting a civil war inside the country or organization you want to destroy. First you beef up the weaker side, give them their ammo. Once they start to quarrel, you just have to give a little nudge every now and then until they destroy each other.

This is why the other poster said if they really wanted to do a dent to the military, why not the Army/Navy Games? They knew this dent would only be temporary, to go after something more personal to EVERY American, their economy which effects our standard of living is the long term goal. This would totally destabilize us as a nation. So everytime you protest and corrupt the morale of the people, you are giving to THEIR cause not ours.

Yes you do have freedom of speach, but we also have free will. Both can be a blessing and a curse! Our Country, protect LIFE,LIBERTY, and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS! When is your happiness better of than that of the whole country or the world? Some times we must make sacrifices for the greater good, even if it disrupts our “happiness”. I am in a military family, and from a long line of military involvement! Name the war and I have a family member in it! We know the sacrifices.

Please take these things to heart! I am not attacking, just trying to open your heart, mind, and soul. Please Pray for our men and women in the military!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Celia:

I’m giving aid and comfort to the enemy because I’m asking questions about things I don’t understand? Right.
How dare you put me in the league of cowards that spit on our veterans.

It’s simple. I’ve been there. I’ve heard all the rhetoric before. And I’ve seen the effect it had in Viet Nam.

You are contributing your weight to people who would love to do to this generation of American soliders what was done to my generation.

Celia:

If you want people to understand your point of view, then maybe you shouldn’t accuse them of things that are untrue. It really doesn’t make you look any better.

If you want people to understand your point of view, then maybe you should tell the truth, and not come up with bogus parallels with tha Civil War and wild claims about Federal real estate taxes and export duties.

Celia:

I have questions about the war, so I must be a hippie commie. Get real. I love our soldiers and would never, ever treat them that way. You have a lot of nerve.

Your questions all seem to come in the form of declarative statements – which harm our cause and endanger our troops.

 

[vern_humphrey]

kp1:

I do not think the non-military people understand how important moral is to our men and women in combat. Try to see it from their perspective. They are pulling 24 hour days in extreme heat (by our standards), nearly getting their heads blown off, all to HELP STABILIZE Iraq. The terrorists are coming in from other countries, Iraq is the playing field so to speak. It would be different if the insurgentd were the Iraqi people, but they want their freedom too.

A critical point is that morale is important to the enemy, too. And when Americans attack our cause, they bolster the enemy’s morale.

 

[oat_soda]

Our Country, protect LIFE,

LIBERTY, and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS! our country doesn’t protect life. the death penalty, contraception, euthanasia, abortion (46,023,191 babies killed since 1973), hiroshima… are all a result of our government decisions. really what you have is the pursuit of our happiness. how much misery and death have we inflicted on iraq? how many civilians are killed by terrorists (nationalism)? how many iraq soldiers were killed to bring sadam down? was it worth it? there is no way you can reconcile this war with the just war doctrine because it isn’t just!

why would we force an american styled democracy when our culture takes far more innocent life then sadam’s regime has. what american liberty really comes down to is materialism, greed, and convenience.

our soldiers sailors airmen and marines have kicked major butt and are doing an outstanding job. but our culture is really a culture of death and we should impose it on anyone else.

 

[vern_humphrey]

oat soda:

our country doesn’t protect life. the death penalty, contraception, euthanasia, abortion (46,023,191 babies killed since 1973), hiroshima… are all a result of our government decisions. really what you have is the pursuit of our happiness. how much misery and death have we inflicted on iraq? how many civilians are killed by terrorists (nationalism)? how many iraq soldiers were killed to bring sadam down? was it worth it? there is no way you can reconcile this war with the just war doctrine because it isn’t just!

why would we force an american styled democracy when our culture takes far more innocent life then sadam’s regime has. what american liberty really comes down to is materialism, greed, and convenience.

our soldiers sailors airmen and marines have kicked major butt and are doing an outstanding job. but our culture is really a culture of death and we should impose it on anyone else.

And when you give terrorists leave to hope they can win in the streets of Ameica what they can’t win on the battlefield, you become a charter member of the cult of death.

 

[oat_soda]

And when you give terrorists leave to hope they can win in the streets of Ameica what they can’t win on the battlefield, you become a charter member of the cult of death.

john paul ii the great opposed the war and so did cardinal ratzinger. i hate terrorism as much as i hate any evil. but it is immoral to fight a preemptive war. it’s not me saying this, it is the church. look at the just war doctrine in the catechism. i’m catholic first, american second.

In this regard Just War doctrine gives certain conditions for the legitimate exercise of force, all of which must be met

:1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; 2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; 3. there must be serious prospects of success; 4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition" CCC 2309]. the only conditon met may have been number 2, possibly number 3 but number 1 and 4 are a big negative. so it is not a just war.

 

[Celia]

vern humphrey:

You’ve already come out with things like the Federal government had a real estate tax and laid export duties on Southern products. Both of those are wrong.

Do you see that you might also be just as wrong in your opinions about this war?

And that’s the bottom line. You “don’t like Bush.” And that justifies any attack or wild claim – even if it gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

I don’t believe I ever mentioned a real estate tax. And, I thought we settled the issue on “export duties”. I admitted I could be wrong. I still need to clarify. What is your deal.

My opinions are what they are. I never said and have stated repeatedly that they could change if I was convinced otherwise.

Oh please. You don’t have proof of any such thing. Get over yourself.

 

[mlchance]

4.I’d like to know where I came across as “obsessed with honesty” because I’m questioning some of the motives of my government? I think I’m being willing to learn. Apparently I’m not supposed to ask questions.
5. thanks for being so judgemental. I have a few comments I could make (that probably would get me suspended) but I’d rather not throw stones. Even though you are the second person on here who has felt free to do so.

Right. You have carte blanche to accuse people of lying, but when your perceived inability to admit facts to the contrary is questioned…

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Celia:

I don’t believe I ever mentioned a real estate tax. And, I thought we settled the issue on “export duties”. I admitted I could be wrong. I still need to clarify. What is your deal.

These aren’t your words?

Fourth- Like I mentioned in the first response, several other reasons for leaving. The north was trying to control who they sold their cotton/other crops too. Was trying to tax their land and profits unnecessarily.

Celia:

My opinions are what they are. I never said and have stated repeatedly that they could change if I was convinced otherwise.

In other words, based on your prejudices.

Celia:

Oh please. You don’t have proof of any such thing. Get over yourself.

You, yourself said you “don’t like Bush.”

Now, why would you say such a thing? I don’t like broccoli, but I don’t interject it into debates. Clearly YOU see a connection between “don’t like Bush” and your position on the war.

QED

 

[vern_humphrey]

mlchance:

Right. You have carte blanche to accuse people of lying, but when your perceived inability to admit facts to the contrary is questioned…

– Mark L. Chance.

Standard operating procedure. *** I*** have a right to say anything I want, and YOU have no right to reply.

Whenever the left is backed into a corner, they always pretend that when you question them, you are somehow infringing on their right to freedom of speech.

 

[Celia]

vern humphrey:

It’s simple. I’ve been there. I’ve heard all the rhetoric before. And I’ve seen the effect it had in Viet Nam.

You are contributing your weight to people who would love to do to this generation of American soliders what was done to my generation.

If you want people to understand your point of view, then maybe you should tell the truth, and not come up with bogus parallels with tha Civil War and wild claims about Federal real estate taxes and export duties.

Your questions all seem to come in the form of declarative statements – which harm our cause and endanger our troops.

Know what? This isn’t Vietnam. It’s a different generation and a different attitude. I don’t have the same attitude as the anti war protesters in the 60’s. And you have no right to say I do from what you’ve gathered from a few comments (that you obviously misunderstood) on a message board.

You were the one that started the whole civil war deal. It wasn’t a bogus parallel. It seemed pretty clear to me. And, it wasn’t meant to be for or against Bush. It was just a thought. As for the tax thing, refer to above post.

I doubt my “declarative statements” have endangered any troops. From now on, I’ll put them in question form though, just in case.

I think I’m done with this conversation with you. I think I’ve said everything I want to with you and I need to bow out before it starts getting more uncharitable. Have a good day.

 

[Celia]

mlchance:

Right. You have carte blanche to accuse people of lying, but when your perceived inability to admit facts to the contrary is questioned…

– Mark L. Chance.

Mark, I’ve said a couple times that it’s possible that I might be wrong. Like that tax thing on my other convo. I don’t know what facts I’m not admitting to, I’m sorry.

 

[Celia]

vern humphrey:

These aren’t your words?

In other words, based on your prejudices.

You, yourself said you “don’t like Bush.”

Now, why would you say such a thing? I don’t like broccoli, but I don’t interject it into debates. Clearly YOU see a connection between “don’t like Bush” and your position on the war.

QED

Ok, just one more…

I’m going to say it again…so you can be really happy…I should not have stated what I did about the tax thing without knowing the absolute facts. It was wrong to put that up there with only having memories of my class and no proof to back it up. Why can’t you accept this??

Based on what I feel is right.

I see a connection between Bush and the war, you’re right. And I don’t like him. And I’m suspicious. I think I’m feeling a little deja vous, too…