As Casualties Mount, Bush Ignores Reality

[Thekla]

was part of the WH plan; they don’t deny it either. And I take them at their words as well; all of their words and all that they imply.

“The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 – and still goes on.” (5/03)

But just so we are clear, I’m not the one that brought it up the “Mission Accomplished” banner in the first place…

Stu wrote:
“Beat me to the punch. “Mission Accomplished” referred to USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN finishing a 10 month deployment.”
vern humphrey:

You have implied again and again that the sign was part of the White House plan. That it meant the whole mission of all our armed forces was accomplished.

If you deny that, answer this – why even discuss the incident?

The issue is the propgandistic use of the incident, the deliberate casting of it in a false light.

But it wasn’t an “incident;” something that occured naturally. It was a managed, rehearsed, photo opportunity for propaganda purposes. That’s what politician’s do.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thekla:

But it wasn’t an “incident;” something that occured naturally. It was a managed, rehearsed, photo opportunity for propaganda purposes. That’s what politician’s do.

Kind of like John Kerry going pheasant hunting?

What’s your point?

That the President, in his capacity of Commander in Chief raised morale by flying onto a carrier returning from a wartime mission?

Tell us just how you think this incident reflects discredit on the President or the conduct of the war.

 

[Celia]

vern humphrey:

I said:

And you said;

What a cavalier way to dismiss the lives of American soldiers – especially after admitting that your own father was victimized that way.

Try being polite to the men and women who are in harm’s way for your sake.

I meant that I don’t buy that my comments are endangering the troops. I really don’t at this point. My father understood that people didn’t agree with the war in Vietnam. He didn’t understand why people treated him that way. I think you can disagree without being a jerk about it, you know? I would never treat a soldier that way. They are doing what they believe is right. I admire them very much. If you could ask me who I looked up to most in the world, it would be my brother, a Marine. He’s been in since 1998. I don’t dismiss their lives. That’s why I hate war…or anything that puts our soldiers in harm’s way. If anything ever happened to my brother, I don’t know what I would do. So, please know I would never purposefully endanger our soldiers. It is not my intention whatsoever to say or do anything against them. And truly, I don’t believe I am, or I wouldn’t say it. Just so you know.

I am very polite to our soldiers. Probably more than I would be to any other average joe.

 

[oat_soda]

I mean, let’s be consistent. If you’re going to claim that

Iraq is “Bush’s War,” then Hiroshima and Nagasaki were “Truman’s blunders,” Vietnam is “Johnson’s War” and abortion is the Democrat’s social “quagmire.” i never claimed it was bush’s war. i like bush and i voted for him. in fact, i stood outside a pro-kerry democratic headquarters in portland oregon with a home made bush chenney sign last summer. i didn’t support the war then and do not now. i support us bringing order and peace to iraq and finishing the job.

the bottom line is that john paul the great and our current pope both did not support the war. a preemptive war does not square with the just war doctrine outlined in the catechism. war is a punishment for sin. as long as we permit the holocaust of babies in this country, we will continue to be at war. our next president could very well send this country to its demise. i feel it’s almost too late now to turn back. this war is just a symptom of the evil present in our culture.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Celia:

I meant that I don’t buy that my comments are endangering the troops.

As a victim of this kind of nonsense, as a company commander who had to look into the faces of dead soldiers so he could honestly tell their parents and families he had positively identified them, as a man who returned home wounded to this kind of abuse, as the wife of a woman who was singled out and taunted – I asure you., you ARE endangering the troops.

Celia:

I really don’t at this point. My father understood that people didn’t agree with the war in Vietnam. He didn’t understand why people treated him that way. I think you can disagree without being a jerk about it, you know?

It is a long-accepted principle that when a mob of people engage in reckless and harmful action, all who are part of that mob are guilty - including those who merely stand by and egg the others on.

Celia:

I would never treat a soldier that way.

You are treating them that way – your cavalier refusal to accept the damage you do is proof of that.

Celia:

They are doing what they believe is right. I admire them very much. If you could ask me who I looked up to most in the world, it would be my brother, a Marine. He’s been in since 1998. I don’t dismiss their lives.

Yet you contribute to a climate in the US that is carefully monitored by our enemies. They are willing to keep killing Americans because they believe that people like you will carry the day, if they kill enough Americans.

Celia:

That’s why I hate war…or anything that puts our soldiers in harm’s way. If anything ever happened to my brother, I don’t know what I would do. So, please know I would never purposefully endanger our soldiers. It is not my intention whatsoever to say or do anything against them. And truly, I don’t believe I am, or I wouldn’t say it. Just so you know.

Yet you persist. Your efforts add in a small way to the cumulative effect that our enemies hope will result in a collapse of our political will. And that encourages them to keep killing Americans.

If ALL Americans spoke firmly, with one voice, and convinced the enemy that they cannot win, there would be far fewer Americans killed.

 

[Celia]

from kp1: Agree to disagree, but have some respect for those who do what you can or will not do./

I have nothing but the highest regard for our troops. Actually, Little side note, a close friend of mine since kindergarten - really, she’s one of my best friends - graduated from boot camp at Fort Leanord (sp?) Wood in MO last Friday. She’s really a girly-girl and the thought of her in army boots makes me smile. I’m very proud of her. But, nervous too, that she’ll get sent somewhere awful. So, saying my prayers for her and my brother now. Anyway, that was just a total brag for my friend. Sorry, back to the thread.

 

[vern_humphrey]

oat soda:

the bottom line is that john paul the great and our current pope both did not support the war. a preemptive war does not square with the just war doctrine outlined in the catechism. war is a punishment for sin. as long as we permit the holocaust of babies in this country, we will continue to be at war. our next president could very well send this country to its demise. i feel it’s almost too late now to turn back. this war is just a symptom of the evil present in our culture.

The bottom line is that John Paul the Great saw clearly what had happened in Iraq and insisted that Western troops need to stay in Iraq as long as is necessary in order to ensure the stability of the nation and freedom of the Iraqi people.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Celia:

from kp1: Agree to disagree, but have some respect for those who do what you can or will not do./

I have nothing but the highest regard for our troops. Actually, Little side note, a close friend of mine since kindergarten - really, she’s one of my best friends - graduated from boot camp at Fort Leanord (sp?) Wood in MO last Friday. She’s really a girly-girl and the thought of her in army boots makes me smile. I’m very proud of her. But, nervous too, that she’ll get sent somewhere awful. So, saying my prayers for her and my brother now. Anyway, that was just a total brag for my friend. Sorry, back to the thread.

While you’re at it, pray that the enemy are not encouraged to continue fighting and killing Americans in the hope that an anti-war movement in the US will ultimately grant them the victory.

 

[Celia]

vern humphrey:

As a victim of this kind of nonsense, as a company commander who had to look into the faces of dead soldiers so he could honestly tell their parents and families he had positively identified them, as a man who returned home wounded to this kind of abuse, as the wife of a woman who was singled out and taunted – I asure you., you ARE endangering the troops.

It is a long-accepted principle that when a mob of people engage in reckless and harmful action, all who are part of that mob are guilty - including those who merely stand by and egg the others on.

You are treating them that way – your cavalier refusal to accept the damage you do is proof of that.

Yet you contribute to a climate in the US that is carefully monitored by our enemies. They are willing to keep killing Americans because they believe that people like you will carry the day, if they kill enough Americans.

Yet you persist. Your efforts add in a small way to the cumulative effect that our enemies hope will result in a collapse of our political will. And that encourages them to keep killing Americans.

If ALL Americans spoke firmly, with one voice, and convinced the enemy that they cannot win, there would be far fewer Americans killed.

I’m sorry you had to go through an experience like that, vern. I really am. What an awful thing. My heart goes out to you. I hope you have a measure of peace now. In all honesty.

I think we’re going to keep butting heads no matter what. Well, I can promise you this now, if nothing else: I will think about what you have had to say. But right now, I disagree with you…and I really hope we can be on better terms on threads in the future. (maybe not on the " in the news" forum, though… )

 

[vern_humphrey]

Celia:

I’m sorry you had to go through an experience like that, vern. I really am. What an awful thing. My heart goes out to you. I hope you have a measure of peace now. In all honesty.

I think we’re going to keep butting heads no matter what. Well, I can promise you this now, if nothing else: I will think about what you have had to say. But right now, I disagree with you…and I really hope we can be on better terms on threads in the future. (maybe not on the " in the news" forum, though… )

Maybe we’re making headway.

Ask yourself this, what is the basis of your disagreement?

It cannot be experience – you’ve not been at war.

It cannot be authority – the people who have been at war tell you this sort of thing is harmful.

 

[Thekla]

Celia:

I meant that I don’t buy that my comments are endangering the troops.

They are not. It’s your duty as a citizen to speak out when you believe your government is doing wrong. Your opinion and beliefs are no less valid than any other citizens and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

I’m a German American and know well what can come of a bullied, propagandized, and ultimately out of control, citizenry. The reason for the nasty comments is that some are defending an indefensible position. Therefore, they resort to name-calling and nastiness in an effort to make people be quiet.

When we knowingly enable our government to profit from deceit we are failing in our duty as citizens.

 

[geezerbob]

Thekla:

They are not. It’s your duty as a citizen to speak out when you believe your government is doing wrong. Your opinion and beliefs are no less valid than any other citizens and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

I’m a German American and know well what can come of a bullied, propagandized, and ultimately out of control, citizenry. The reason for the nasty comments is that some are defending an indefensible position. Therefore, they resort to name-calling and nastiness in an effort to make people be quiet.

When we knowingly enable our government to profit from deceit we are failing in our duty as citizens.

When you first entered the forum, you started out stating your opinion as fact and have dodged or only partially answered questions that have been raised. I will ask again, at the risk of being called indifferent, stupid or lazy: What proof do you have that the administration has lied to us obout the major issues? Let’s keep it on the major ones because I see how you avoid issues by going off on tangents.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thekla:

They are not. It’s your duty as a citizen to speak out when you believe your government is doing wrong. Your opinion and beliefs are no less valid than any other citizens and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

You’re wrong. You’ve never had to live with the effects of this sort of nonsense. You’ve never had to look into the faces of dead soldiers, nor been wounded in action.

Thekla:

I’m a German American and know well what can come of a bullied, propagandized, and ultimately out of control, citizenry. The reason for the nasty comments is that some are defending an indefensible position. Therefore, they resort to name-calling and nastiness in an effort to make people be quiet.

How old were you during the Nazi era?

Were you a member of the anti-Nazi underground?

If you weren’t old enough to participate in the activities of the underground, then your claim that you have some special knowledge is false – youi’re going on what you have heard and read, not what you have experienced.

Thekla:

When we knowingly enable our government to profit from deceit we are failing in our duty as citizens.

When we knowingly make statements or perform acts which give the enemy leave to hope that if he drags the war out and kills enough Americans, our political will may fail, then we give aid and comfort to the enemy.

 

[Thekla]

You bet I know and in my family we were made amply aware of what silence and complicity can bring. My grandfathers and their brothers were not long in this country when they went to war; leaving one of their own beneath a white cross in Belgium. But they knew who they were fighting and why; some were family members left behind in Germany.

They say that many veterans don’t talk about their war experiences. Not in my family. The actions of the German people were very real and painful and my grandparents and parents made sure that their children and grandchildren understood the consequences.

 

[Stu]

“Speaking Out” is definitely everyone’s right as a citizen but I would ask all to consider what they and the manner in which they say it. Consider the following from LCDR Paul Galanti whose A-4 was shot down over North Vietnam spending nearly seven years in captivity.

The broadcast on Radio Vietnam by “Hanoi Hannah” was used to reinforce the message of his captors during torture sessions, said Galanti, 64, now retired in Richmond, Va. “We were not prisoners of war, we were ‘war criminals,’ they would say. ‘You are going to be tried, you will never go home.’”

Then came Hanoi Hannah introducing a clip from Kerry’s testimony.

“I couldn’t believe it, a Navy officer saying we were all war criminals, that we raped and pillaged the countryside like Genghis Khan,” said Galanti.

Quite simply, some forms of dissent go to far and are seen by the enemy as a sign of our weakness or worse yet used to play mind games against our own when being held captive (or hostage). Wouldn’t bolster my morale, that is for sure.

Well intentioned and even mannered dissent can be fine, especially during an election. Unfounded slogans of lying, deceit, corruption and cronyism serve no purpose but to feed the emotional needs of the immature. But at some point the elections are over, the decisions are made by those in charge and we all need to get on board.

I can assure you that a “President Kerry”, though not my personal choice for that office, would have this Naval Officer’s support as well as he would be my Commander-in-Chief. I might not like what he would want to do, but I would work hard to support his office and the Constitution. But I guess I am still just a “cheerleader”.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thekla:

You bet I know and in my family we were made amply aware of what silence and complicity can bring. My grandfathers and their brothers were not long in this country when they went to war; leaving one of their own beneath a white cross in Belgium. But they knew who they were fighting and why; some were family members left behind in Germany.

Ah, so you don’t know this from PERSONAL experience – but just from hearing about it and reading.

So how does that make you any more qualified than, say an Irish-American who also heard and read about it?

Thekla:

They say that many veterans don’t talk about their war experiences. Not in my family. The actions of the German people were very real and painful and my grandparents and parents made sure that their children and grandchildren understood the consequences.

And that makes you better than anyone else? That makes it okay for you to give aid and comfort to the current enemy, and to pretend the United States is morally equivallent to Nazi Germany?

 

[vern_humphrey]

“Speaking Out” is definitely everyone’s right as a citizen but I would ask all to consider what they and the manner in which they say it. Consider the following from LCDR Paul Galanti whose A-4 was shot down over North Vietnam spending nearly seven years in captivity.

Quite simply, some forms of dissent go to far and are seen by the enemy as a sign of our weakness or worse yet used to play mind games against our own when being held captive (or hostage). Wouldn’t bolster my morale, that is for sure.

Well intentioned and even mannered dissent can be fine, especially during an election. Unfounded slogans of lying, deceit, corruption and cronyism serve no purpose but to feed the emotional needs of the immature. But at some point the elections are over, the decisions are made by those in charge and we all need to get on board.

I can assure you that a “President Kerry”, though not my personal choice for that office, would have this Naval Officer’s support as well as he would be my Commander-in-Chief. I might not like what he would want to do, but I would work hard to support his office and the Constitution. But I guess I am still just a “cheerleader”.

Those of us who fought in Viet Nam, who were the victims of that sort of unfounded arrogant deceitful protest, have said that again and again. And we’re going to keep saying it.

We know the harm it does, and we are determined that THIS generation of American soldiers not be treated as our generation was.

 

[Thekla]

I never said I was more qualified or better than anyone else. Those are your words, not mine. Family is a very personal experience; our values are built upon faith and family. And if the Irish want to chime in about the Germans, no one is stopping them.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thekla:

I never said I was more qualified or better than anyone else. Those are your words, not mine.

But these are YOUR words;

I’m a German American and know well what can come of a bullied, propagandized, and ultimately out of control, citizenry.

Of what relevancy is your ethnic background? What was your motive is saying that?

You certainly imply that your ethnicity gives you some special warrant to address this question.

 

[Thekla]

Your query is put so attractively, how could I not respond?