As Casualties Mount, Bush Ignores Reality

[Thekla]

vern humphrey:

Of what relevancy is your ethnic background? What was your motive is saying that?

It’s not unlike the relevancy of my religious background. My motive is to address my belief that citizens have an obligation to dissent when they believe their government is doing wrong. We should not try to silence dissent, we should encourage it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thekla:

It’s not unlike the relevancy of my religious background.

So I was right. You DO claim that your ethnicity gives you some special insight that others don’t have. Despite the fact that all you know about the Nazi era is what you heard or read.

Which is exactly what the rest of us know about it.

Thekla:

My motive is to address my belief that citizens have an obligation to dissent when they believe their government is doing wrong. We should not try to silence dissent, we should encourage it.

Your motive is more sinister than that – you know the impact of your irresponsible claims and accusations. You know, because you have been told by men who have felt the impact of that sort of thing, that you encourage our enemies to kill more Americans.

As for silencing dissent – isn’t that what you’re doing, when you wrap yourself in freedom of speech (as if only YOU had that freedom) when we point out how reckless, irresponsible and self-serving your comments are?

 

[Adonis33]

Thir is nothing wroing with dissent. It is the mindless accusations with no proof thats the problem.

 

[speedy5]

dissent can and often does go too far. we do need a better plan in iraq though. we need more troops over there to sort that mess out. we need better inteligence, not cut backs on the things thay need. while i don’t particularly agree with how bush is managing the war, i do know we need to support the troops more than ever. we need a defense secretary that actually knows how to do his job. we need generals that are skilled (where’s stormin’ norman when we need him) instead of being skilled in getting that next star, or what their stock portfolio looks like. we need a president with war experience.

 

[lena]

Lives are lives, whether they are US soldiers or Iraqis. The fact that US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan has created another Israel/Palestine problem with suicidal bombs and attacks occurring much more frequently than post-US attack.

What has US liberated? More hatred!

 

[geezerbob]

lena:

Lives are lives, whether they are US soldiers or Iraqis. The fact that US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan has created another Israel/Palestine problem with suicidal bombs and attacks occurring much more frequently than post-US attack.

What has US liberated? More hatred!

There have been problems between Israel and it’s neighbors ever since the UN established it in the late forties. Please do not say that we caused that by what we did over fifty years later. The problems there are no better or worse than they have always been. With Arafat gone, there is a good chance things could get better, but there is no guarantee.

Since Afghanistan was actively and openly training terrorists to attack the US, what would have been your response to 9/11? Do nothing and let them keep blowing us up? If you look back over the last thirty or so years at the ever increasing attacks by the terrorists, surely you will realize that we had to do something to curb them. Rather than complaining about what we are doing, please offer us your suggestions about how to deal with the problem. BTW, flogging the US for possible past mistakes doesn’t count as a solution. We are having to deal with what we have to deal with.

 

[Lance]

The ‘Battle of the Bulge’ last about 30 days and the US lost about 30,000 men. That is a thousand a day just in one battle, if the country had been run by todays liberals in WW II we would have pulled up stakes and come home and left Europe to the Nazis. In today’s climate Ike would have been court marshaled and run out of the military for the way he ran ETO.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

walstan:

So, the ones Saddam killed count, but the ones we killed didn’t?

They both count. The point is that when Saddam and his boys were on their killing spree, the latte set was silent. Presumably there was a presumption that dead Iraqis don’t count but dead Americans do count. That was a presumption made by the latte set and the Europress, not the American military establishment, nor by the Republicans.

If the latte set really walked its talk, then the military wouldn’t have to go into other countries in an attempt to stabilize unstable zones. What has happened in Iraq is the same thing that happened in Rwanda: an ignorance-is-bliss mentality coupled with a decision that if folks aren’t having lattes with you then they just don’t count.

Yall bellowed UN! UN! France and Russia violated the UN resolution concerning Iraq. This resulted in zero incentive for Saddam to stop bullying his own people and everyone around him. Where was your self-righteous bellowing then? It didn’t exist. Why did it not exist? Why do you excuse illegal behaviour on the part of France and Russia which resulted in widespread human misery while in the same breath you condemn your own nation’s participation in a Just War?

Because it isn’t about reason. It isn’t even about principle. It is about comfort. What misguided soul persuaded you that life is about comfort? The price of your freedom is eternal vigilance. Just like the rest of us. The latte set is not special.

 

[mike182d]

oat soda:

i never claimed it was bush’s war. i like bush and i voted for him. in fact, i stood outside a pro-kerry democratic headquarters in portland oregon with a home made bush chenney sign last summer. i didn’t support the war then and do not now. i support us bringing order and peace to iraq and finishing the job.

the bottom line is that john paul the great and our current pope both did not support the war. a preemptive war does not square with the just war doctrine outlined in the catechism. war is a punishment for sin. as long as we permit the holocaust of babies in this country, we will continue to be at war. our next president could very well send this country to its demise. i feel it’s almost too late now to turn back. this war is just a symptom of the evil present in our culture.

While Pope John Paul II was a brilliant and holy man, not every theologian is perfect. He never proclaimed the war in Iraq unjust, and thus we may dissent from his viewpoint if we do so for legitimate reasons - and there are certainly legitimate reasons for dissenting from his opinion, and that of the American bishops. So-called “pre-emptive” war is not inherently unjust as not every war needs to be defensive. The Church fathers and the Church’s greatest theologians agree on this point.

The problem is that the current position of the bishops on war over the past 50 years contradicts 1900 years of solid Catholic teaching and theology on the matter. Catholic teaching never changes, it become more refined, and that is the true problem with current just war theology and so I am highly suspicious and must disagree with their opinion.

I highly recommend the following:
firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0501/articles/johnson.htm

While I’m pleased to hear you fought against Kerry in the election , one statement of yours confuses me:

i didn’t support the war then and do not now. i support us bringing order and peace to iraq and finishing the job.

How can you support order and peace in Iraq without supporting the war for the Iraqi’s liberation? From my understanding, the U.N. tried for years to peacefully resolve the situation and it only got worse; Saddam become more powerful, more corrupt, and even wealthier at the hands of the U.N.

 

[Stu]

speedy5:

i do know we need to support the troops more than ever. we need a defense secretary that actually knows how to do his job. we need generals that are skilled (where’s stormin’ norman when we need him) instead of being skilled in getting that next star, or what their stock portfolio looks like. we need a president with war experience.

You started off okay but somehow found yourself back into realm of ad hominem. Most of us in uniform love Secretary Rumsfeld. Sure some of the senior leadership get worked by his style but that is because he is forcing the military, traditionally an organization that at times becomes set in its ways, to think about things a bit differently. Much needed in this day and age if you ask me.

I am interested in which senior officers you know that are “skilled in getting that next star, or what their stock portfolio looks like” rather than doing their job. Please list names. I will be glad to discuss.

President’s don’t need war experience. That is why they have Generals and Admirals. Lincoln had some. Wilson had none. Roosevelt had none. Kennedy and LBJ had some (whoops bad example.) And then I will give you Bush senior did have war experience. But all in all, not necessary for the job. But if we want to make that the standard then I guess I would be open to it. Still leaves me eligible.

 

[leaner]

Stu:

You started off okay but somehow found yourself back into realm of ad hominem. Most of us in uniform love Secretary Rumsfeld. Sure some of the senior leadership get worked by his style but that is because he is forcing the military, traditionally an organization that at times becomes set in its ways, to think about things a bit differently. Much needed in this day and age if you ask me.

I am interested in which senior officers you know that are “skilled in getting that next star, or what their stock portfolio looks like” rather than doing their job. Please list names. I will be glad to discuss.

President’s don’t need war experience. That is why they have Generals and Admirals. Lincoln had some. Wilson had none. Roosevelt had none. Kennedy and LBJ had some (whoops bad example.) And then I will give you Bush senior did have war experience. But all in all, not necessary for the job. But if we want to make that the standard then I guess I would be open to it. Still leaves me eligible.

Hey Stu – Clinton didn’t have any war experience, now did he?? Must be why he fired some firecrackers in that direction after the embassy attacks…, and we wonder how Iraq went even further down the loo while he was in office…(when you’re not afraid of consequences, you tend to push the envelope more, no?)

 

[geezerbob]

leaner:

Hey Stu – Clinton didn’t have any war experience, now did he?? Must be why he fired some firecrackers in that direction after the embassy attacks…, and we wonder how Iraq went even further down the loo while he was in office…(when you’re not afraid of consequences, you tend to push the envelope more, no?)

Makes you wonder if 9/11 would have ever happened if we had responded appropriately to the first WTC bombing, the USS Cole bombing or the embassy bombings. All of the critics need to pull their heads out of the sand and see how doing nothing breeds contempt for us and more attacks. I think we were more than patient (or apathetic or spineless - pick your own word) in our early dealings with these misguided jerks.

 

[HagiaSophia]

lena:

What has US liberated? More hatred!

The truth is they hated you before 9/11, they hate you now and they will continue to do so. And as for what we have liberated – you obviously haven’t talked to or read what a large number of Iraqi’s think about it – nor the Afghans either I take it.

 

[Stu]

geezerbob:

Makes you wonder if 9/11 would have ever happened if we had responded appropriately to the first WTC bombing, the USS Cole bombing or the embassy bombings. All of the critics need to pull their heads out of the sand and see how doing nothing breeds contempt for us and more attacks. I think we were more than patient (or apathetic or spineless - pick your own word) in our early dealings with these misguided jerks.

I do wish President Clinton had responded to the attack on USS COLE differently. Many of us in the Navy saw it as an act of war vice a criminal act which is how the Clinton administration characterized it. For whatever reason, President Clinton seemed reluctant to put “boots on the ground” when acting militarily. I suspect he was guided by his thoughts on Vietnam and wanted to avoid a protracted land engagement. I think however he took away the wrong lesson from the Vietnam war which in my humble opinion was if you are going to fight then do it like you mean it and do it till you win. Anything else just stirs up a hornets nest.

Thankfully my current Comander-in-Chief sees it differently.

 

[vern_humphrey]

geezerbob:

Makes you wonder if 9/11 would have ever happened if we had responded appropriately to the first WTC bombing, the USS Cole bombing or the embassy bombings. All of the critics need to pull their heads out of the sand and see how doing nothing breeds contempt for us and more attacks. I think we were more than patient (or apathetic or spineless - pick your own word) in our early dealings with these misguided jerks.

We TAUGHT them they could attack us. There was a decade of attacks on us – from the first WTC bombing, to Somolia (where Al Qaeda was involved) to the USS Cole to the Embassies. Bin Laden himself said that after the Embassy bombings he knew he could do anything he wanted.

 

[geezerbob]

vern humphrey:

We TAUGHT them they could attack us. There was a decade of attacks on us – from the first WTC bombing, to Somolia (where Al Qaeda was involved) to the USS Cole to the Embassies. Bin Laden himself said that after the Embassy bombings he knew he could do anything he wanted.

My point exactly. To bad the “Bush is a liar” crowd can’t or won’t face up to that. I guess they would rather bow toward Mecca five times a day.

 

[HagiaSophia]

My point exactly. To bad the “Bush is a liar” crowd can’t or won’t face up to that. I guess they would rather bow toward Mecca five times a day.

Actually they can’t lose - it’s armchair quarterbcking at its best. If he did nothing, they would be reminding the American people that a couple of thousand Americans died in NY and he did nothing. If he does something, no matter what it is, he made the wrong choice. They sip the latte, check the stock reports, ride in the SUV’s and cry all the way to the bank. It’s right out of Genesis, where else do you read of people living in the Garden of Eden, with the best that life can offer, but they gotta challenge everything.

 

[vern_humphrey]

HagiaSophia:

Actually they can’t lose - it’s armchair quarterbcking at its best. If he did nothing, they would be reminding the American people that a couple of thousand Americans died in NY and he did nothing. If he does something, no matter what it is, he made the wrong choice. They sip the latte, check the stock reports, ride in the SUV’s and cry all the way to the bank. It’s right out of Genesis, where else do you read of people living in the Garden of Eden, with the best that life can offer, but they gotta challenge everything.

And if it kills American soldiers, who cares? After all, “They volunteered, didn’t they?” thehighroad.org/images/smilies/barf.gif

 

[Thekla]

vern humphrey:

Your motive is more sinister than that – you know the impact of your irresponsible claims and accusations. You know, because you have been told by men who have felt the impact of that sort of thing, that you encourage our enemies to kill more Americans.

As for silencing dissent – isn’t that what you’re doing, when you wrap yourself in freedom of speech (as if only YOU had that freedom) when we point out how reckless, irresponsible and self-serving your comments are?

Considering that I believe our government failed to protect the nation on 9/11, failed to tell the truth about a war with Iraq, failed to adequately plan for the occupation, and failed to adequately care for the military and returning veterans, etc., I don’t believe that mine are the hands covered in blood.

If someone’s hands are soaked in blood, they belong to the deceitful members of our government and those who have willfully enabled them. Many have only to look in their own mirrors.

I do believe in the honor of dissent from the mainstream, government line and rarely am interested in stifling it. As for wrapping myself in freedom of speech, go ahead and yak away; I won’t try to stop you.

 

[gnjsdad]

Oh, is this funny… So Iraq War opponents…

HagiaSophia:

They sip the latte,

Personally, I’ve never tried latte.

HagiaSophia:

check the stock reports,

I must admit, I’ve never been good at picking stocks

HagiaSophia:

ride in the SUV’s

OK You got me there. I do happen to own an SUV (an old one, though)

HagiaSophia:

and cry all the way to the bank.

I do cry all the way to the bank… when I see how fast my money leaves it.

If you think the only people opposed to the war are rich liberals, you are sadly misinformed.