As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’

[Sy_Noe]

For those saying this isn’t calling them to repentance and so on, you don’t attract people by being instantly negative about their very self.

Even John Harvey, the founder of a Courage, said in a book that he heard a confession by a gay man. And during that confession the gay man said ‘you’re the first priest who hasn’t made me feel like a piece of s***.’ Keep that in mind.

This brings to my mind the saying that “you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

There is nothing alarming in the description of their ministry to gay people. Read it for yourselves. The other parish that sponsored this event is similar. They must be in an area with many gay people and they are trying to witness to them. Good for them! We are called to witness to everyone.

I still didn’t find anything that says that people were offered the Eucharist. Honestly, the average NYT reporter is not going to know the difference between a mass and a prayer service.

churchofthesacredheart.net/ministry_gl.html

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I still didn’t find anything that says that people were offered the Eucharist. Honestly, the average NYT reporter is not going to know the difference between a mass and a prayer service.
]

It really was an event that included the Mass. Every single report says Mass happened. The invitation to attend announced that Mass would happen.

An LGBT Pilgrimage and Mass to the Cathedral Basilica of the Sacred Heart in Newark, New Jersey. According to a flyer for the event, the Pilgrimage and Mass are taking place: “With the blessings and best wishes of His Eminence Joseph Cardinal Tobin, C.Ss.R., Archbishop of Newark …”

Mass will be offered by Rev. Francis Gargani, C.Ss.R. Gargani frequently offers retreats to LGBT Catholics, one of which was advertised by the gay-affirmative Open Hearts GLBT Ministry located at St. Patrick – St. Anthony Church in Hartford, Connecticut. The Open Hearts group recently read a book which celebrated the “Queer Christ.” According to a description for the retreat:

Through ritual prayer, reflective (name removed by moderator)ut sessions, shared discussion, personal time for prayer and quiet, and social gatherings, this retreat offers a special opportunity for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender persons to celebrate their identity and deepen their experience of community in the living God.

angelqueen.org/2017/04/20/new-jersey-cardinal-welcomes-gay-activists-to-his-cathedral/

 

[GEddie]

Yet there’s no way to know who in a normal communion line hasn’t repented of his or her sins.

Of course not.

But the sin should be a matter of personal conscience, not of general welcome.

Our LORD never said, “Come to Me and continue enjoying your sins.”

ICXC NIKA

 

[Peter_J]

Of course not.

But the sin should be a matter of personal conscience, not of general welcome.

**Our LORD never said, “Come to Me and continue enjoying your sins.”
**
ICXC NIKA

Indeed. And I’m going to assume that Cardinal Tobin did not say that either.

I think Catholic Farmer is right, the alarm over the Cardinal’s actions is baseless.

 

[Peter_J]

It really was an event that included the Mass. Every single report says Mass happened. The invitation to attend announced that Mass would happen.

angelqueen.org/2017/04/20/new-jersey-cardinal-welcomes-gay-activists-to-his-cathedral/

I’m not really surprised that people on AngelQueen, TLDM, etc. are complaining that there was a mass. Just like if there hadn’t been a mass, then I wouldn’t be surprised to hear the same people complain about that.

 

[JimG]

Understanding the subtext of LGBTQ welcome.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Our LORD never said, “Come to Me and continue enjoying your sins.”

No, but when he went into the homes of tax collectors and lepers and those who were marginalized, he ate and drank with them. He cared for them and loved them. He didn’t say, ‘Before you have a single morsel of bread, you have to repent and stop doing what you’re doing.’

I do think we have it backwards, based on how Jesus went to the people. He sat at the table first, gave them nourishing food and drink, and then spoke to them of healing and God’s love.

I go back and forth on this all the time. If you were Jewish during the Temple era (as was Jesus and most of the people he encountered), you had to purify yourself before going into the Temple. Or you brought your sacrifices to the altar after confessing your misdeed and making restitution.

But Jesus did things differently. He brought the message of hope and forgiveness to the world. He didn’t ask for purification first. He connected with those who needed to hear his words first.

 

[Sy_Noe]

No, but when he went into the homes of tax collectors and lepers and those who were marginalized, he ate and drank with them. He cared for them and loved them. He didn’t say, ‘Before you have a single morsel of bread, you have to repent and stop doing what you’re doing.’

I do think we have it backwards, based on how Jesus went to the people. He sat at the table first, gave them nourishing food and drink, and then spoke to them of healing and God’s love.

I go back and forth on this all the time. If you were Jewish during the Temple era (as was Jesus and most of the people he encountered), you had to purify yourself before going into the Temple. Or you brought your sacrifices to the altar after confessing your misdeed and making restitution.

But Jesus did things differently. He brought the message of hope and forgiveness to the world. He didn’t ask for purification first. He connected with those who needed to hear his words first.

So beautifully said. Amen.

 

[StudentMI]

Understanding the subtext of LGBTQ welcome.

Sorry to say, that entire article reads like a ‘we’ll be welcoming on our terms’ screed that ignores the issue of actually approaching and welcoming people.

I hate to be blunt, but it’s time the Church laity admit they’re never going to save souls and convert people by talking down to them and telling them their desires are evil. Never gonna happen. And sad to say, you will have to answer to God himself on Judgment Day.

 

[EIF5A]

No, but when he went into the homes of tax collectors and lepers and those who were marginalized, he ate and drank with them. He cared for them and loved them. He didn’t say, ‘Before you have a single morsel of bread, you have to repent and stop doing what you’re doing.’

I do think we have it backwards, based on how Jesus went to the people. He sat at the table first, gave them nourishing food and drink, and then spoke to them of healing and God’s love.

I go back and forth on this all the time. If you were Jewish during the Temple era (as was Jesus and most of the people he encountered), you had to purify yourself before going into the Temple. Or you brought your sacrifices to the altar after confessing your misdeed and making restitution.

But Jesus did things differently. He brought the message of hope and forgiveness to the world. He didn’t ask for purification first. He connected with those who needed to hear his words first.

One small difference is tax collectors and prostitutes probably knew they were sinning — Jesus didn’t have to tell them they were in sin.

But these days, the worldly message is “God ‘created’ me gay so I will live in the lifestyle”. The liberal movement does not want to even consider that homosexual behavior is a sin.

The mindset is, “I will do xyz, and I am not sinning because I was born this way, God doesn’t make mistakes, etc. If you disagree, you are a bigot and homophobe.”

If some parishes, pastors, etc remain ambiguous and do not address this underlying error, it will only prolong the error, and perhaps even worse, give off the impression that the Church tacitly condones the behavior and/or will slowly change her teaching.

Jesus told them/us, “Go and sin no more.”

Does the welcoming message include that last part about giving up sin?

Added: Perhaps it will at least given an opportunity to explain the Catholic stance about sexuality and how being gay is not sin and not a fault counted against them, even though the desire is disordered. But so is heterosexual lust. And anger, greed, jealousy, road rage. If we can get across the message that we are all disordered to one extent or another, perhaps we can dispel the myth that Catholics marginalize gays and lesbians because they are intrinsically evil (which is also a prevailing myth).

 

[Peter_J]

I hate to be blunt, but it’s time the Church laity admit they’re never going to save souls and convert people by talking down to them and telling them their desires are evil.

I’m not encouraging talking down to people, but I think it needs to be said that another part of the problem there is that people hear “homosexual sex is wrong” and forget that we also say that fornication, masturbation, and contraception are wrong.

 

[reggieM]

I hate to be blunt, but it’s time the Church laity admit they’re never going to save souls and convert people by talking down to them and telling them their desires are evil.

What if their desires are evil? Nobody is ever going to tell them that? Or apparently you’re saying that the desire for illicit sexual union is not evil? Not sure where you’re going with that.

I don’t see why telling a simple truth is a matter of “talking down”. In fact, hiding the truth for fear that the person can’t handle it is more of an insult to the person’s intelligence and integrity. It is manipulative.

If we have to conceal our belief so that the person never needs to change - are they really being converted?

Never gonna happen. And sad to say, you will have to answer to God himself on Judgment Day.

I think you’re coming across as quite harsh and judgemental yourself. Catholics have the right and responsibility to proclaim the Gospel. And I don’t think you’re correct to say that we’re never going to convert people - we see converts frequently.
And we have the duty to teach. God does the converting after that.

I’m reminded of St. Stephen the martyr in the book of Acts. He said this to the Jews:

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Of course, they didn’t like this very much:

When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.

And he had to pay the consequences.

And it may also be true that he didn’t convert any of the people who killed him. But God knew that and still called Stephen to preach the truth.

 

[StudentMI]

I’m not encouraging talking down to people, but I think it needs to be said that another part of the problem there is that people hear “homosexual sex is wrong” and forget that we also say that fornication, masturbation, and contraception are wrong.

Amen that they are wrong. But the focus is put on homosexuals. I’ve never seen preaching that same sex acts are sinful include pan-sexual activity that is sinful in person, only in articles on the internet. Even then, most of the latter goes to lengths to paint same sex acts as a special class of deviancy. Not to going to win souls by saying ‘everyone sins, but you people are especially sinful.’

 

[JimG]

Sorry to say, that entire article reads like a ‘we’ll be welcoming on our terms’ screed that ignores the issue of actually approaching and welcoming people.

I hate to be blunt, but it’s time the Church laity admit they’re never going to save souls and convert people by talking down to them and telling them their desires are evil. Never gonna happen. And sad to say, you will have to answer to God himself on Judgment Day.

From the article:

There seem to be only three choices a person with same-sex attraction can make regarding how they may be welcomed in their own local parish, in real, concrete circumstances:

1—A person can choose to enter a parish community as a person and not as a “straight person” or “gay person” or “transgender person,” etc. That is, one can actually choose not to reveal anything about their sexual thoughts, feelings, and attractions to their parish. Audible gasps of shock notwithstanding, this is actually how the vast majority of Catholics join parishes and are welcomed.

2—A person can choose to enter a parish community as a person while also reaching out privately to pastoral staff to ask about resources and support for living with same-sex attraction. This person will be welcomed into the parish just like everyone else, but will have the added support and welcome of, God willing, a local Courage apostolate chapter that can provide even more welcome and support, specific to carrying the crosses of same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria, and associated chastity challenges.

3—A person can first “come out” as “LGBTQIAPK”—or, if you prefer, “LGBTTQQIAAP.” You might wish to look this up after finishing this article, in case the preferred acronym changed while you were reading. Then, whether you’re already in a parish or want to enter one, you can ensure that as many people as possible know you are “out” and assess whether you are being welcomed unreservedly anyway, just like those who make the first two choices.

But here’s the thing—people who make the third choice are not really asking a parish to welcome just them. They are looking for a parish to welcome their “out-ness” as well. If there is any resistance to welcoming their false sexual identity (remember: the Church teaches there are only two true sexual identities—man and woman), that resistance will be counted as UN-welcoming.

 

[JimG]

I’m not encouraging talking down to people, but I think it needs to be said that another part of the problem there is that people hear “homosexual sex is wrong” and forget that we also say that fornication, masturbation, and contraception are wrong.

Yes, I have heard homilies that tell me a lot of my desires are evil and not to act on them. Probably should have heard more, but homilists have taken a turn the other way.

 

[StudentMI]

What if their desires are evil? Nobody is ever going to tell them that? Or apparently you’re saying that the desire for illicit sexual union is not evil? Not sure where you’re going with that.

Where did I address the sinful nature of same sex activity? Nowhere.

And furthermore, our desires are not evil in and of themselves. They are neutral. See the following.

ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo14.htm

Your comments about ‘we have the duty to teach. God does the converting.’ So you can tell people things that would never inspire them to seek the truth and disclaim responsibility by saying it’s God who does the converting? You are hardening their hearts. You aren’t doing anything to inspire them to seek God, you’re just fulfilling what you believe is your desire to claim you follow Jesus. That does nothing to inspire others to do the same. So what is the point?

 

[StudentMI]

From the article:

Yeah I read the article thanks. My point stands.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Where did I address the sinful nature of same sex activity? Nowhere.

And furthermore, our desires are not evil in and of themselves. They are neutral. See the following.

ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo14.htm

Your comments about ‘we have the duty to teach. God does the converting.’ So you can tell people things that would never inspire them to seek the truth and disclaim responsibility by saying it’s God who does the converting? You are hardening their hearts. You aren’t doing anything to inspire them to seek God, you’re just fulfilling what you believe is your desire to claim you follow Jesus. That does nothing to inspire others to do the same. So what is the point?

OK. So exactly how do you go about inspiring people to seek the truth?

I mean, really. I’m interested. You know there are a lot of people out there, even people like you and like me, and we can get caught up in doing wrong things. Like, say, drinking. There is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation, but suppose your friend starts drinking more than you, then a LOT more than you. And sometimes he breaks things, gets into fights, misses a class or two, even sometimes tries to force himself on women. How do you inspire him to learn that he is drinking too much? Remember, he is with other people who drink as much as he does, and some who drink more, and you’re all young you know and it’s funny and cool and nothing bad ever has happened (yet).

Tell me how you go about inspiring him to seek the truth about drinking?

 

[Peter_J]

Amen that they are wrong. But the focus is put on homosexuals.

Indeed.

I’m not old enough to remember the 50s or even the 60s and 70s but I remember well when the Supreme Court decriminalized homosexual sex in 2003(?). Specifically, I remember realizing for the first time that I didn’t exactly see eye to eye with my Evangelical Protestant friends on the matter, inasmuch as they believed very specifically that the law should be against just homosexual sodomy and not heterosexual sodomy. (As I recall, I didn’t even ask them why there was not also a law against premarital sex between a man and a woman.)

Not meaning to be triumphalistic, but I thank God I’m a Catholic.