As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’

[Peter_J]

While I know none of this changes things across the whole body of Catholicism, thank you for sharing this story, ComplineSanFran. Had you not shared this news, many of us might never have heard about it. I have similar thoughts especially that some in the group were married under the law of the land to their same sex partners and the cardinal still welcomed all to the table to receive Jesus with no questions asked. As someone whom the Catholic Church would not welcome to come as I am to Jesus and commune, I can imagine the joy this must have brought to those in attendance. I also found Fr Martin’s words, “Pretty much everyone’s lifestyle is sinful. Unless the Blessed Mother shows up in the communion line, there is no one sinless in our church”, interesting to see.

We’re all sinners, I don’t believe that is the issue.

It’s one thing to admit someone (homosexual or heterosexual) to communion with “no questions asked”, trusting them to discern whether they should be receiving or not; but if a couple reveals that they are in an invalid “marriage” (whether because they’re both men or both women, or because one of them previously got divorced without an annulment) then it really can’t be “no questions asked” – they’ve already answered the key question.

 

[Peter_J]

Well, Josh, that is kind of a moot point since Sy Noe doesn’t have the capability or the authority to change anything in the Church.

Sad isn’t it how participating anonymously on an internet forum doesn’t give us very much authority in the Church? The local priest won’t even kiss my ring.

But on a positive note, I’m reminded of an enjoyable LutheranSatire video.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

I think a lot of assumptions are being made and that has caused unnecessary dismay…

First of all, the event was a pilgrimage to a Catholic church, which included a tour and a reception. A lot of assumptions and rumors have been all over the media. Would you believe that they got this wrong? I did not see anything about a mass. There is nothing I have seen but rumors and speculation regarding the Eucharist being offered.

The reaction from the gay community was about just entering a Catholic church, which is important to understand because it tells us how far away many of these folks are from even coming into a church. It was a way to open up communication betweens two groups that feel opposed. It was scheduled to coincide with gay pride events in the area. A special invitation to a group of people that would never otherwise set foot in Church? Great idea! Let them come and feel welcome. Let them hear His voice calling them.

If anyone is sincerely touched by this encounter and wishes to come back to the Church, I’m sure they will be directed to the adult education/RCIA folks to learn about the Church (or re-learn, if they were raised Catholic). Only when you hear and answer God’s call, can you respond. For these people, many have not heard his call, or assumed (wrongly) that they must be excluded. Yes, they have a road to travel to be in full communion. That same road is for divorced and remarried folks, and many others who have forgotten what is asked of us by God. I hope some have the Courage to take that road (capitalization is on purpose).

Please do not be so quick to assume the worst of priests and cardinals. To call them heretics on the word of the media? That would mean you have more faith in reporters than you do in your own clergy.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The reaction from the gay community was about just entering a Catholic church, which is important to understand because it tells us how far away many of these folks are from even coming into a church. It was a way to open up communication between two groups that feel opposed. It was scheduled to coincide with gay pride events in the area. A special invitation to a group of people that would never otherwise set foot in Church? Great idea! Let them come and feel welcome.

I honestly can’t say I’d blame someone from feeling unwelcomed and being far away from even coming into a church when the message they so often hear from that church or its adherents is their inclination is disordered and their acts intrinsically so. That’s where and why Cardinal Tobin’s welcome to a group of God’s children should receive at least some credit.

 

[EIF5A]

I honestly can’t say I’d blame someone from feeling unwelcomed and being far away from even coming into a church when the message they so often hear from that church or its adherents is their inclination is disordered and their acts intrinsically so.

That is the truth.

As a gay person, I have to accept that and follow the decrees of God, not human ideology.

The Gospel was, is, and will be about repentance and conversion towards holiness, not accommodating the latest fad.

EVERY human being has some sort of disorder or inclination to sin — the gay lobby likes to pretend the Church “hates” gays and lesbians in a unique manner.

Gays are not special. We have disorders like everyone else.

We all depend on divine grace to overcome our frailties and weaknesses, whatever they are.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I think a lot of assumptions are being made and that has caused unnecessary dismay…

First of all, the event was a pilgrimage to a Catholic church, which included a tour and a reception. A lot of assumptions and rumors have been all over the media. Would you believe that they got this wrong? I did not see anything about a mass. There is nothing I have seen but rumors and speculation regarding the Eucharist being offered. .

It was a Mass. To quote the NYTimes:

But Cardinal Tobin’s welcome to Mass on May 21 has been the most significant of such recent gestures, because of the symbolism of a cardinal welcoming a group of gay Catholics, some of whom were married to same-sex spouses, to participate in the Sacrament of Holy Communion at the center of a cathedral, no questions asked.

The “L.G.B.T. pilgrimage” was organized by gay ministries within the Church of the Sacred Heart in South Plainfield, N.J., and the Church of the Precious Blood in Monmouth Beach, N.J. It stemmed from a conversation between David Harvie, of the South Plainfield parish group, and the Rev. Francis Gargani, a Brooklyn priest who, like Cardinal Tobin, belongs to the Redemptorist order, and took the idea to him.

Though Cardinal Tobin left soon after greeting the Mass attendees, citing a previous engagement, eight priests concelebrated it with Father Gargani. The group was also welcomed by the rector of the cathedral, Bishop Manuel Cruz, who told the people that the cathedral doors were always open to them “because we are children of God and our identity is that we all belong to him.”

Many of those in attendance were moved to tears.

 

[Peter_J]

EVERY human being has some sort of disorder or inclination to sin — the gay lobby likes to pretend the Church “hates” gays and lesbians in a unique manner.

Just so.

In the past almost year, I’ve really come to appreciate just how much need there is to fight against that lie.

 

[Peter_J]

It was a Mass. To quote the NYTimes:

But Cardinal Tobin’s welcome to Mass on May 21 has been the most significant of such recent gestures, because of the symbolism of a cardinal welcoming a group of gay Catholics, some of whom were married to same-sex spouses, to participate in the Sacrament of Holy Communion at the center of a cathedral, no questions asked.

Not meaning to beat a dead horse, but I still think this is a bit misleading. “No questions asked” (if we want to call it that) is standard, but what you quoted makes it sounds like it was actually a special offer being made by the Cardinal – a “free pass”, as it were, to gay Catholics – when in reality it is no different for homosexual persons than it is for heterosexual persons.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Not meaning to beat a dead horse, but I still think this is a bit misleading. “No questions asked” (if we want to call it that) is standard, but what you quoted makes it sounds like it was actually a special offer being made by the Cardinal – a “free pass”, as it were, to gay Catholics – when in reality it is no different for homosexual persons than it is for heterosexual persons.

Well sure it is standard enough not to ask questions. Even I could approach Jesus and though I personally believe he would receive me with no questions asked as he stated in Jn 6 he would turn no one away and he even touched a man with leprosy, I still nonetheless know I am considered unworthy and unwelcomed to do so in a Catholic church to come to the table as I am with what warts the Catholic church perceives me to have.

 

[Peter_J]

… I still nonetheless know I am unwelcomed to do so in a Catholic church to come to the table as I am with what warts the Catholic church perceives me to have.

Well, that’s one way of putting it. The Church sets out guidelines for receiving communion, but there’s no inquisitor to confront a person on the way to communion – it’s up to the individual to follow the guidelines (regardless of his or her sexual orientation). Which is another way of explaining why I think the “no questions asked” in the article was misleading.

I don’t think there would have been any reason for the Cardinal to do anything extraordinary if it weren’t for the fact that the Catholic Church’s attitude toward homosexual persons has been badly caricatured. No thanks to Breitbart News et al.

 

[Wedge_Antilles]

Yet there’s no way to know who in a normal communion line hasn’t repented of his or her sins.

But Tobin, unsurprisingly, didn’t even call them to repentance. He simply asked people to receive Christ regardless of their situation. How does that help them at all?

And what other times can we receive when potentially not in a state of grace?

I am sure Bishop Tobin’s masses for men who enjoy pornography and women listed on Ashley Madison will be coming soon.

 

[EIF5A]

But Tobin, unsurprisingly, didn’t even call them to repentance. He simply asked people to receive Christ regardless of their situation. How does that help them at all?

And what other times can we receive when potentially not in a state of grace?

I am sure Bishop Tobin’s masses for men who enjoy pornography and women listed on Ashley Madison will be coming soon.

It’s what’s NOT said that seems to speak the most these days…

 

[Wedge_Antilles]

Thank you for these words. Do you think that when people such as Cardinal Tobin open the doors (and the Table) to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, it sets a precedence, regardless of teaching? Perhaps next time, Cardinal Cupich will do something similar in Chicago? And then San Diego, and then who knows? Sometimes the law lags behind what is happening in the pews and in our communities.

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe this will lead to a number of Catholics abandoning their sinful lives in favor or repentance and truly seeking to live as Christ?

If the answer is yes, then you will likely find support for this sort of thing by the likes of Tobin. If it is no, then most people on here will question what was the point?

 

[Sy_Noe]

But Tobin, unsurprisingly, didn’t even call them to repentance. He simply asked people to receive Christ regardless of their situation. How does that help them at all?

And what other times can we receive when potentially not in a state of grace?

I am sure Bishop Tobin’s masses for men who enjoy pornography and women listed on Ashley Madison will be coming soon.

Christ received the leper regardless of his situation. And I’d say the leper was helped a great deal by Jesus receiving and touching him.

 

[StudentMI]

For those saying this isn’t calling them to repentance and so on, you don’t attract people by being instantly negative about their very self.

Even John Harvey, the founder of a Courage, said in a book that he heard a confession by a gay man. And during that confession the gay man said ‘you’re the first priest who hasn’t made me feel like a piece of s***.’ Keep that in mind.

 

[EIF5A]

Christ received the leper regardless of his situation. And I’d say the leper was helped a great deal by Jesus receiving and touching him.

He healed lepers. He warned/commanded to sin no more.

He did not excuse sin.

 

[qui_est_ce]

From the article:

“He brought Francis to us,” said Thomas M. Smith, 66, a deacon who serves the deaf community at the Newark cathedral. “I’ve been waiting 25 years for this. I’m a deacon in the church, and I’ve had to be careful. And afraid.”

He’s supposed to bring us closer to Jesus.

He teared up, remembering how his parents had died thinking he would go to hell if he found someone to love. “This is amazing to me,” he said.

Love does not express itself in sin.

 

[Wedge_Antilles]

Christ received the leper regardless of his situation. And I’d say the leper was helped a great deal by Jesus receiving and touching him.

And the if Christ had broken bread with His disciples, founded the Church on Peter, and imbued the early leaders of the Church with the power of the Holy Spirit, that would be relevant.

Bishop Tobin and others should invite anyone struggling with sin to attend Mass. He should not encourage them to profane the Lord by receiving unrepentant.

And that goes doubly for those of us who know better, believe me. I am not exempting myself.

 

[Wedge_Antilles]

For those saying this isn’t calling them to repentance and so on, you don’t attract people by being instantly negative about their very self.

Even John Harvey, the founder of a Courage, said in a book that he heard a confession by a gay man. And during that confession the gay man said ‘you’re the first priest who hasn’t made me feel like a piece of s***.’ Keep that in mind.

I agree, and I was under the impression from this topic that he encouraged anyone to receive communion, while the article was more murky (I admittedly read quickly at work). So which was it?

I agree with you if it was the latter; not at all on the former.

 

[Peter_J]

For those saying this isn’t calling them to repentance and so on

I haven’t talked to many people about this, but I’m guessing that a lot of Catholics would have liked him to have given a call for repentance that was specific to those who are homosexual. (I presume that the mass mentioned in the article had the Penitential Rite, but that applies to heterosexual persons just as much as homosexual persons.)