As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’

[at9009]

Great post. If I might piggyback on the highlighted paragraph, I think this topic tends to be a lot easier for us Catholics to understand because we’re very much aware that some people are celibate, e.g. Catholic priests and nuns. Protestants who think little of celibacy tend to see the question just in terms of who to have sex with, without considering the possibility that a person could choose not to have sex at all.

Yeah. Unfortunately in the US at least, many Protestant denominations have seemingly idolatrized marriage and hte nuclear family. Often, marriage isn’t viewed as a vocation but rather a checkbox in life. Not to mention how some have attacked singleness as a sign of lack of spiritual maturity, selfishness, and other things. Some have even gone as far to at least implicitly suggest that marriage is the only/best path to holiness. The whole aspect of purity culture in the 90s furthered this. The view basically lead to do not learn to sublimate desires into God’s Will but rather white knuckle your way through life until you find your spouse and then have fun. Obviously not all Protestant churches are like this, but some of the seemingly more vocal people act like this.

At least with Catholic and the Orthodox Church we have a tradition and understanding of vocations, not to mention many celibate saints to look for inspiration to.

 

[OraLabora]

Great post. If I might piggyback on the highlighted paragraph, I think this topic tends to be a lot easier for us Catholics to understand because we’re very much aware that some people are celibate, e.g. Catholic priests and nuns. Protestants who think little of celibacy tend to see the question just in terms of who to have sex with, without considering the possibility that a person could choose not to have sex at all.

I’m not so certain. I know several Protestants that have a very strong sense that sex outside marriage is wrong. They may not fully embrace the Catholic view on say, contraception, or permissible sexual practices within marriage, but the do have a strong sense of marital fidelity and marriage as the only lawful outlet for sex.

There are, BTW, consecrated religious among the Anglicans, who even have Benedictine monasteries, where necessarily the monks and nuns are celibate.

Moreover Eastern Catholics have married clergy, and don’t seem to have any more or less issues with chastity than Roman rite Catholics.

It really boils down to just how secularized one has allowed one’s self to become. There is no shortage of that either within Catholicism or Protestantism.

 

[Catholic13]

Cardinal Tobin of Newark, NJ actually invited and welcomed LGBTQ Catholics to Mass in his Cathedral.

That is hate. Christ asks us to repent of our sins not embrace them. Cardinal Tobin hates these people because he welcomed them to commit more sins instead of repenting.

 

[Catholic13]

…

 

[at9009]

That is hate. Christ asks us to repent of our sins not embrace them. Cardinal Tobin hates these people because he welcomed them to commit more sins instead of repenting.

That is an incredibly uncharitable and serious charge to make. You have no idea what conversations the Cardinal had with these people at an individual level. To make that accusation without any evidence is not acceptable.

 

[StudentMI]

That is an incredibly uncharitable and serious charge to make. You have no idea what conversations the Cardinal had with these people at an individual level. To make that accusation without any evidence is not acceptable.

Amen

 

[Catholic13]

That is an incredibly uncharitable and serious charge to make. You have no idea what conversations the Cardinal had with these people at an individual level. To make that accusation without any evidence is not acceptable.

Did you read the OP? The Cardinal invited gays some of which are in gay “marriages” to participate in Holy Communion.

 

[phil19034]

Well, Josh, that is kind of a moot point since Sy Noe doesn’t have the capability or the authority to change anything in the Church. On the other hand, Cardinal Tobin DOES.

FYI - Cardinal Tobin does NOT have the authority to change Dogma. The Pope doesn’t have the authority to change Dogma either.

 

[Rau]

Did you read the OP? The Cardinal invited gays some of which are in gay “marriages” to participate in Holy Communion.

Are you certain this happened ?

 

[phil19034]

Christ received the leper regardless of his situation. And I’d say the leper was helped a great deal by Jesus receiving and touching him.

It’s sinful to be a leper, nor do you become a leper by sinning.

It’s no where near the same thing.

 

[Catholic13]

Rau
This message is hidden because Rau is on your ignore list.

 

[StudentMI]

-]/-]

It’s sinful to be a leper, nor do you become a leper by sinning.

It’s no where near the same thing.

I’m assuming you meant it is NOT sinful to be a leper.

It actually is similar in that every sin gives one the feeling of being beyond grace. Of being outside. To be touched by love can indeed awaken in one the feeling of repentance, of changing one’s life. It did me.

 

[phil19034]

It’s sinful to be a leper, nor do you become a leper by sinning.

It’s no where near the same thing.

I meant to say it isn’t sinful to be a leper

 

[Peter_J]

I’m not so certain. I know several Protestants that have a very strong sense that sex outside marriage is wrong.

But you can see my point: even among those who agree with us on that point, many don’t have a well defined concept of celibacy as a life option.

 

[phil19034]

-]/-]

I’m assuming you meant it is NOT sinful to be a leper.

It actually is similar in that every sin gives one the feeling of being beyond grace. Of being outside. To be touched by love can indeed awaken in one the feeling of repentance, of changing one’s life. It did me.

Yes… I meant is it’s NOT sinful.

I agree… but really, outreach to homosexuals would be more akin to Jesus reaching out to the tax collectors and prostitutes … Jesus made them feel welcome, but He also called them to sin no more.

Gay ministries like Courage do a great job. But anyone who wants to encourage homosexuals to continue living a sinful life style (just like people who are supportive of heterosexuals in sinful relationships) is not in line with the Church.

One cannot receive communion if you do not go to Confession after committing mortal sin.

– heterosexual divorce & remarriage without annulment
– homosexual acts
– homosexual relationships
– heterosexual fornication
– heterosexual co-habitation
– “same sex marriage”
– masturbation
– adultery
– use of birth control
– IVF
– sterilizations
– abortion
– fornication
– sodomy (heterosexual or homosexual)
– married without recognition of the Church
– etc.

All of these sins and/or state of life prevent someone from receiving communion unless they have repented.

The problem is that many people want to ignore (if not change) the Church’s teaching on these.

Anyone guilty of any of these sins should not be bringing themselves up for communion.

The ONLY difference between the homosexual sins and the heterosexual sins is that often (not always) the homosexual sins are more public. We don’t have many “Fornication Pride Parades” or “Divorced and Remarried Pride Day” celebrations.

 

[OraLabora]

All of these sins and/or state of life prevent someone from receiving communion unless they have repented.

Only if all conditions for mortal culpability are met. For instance on masturbation, the Catechism says:

2352… To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.

The same is true of all other grave sins: culpability can be mitigated by circumstances. Think for instance of a young pregnant woman threatened with violence by her boyfriend if she does not have an abortion, or a pregnant teen forced by her parents into an abortion to avoid sullying the family name.

 

[OraLabora]

But you can see my point: even among those who agree with us on that point, many don’t have a well defined concept of celibacy as a life option.

Yes some in fact think a purposefully celibate life is “abnormal”; the Anglican religious communities that are celibate, are generally not well known by the Anglican laity.

 

[fmchan52]

Only if all conditions for mortal culpability are met. For instance on masturbation, the Catechism says:

The same is true of all other grave sins: culpability can be mitigated by circumstances. Think for instance of a young pregnant woman threatened with violence by her boyfriend if she does not have an abortion, or a pregnant teen forced by her parents into an abortion to avoid sullying the family name.

How would someone know if they’re culpable for their sins or not unless they go to confession?

 

[StudentMI]

Yes… I meant is it’s NOT sinful.

I agree… but really, outreach to homosexuals would be more akin to Jesus reaching out to the tax collectors and prostitutes … Jesus made them feel welcome, but He also called them to sin no more.

Gay ministries like Courage do a great job. But anyone who wants to encourage homosexuals to continue living a sinful life style (just like people who are supportive of heterosexuals in sinful relationships) is not in line with the Church.

One cannot receive communion if you do not go to Confession after committing mortal sin.

– heterosexual divorce & remarriage without annulment
– homosexual acts
– homosexual relationships
– heterosexual fornication
– heterosexual co-habitation
– “same sex marriage”
– masturbation
– adultery
– use of birth control
– IVF
– sterilizations
– abortion
– fornication
– sodomy (heterosexual or homosexual)
– married without recognition of the Church
– etc.

All of these sins and/or state of life prevent someone from receiving communion unless they have repented.

The problem is that many people want to ignore (if not change) the Church’s teaching on these.

Anyone guilty of any of these sins should not be bringing themselves up for communion.

The ONLY difference between the homosexual sins and the heterosexual sins is that often (not always) the homosexual sins are more public. We don’t have many “Fornication Pride Parades” or “Divorced and Remarried Pride Day” celebrations.

Yes, but one must remember the climate towards homosexual people that has long existed and still does. People can go on about how the media is ‘pushing’ gay people on others, and granted many places are welcoming nowadays, but there is still much hatred towards them. I know a number of young people who are still bullied and ostracized by their families for their orientation. The number of young gay people committing suicide is still high. I know a young lady who was part of the Gay Straight Alliance at her high school and the amount of harassment they faced was horrible.

As long as these things exist you can’t blame people for promoting gay pride.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, but one must remember the climate towards homosexual people that has long existed and still does.

Yes, it still exists.

The best response I’ve been able to come up with is encouraging reading of Always Our Children
(Sometimes I do it so much that I start to feel like a broken record … but when you think about it, maybe a broken record isn’t always such a bad thing to be. )