As the Flame of Catholic Dissent Dies Out

[FidesSpesCarita]

Getting back to the OP.
I don’t beleive dissent will ever truly ‘die out’. Should we look at the causes that originated some of the dissent? Causes that obviously pre-dated Vatican 2.

I, too, believe that the dissent will never disappear entirely. Satan will be at work trying to steal souls away from God until the last instant possible. That being the case however, we need to drown out the “noise” of society (read: screwtape comments) with the silence and reverence in which God’s voice may be heard. This is one of the reasons (among MANY) that I became a Catholic, the reverence that I found in the Mass and in the CC’s I went to in Shrewsbury Mass (St. Annes is a wonderful parrish and I pray that Father Gilgun is still kicking around Dismas house). When I found out that I was just “lucky” enough to have found one of the relatively few remaining almost-orthodox parishes around I began to realize that it was not luck.

I Honestly believe that GOD HIMSELF is tired of this liberalization of the celebration of His Son’s sacrifice for us. He has been calling men in droves (relatively speaking) to his ministerial priesthood, and those churches that are blessed with an orthodox priest have seen incredible growth lately. Those parishes who are not blessed with orthodoxy are still doing very well, but the majority of their parishioners, IMHO, are aging and not being replaced by the youth. They will eventually be forced (sadly it requires God to force them) back to orthodoxy, if only to maintain their parishs [sp?] attendance.

I will never relish in any persons death if I can help it, but I sincerely take delight in the death of the heterodoxy which has driven so very many out of the Church and caused so very many to go against the church, albeit in good faith, and risk their souls to causes so clearly founded by the devil as witchcraft, lesbianism, and “pro-choice” movements.

Very sincerely and with as much love as I can muster,

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[LizH1019]

I’m 20, and I’ve been a Catholic since birth. I’m just now beginning to learn about all of these people, and how they made so many of us get so far off.

My home parish is somewhere in the middle, as far as tradition goes…I think. However, we are still suffering from a retired DRE who really was not effective in catechizing…anyone, really. I really did not learn too much from my CCD classes, and I sometimes feel so…at a loss, I guess, when someone asks me something about my faith. “At a loss” really doesn’t describe it, even. More like cheated. Angry. Indignant. Not at the person who asked me the question; rather, I’m angry at the catechists who taught me, and did not know what they were talking about. I’m angry at whoever taught them, and did not know what they were talking about. I am angry at these people, the people mentioned in the article.

I don’t rejoice in the deaths of these people. But I am cautiously hopeful that what the article says is true, that the awful opinions of these people will die out and stop infecting Catholicism.

Those parishes who are not blessed with orthodoxy are still doing very well, but the majority of their parishioners, IMHO, are aging and not being replaced by the youth.

This is exactly what is happening in my church. The older “guitar Mass” people are, well, old. Most of their children are not even Catholic. Their children know next to nothing about Catholicism, or even about Jesus. I know because I am (or, rather, was) one of those children, and, as a catechist, I teach those children now.

My heart breaks for them, and I try to teach them as much as I can, but I’m sometimes overwhelmed at how little they know. At how little I know.

 

[ProVobis]

= I think it’s more important to feed the hungry than spat about altar rails.

Apparently the ones who spent lots of money to remove the altar rails didn’t think so.

 

[SonofMonica]

This is exactly what is happening in my church. The older “guitar Mass” people are, well, old. Most of their children are not even Catholic. Their children know next to nothing about Catholicism, or even about Jesus. I know because I am (or, rather, was) one of those children, and, as a catechist, I teach those children now.

My heart breaks for them, and I try to teach them as much as I can, but I’m sometimes overwhelmed at how little they know. At how little I know.

My heart goes out for you, and at the same time, I have the same heart as you. I feel as though our generation needs to band together and show support for Pope Benedict and his reform of the reform. We need to show that it is not novelty and compromise that draws us in, but tradition and solidarity. We can get bad guitar music anywhere. If we want to remain ignorant about the faith and just accept anything and everybody, we don’t need the Church for that. We need the Church to be true to its history, true to its God. True to authentic worship and liturgy and catechesis. REAL catechesis–not the touchy feely mess of the 1960’s. I am wondering if there are any organized nationwide or worldwide groups for younger people like us who want to stand up for the Church’s entire tradition and the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith?

 

[SonofMonica]

Apparently the ones who spent lots of money to remove the altar rails didn’t think so.

You’re right, ProVobis. At any rate, it’s setting up a false dichotomy. It is certainly possible to care about altar rails and feeding the poor. Both faith and works, remember?

 

[Lutheranteach]

The danger is that those who differ no longer dissent; they simply leave taking their talents, donations and perhaps the most dangerous of all, the next generation of potential Catholics with them.

 

[ibkc]

The danger is that those who differ no longer dissent; they simply leave taking their talents, donations and perhaps the most dangerous of all, the next generation of potential Catholics with them.

The dissenters who leave are largely the liberals who contracept and don’t pass along the faith to the kids they do have, anyway. OTOH, the trad parish I attend is full of large families with lots of children.

 

[SonofMonica]

The danger is that those who differ no longer dissent; they simply leave taking their talents, donations and perhaps the most dangerous of all, the next generation of potential Catholics with them.

Not that I would want to be judging their souls, but I fail to see the difference in dissenting from the Catholic faith while sitting in the pew, and dissenting while sitting somewhere else. Not even from a monetary standpoint. Liberals don’t give anywhere near as much money to churches as conservatives. Not even close. Ask any Episcopalian diocesan official. And as far as the next generation goes, they will (1) attempt to rediscover orthodox Catholicism in spite of their parents (a good thing), (2) fail to ever learn anything about Catholicism (which they wouldn’t anyway, even if their parents were in the Church–catechesis begins at home), or (3) follow the lead of their dissenting parents (in which case, the Church doesn’t need them any more than their parents). If Church isn’t true and worth doing correctly, we may as well all stay home.

 

[Lormar]

I wish the flame of Catholic dissent would die out, but it’s alive and well in my neck of the woods.

A good book to read is by Msgr. George Kelly “Inside My Father’s House.” Another one (also by Msgr. Kelly) is “The Battle for the American Church - Revisited.” Both are out of print but used copies can be purchased.

 

[reggieM]

But it is fair to note that when Prof. Daly died, **she left behind no young Mary Dalys to continue waging her quixotic war against the faith **that shaped her, whether she liked it or not.

:clapping::extrahappy:

Bye-bye liberals, crackpot-theologians, arrogant dissenters …

 

[otjm]

Amen!! I’m 18 and soooooo sick of it. I cannot even convey the sadness I have when the Tabernacles are thrown in corners and behind walls, and there is zero respect for the Eucharist.

If there’s any women wondering what they can do,
1)Dress up for mass (shopping spree + looking beautiful, who can complain?)
2)Wear a chapel veil (Catholic traditions store on Ebay have the loveliest ones - not your grandma’s chapel veil )
3)Kneel to receive the Eucharist on the tongue. You’ll receive God’s graces beyond belief! I just did it for the first time (outside of a Latin mass) on Thursday. I was literally shaking with joy afterwards… seriously, just try it. You will not be dissapointed.
4)Smile when you’re at mass like this. The old adage “Smile - people will wonder what you’re up to” has never applied better. If people see your respect and joy for the Mass, it will catch on.

The problems with abuses, architecture, and music ALL stem from a lack of respect for the Eucharist. It’s our modern epidemic. DO NOT underestimate the influence you can have on other people.

Take hope in Pope Benedict(he brought back communion on the tongue and at the rail), and our wonderful Cardinal Arinze (watch him on youtube, he’s not only a friend of true Catholics but a great comedian!). They are keeping things in check, and need our prayers.

Having had twins, and having watched them grow to adulthood, along with their friends, I am always amused when an 18 year old is suddenly an expert.

I am in a parish in which the church is built in the half-round. While we do not have clown Masses (and I seriously doubt there were ever more than a handful nationwide, and none here) our 78 year old Jesuit pastor follows the rubrics, and we sing from what is published music wise by OCP

So that is two out of three. Does that all come from lack of respect for the Eucharist?

Well, let’s take a look at some other things to bring the parish into perspective: we have a thriving social ministry to the poor; we started a food kitchen (meals prepared) with several other Protestant churches in the immediate area (Oh - right - we are working with heretics); we have in addition a food pantry for the local area; we have an active pro life group; the Knights of Columbus are thriving; we have 11 people in our RCIA program this year; we have an active Stephens Ministry; we have an active ministry bringing the Eucharist to the local prison as well as to nearby hospitals (oh, sorry - done by the laity; guess that doesn’t count); we have two education programs for adults; the parish recently started the first grade school to be builty in 40 years in the archdiocese; we have had two seminarians (one ordained) and one young woman who joined a group of missionary nuns (oh, forgot - she doesn’t count, because she was an altar server!); and we have had Perpetual Adoration for something like 15 years now. Oh, but I suspect that doesn’t count because we have no altar rails and everyone receives standing. We also have a program for Returning Catholics.

Having been in the seminary in the 1960’s, I can say categorically that presuming that abuses stem from lack of the Eucharist is making a judgement without investigation. Did some of it stem from the ? Undoubtedly. Did all of it? The evidence is all too often to the contrary; I have known far too many priests, for example, who fractioned the Precious Blood after consecration - not because of lack of respect - but because of poor rubrics. It became the unofficial norm for just about everyone.

Do changes in architecture stem from lack of the Eucharist? Hardly. You may not agree with the architectural thought behind it, but to presume that it stems from lack of respect is to make an opinion out of whole cloth.

Does the music come from, lack of respect of the Eucharist? Have you even met any of the musicians who have written it? Or is this just one more unfounded opinion? I have met some of them. You don’t have a clue, just an opinion.

Kneeling to receive - well, if not following the request of the local bishop - in which he has the permission of Rome to determine - makes your socks roll up and down, by all means do so. But if you are implying that standing to receive is a sign of lack of respect, then you have some “splainin” to do about our parish, as the evidence is to the contrary.

You are welcome to look down the end of your 18 year old nose at others. Judging others’ moral intentions and status is highlighted in the Gospels.

Or you could be a little bit less opinionated, pay a little more attention to what is going on around you, and just possibly learn something.

Oh, and I have never seen a tabernacle thrown anywhere - into corners or behind walls; but ours is in our chapel, not the main body of the Church.

Oh, and I have no problem whatsoever with you receiving on the tongue, as that is the norm of the Roman rite and most definitely your right. But if you are making a veiled reference to receiving in the hand as less respectful, then please, explain how this parish, where the vast majority receive in the hand, also has 15 years of Perpetual Adoration - and still receive in the hand.

Hm?

 

[otjm]

Those parishes who are not blessed with orthodoxy are still doing very well, but the majority of their parishioners, IMHO, are aging and not being replaced by the youth. They will eventually be forced (sadly it requires God to force them) back to orthodoxy, if only to maintain their parishs [sp?] attendance.

Attendance is an interesting issue. According to recent surveys, 21% of those in the 18 to 30age range attend Mass weekly. I don’t know what is going on in Bozeman (except perhaps motor cycle maintenance???) but nation wide the large majority of young people adult age have abandoned the Church. Because of orthodoxy? More likely because of such horrible catechesis as children (and likewise their parents) that they would not know orthodoxy if it bit them. They don’t have a reason to go to church.

I will never relish in any persons death if I can help it, but I sincerely take delight in the death of the heterodoxy which has driven so very many out of the Church and caused so very many to go against the church, albeit in good faith, and risk their souls to causes so clearly founded by the devil as witchcraft, lesbianism, and “pro-choice” movements.

The leaders of 40 years ago may be dying, but it would be a tragic mistake to presume they taught no one.

 

[Indyann]

Having had twins, and having watched them grow to adulthood, along with their friends, I am always amused when an 18 year old is suddenly an expert.

I am in a parish in which the church is built in the half-round. While we do not have clown Masses (and I seriously doubt there were ever more than a handful nationwide, and none here) our 78 year old Jesuit pastor follows the rubrics, and we sing from what is published music wise by OCP

So that is two out of three. Does that all come from lack of respect for the Eucharist?

Well, let’s take a look at some other things to bring the parish into perspective: we have a thriving social ministry to the poor; we started a food kitchen (meals prepared) with several other Protestant churches in the immediate area (Oh - right - we are working with heretics); we have in addition a food pantry for the local area; we have an active pro life group; the Knights of Columbus are thriving; we have 11 people in our RCIA program this year; we have an active Stephens Ministry; we have an active ministry bringing the Eucharist to the local prison as well as to nearby hospitals (oh, sorry - done by the laity; guess that doesn’t count); we have two education programs for adults; the parish recently started the first grade school to be builty in 40 years in the archdiocese; we have had two seminarians (one ordained) and one young woman who joined a group of missionary nuns (oh, forgot - she doesn’t count, because she was an altar server!); and we have had Perpetual Adoration for something like 15 years now. Oh, but I suspect that doesn’t count because we have no altar rails and everyone receives standing. We also have a program for Returning Catholics.

Having been in the seminary in the 1960’s, I can say categorically that presuming that abuses stem from lack of the Eucharist is making a judgement without investigation. Did some of it stem from the ? Undoubtedly. Did all of it? The evidence is all too often to the contrary; I have known far too many priests, for example, who fractioned the Precious Blood after consecration - not because of lack of respect - but because of poor rubrics. It became the unofficial norm for just about everyone.

Do changes in architecture stem from lack of the Eucharist? Hardly. You may not agree with the architectural thought behind it, but to presume that it stems from lack of respect is to make an opinion out of whole cloth.

Does the music come from, lack of respect of the Eucharist? Have you even met any of the musicians who have written it? Or is this just one more unfounded opinion? I have met some of them. You don’t have a clue, just an opinion.

Kneeling to receive - well, if not following the request of the local bishop - in which he has the permission of Rome to determine - makes your socks roll up and down, by all means do so. But if you are implying that standing to receive is a sign of lack of respect, then you have some “splainin” to do about our parish, as the evidence is to the contrary.

You are welcome to look down the end of your 18 year old nose at others. Judging others’ moral intentions and status is highlighted in the Gospels.

Or you could be a little bit less opinionated, pay a little more attention to what is going on around you, and just possibly learn something.

Oh, and I have never seen a tabernacle thrown anywhere - into corners or behind walls; but ours is in our chapel, not the main body of the Church.

Oh, and I have no problem whatsoever with you receiving on the tongue, as that is the norm of the Roman rite and most definitely your right. But if you are making a veiled reference to receiving in the hand as less respectful, then please, explain how this parish, where the vast majority receive in the hand, also has 15 years of Perpetual Adoration - and still receive in the hand.

Hm?

Doesn’t it make you feel all warm and fuzzy to know that this holier than thou group of all knowing children will soon be dancing on our graves? Gee, wonder who they will blame the problems in the Church on then? Oh, that’s right. There won’t be any problems when the “wonder” generation takes over.

 

[otjm]

Dissent is not going to disappear. REad the history of the Church; there has been dissent in almost every century of its existence. And at times, matters were as bad if not worse than now; check out the Arian heresy and how long it lasted and how thoroughly it permiated the Church.

There should be no rejoicing in the deaths of the old school dissenters; one should rather pray for their souls, and the souls of all they leave behind whom they taught and/or influenced.

And the article is incorrect in that there are plenty of theologians who have come up behind them who are just as unorthodox, if not more so. The ones named were the stars of a time; that time has long since passed, and there are far more dissenters now than there were then.

All too many in the pews, and altogether too many of the 70% who are not regularly in the pews, dissent also. One only has to listen to some of the discussions with and around the area of politics, and specifically the issue of abortion; the last general election brought out a plethora who publicly stated they were going to vote for a candidate for president who had the most radical abortion platform and history of anyone significan who ever run for the office.

 

[otjm]

Doesn’t it make you feel all warm and fuzzy to know that this holier than thou group of all knowing children will soon be dancing on our graves? Gee, wonder who they will blame the problems in the Church on then? Oh, that’s right. There won’t be any problems when the “wonder” generation takes over.

I was in college before Vatican 2 finished. My last two years of high school were at a Jesuit scholl, and the priests and scholastics were for the most part, if not brilliant, far better educated in thinking than we students. And when we proposed an opinion without substantiation, we learned quickly that flew about as far as a rock. They were fast to teach, and fast to expose error and the arrogance of youth who had no experience.

Those of us who paid attention learned that rather than spouting opinions, we were much more likely to enter into dialogue by asking questions, and then listening.

'Twould seem, 'tis no longer taught.

 

[otjm]

I was in college before Vatican 2 finished. My last two years of high school were at a Jesuit school, and the priests and scholastics were for the most part, if not brilliant, far better educated in thinking than we students. And when we proposed an opinion without substantiation, we learned quickly that flew about as far as a rock. They were fast to teach, and fast to expose error and the arrogance of youth who had no experience.

Those of us who paid attention learned that rather than spouting opinions, we were much more likely to enter into dialogue by asking questions, and then listening.

'Twould seem, 'tis no longer taught.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Ok sorry I stand corrected. I didn’t think it was about returning the Mass to Latin and kneeling at a Communion rail while receiving the Eucharist by mouth. Let me think. In my Last Supper picture are the Apostles kneeling while eating?

it is also not historicity accurate, remember its a painting, the artists conception not a photo. I like the old joke that Jesus must have said “ok everyone move to this side of the table if you want to be in the picture”
Im not sure if I should post in this section or if it is just for Catholics, I will exit if asked to.
If say a certain Catholic priest teaches a non Catholic doctrine, how is that handled? Is he considered an apostate? Are those he teaches also considered non-catholics? Are they still apart of the “one body”?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I was in college before Vatican 2 finished. My last two years of high school were at a Jesuit scholl, and the priests and scholastics were for the most part, if not brilliant, far better educated in thinking than we students. And when we proposed an opinion without substantiation, we learned quickly that flew about as far as a rock. They were fast to teach, and fast to expose error and the arrogance of youth who had no experience.

Those of us who paid attention learned that rather than spouting opinions, we were much more likely to enter into dialogue by asking questions, and then listening.

'Twould seem, 'tis no longer taught.

Only quoted one of your posts, so hopefully this isnt too confusing.

First let me ask you how you guessed my last name (highlighted in red), it made me smile (even though I know its a misspelling).

Second, no, it is not taught anymore. We seem to no longer be taught how to think, or how to understand what others think. I was taught (not directly, but by inference) that MY opinions and MY thoughts were prime in all interactions. The older I get (only 26 right now) the more I see the error in this way of thinking.

C: What is happening in Bozeman is what I saw happening in Boston, a nominally Catholic area. The “spirit of Vatican II” has poisoned the culture of Catholicism to the point that there is no longer anything different between Catholics, Catholicism, and the Mass and Protestant Culture . This is a great sorrow for me, as we ARE different. We have different beliefs.

Example: There are three parishes within 15 miles of me. Holy Rosary is headed by a priest who no longer believes in the concept of sin. Literally. In confession, he addresses the psychological and socio-political problems that make people think they have sinned. He also believes that there is nothing wrong with the Gay culture and lifestyle, that it is not inherently sinful, since there is no such thing as sin. He says that once we have made a decision to follow God’s will that we literally cannot sin any longer. He also advocates, publicly, for the ordination of women. The only response I can have to these issues is wrong, wrong, wrong and begin to think that he has apostasized himself.

The second parish has a priest who does not have any form of ordinary confession. He did two things that are anathema to me. One was that he refused to hear a frined of mine’s confession because he was too busy researching his homily (this was on a friday). This is, to me, one of the primary responsibilities of a shepherd of God’s sheep, to help them to “get right” with God. He also had a confession service once where the parishioners were all in the folding chairs his church uses instead of pews and then would come up one by one and “tell their sins to Jesus”. In other words, they would come up, stand or sit behind the altar, and confess to the crucifix in front of the rest of the congregation.

Both of these priests epitomize the abuses that I have seen. Both of them announce aloud the prayers during the Mass which the GIRM states, explicitly, are to be said inaudibly. The first priest walks about the congregation to give his homilies, the second never refers to God’s will in his homilies. Neither gives advice on doing God’s will or avoiding sin, they just give advice on how to do your will in what you think God wants. “what do YOU think God wants you to do?” “What do YOU want to do?” etc. etc. etc. Not “Pray that God may make his will known to you” or “Pray that God’s will might be done.”

The third parish is lead by a priest who is absolutely orthodox. I have not found anything, yet, that diverts from the CCC, GIRM, or Canon law. His parish is growing leaps and bounds. First two are fading except for the older parishioners.

I would never (hopefully) have the hubris to assume that I know the hearts of the parishioners of these two churches. They may be absolutely in line with the Magisterium. But I firmly believe that you can judge a mans heart by his actions and fruits. Their actions show that they are not in line. Their fruits show their inevitable decline. I am glad of the second, sorrowful for the first.

We do not need to go back to altar rails and latin. I personally would like to see it, but that is a personal opinion, not something that I feel is a necessity. But we DO need to correct these abuses. We need to get back to doing the will of God which we can now by the Magisteriums teachings, lead at all times by the Holy Spirit.

Gotta cut this short, but hopefully this explains my stance a bit…

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[FidesSpesCarita]

it is also not historicity accurate, remember its a painting, the artists conception not a photo. I like the old joke that Jesus must have said “ok everyone move to this side of the table if you want to be in the picture”
Im not sure if I should post in this section or if it is just for Catholics, I will exit if asked to.
If say a certain Catholic priest teaches a non Catholic doctrine, how is that handled? Is he considered an apostate? Are those he teaches also considered non-catholics? Are they still apart of the “one body”?

NOTE: PERSONAL OPINIONS BELOW

I cannot believe that a priest who stubbornly teaches something counter to the magisterium maintains his Catholicity. A priest is a priest forever. The sacrament of holy orders is a permanent change to a man, but they can remove themselves from the Body of Christ.

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[manualman]

It pains me to see the Catholic Church leaving me. So perhaps I will take your place. The Episcopal churches in my locale offer a guitar Mass, another Mass with a Christian rock youth band performing, and one with a jazz Mass along with the traditional.

Plus you can believe whatever your imagination comes up with and nobody will object! Sounds great, huh?