As the Flame of Catholic Dissent Dies Out

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Plus you can believe whatever your imagination comes up with and nobody will object! Sounds great, huh? šŸ˜‰
I can point you to a female priest in Arkansas, Arkansas, that tells potential converts in a class supposedly about the Christian faith, that you don’t have to believe anything to be a Christian. She admits that she was not a Christian when ā€œGod called her to the priesthood.ā€ * It’s all about the journey. * Lord, have mercy. I’m glad I’m getting out of that den of false teaching and brood of vindictive vipers.
 
But we DO need to correct these abuses. We need to get back to doing the will of God which we can now by the Magisteriums teachings, lead at all times by the Holy Spirit.
That’ll be tough. The same Magisterium appears to have approved, or at least tolerated, those abuses.
 
That’ll be tough. The same Magisterium appears to have approved, or at least tolerated, those abuses.
Yes but they did the same in the middle ages. They basically did nothing about the abuses then.

This is what confuses many people who just dont know any better.

PAUL
 
Humans seem to have trouble with the concept of nuance. This thread was originally about a generation of nominally catholic leaders who taught the contents of their own reasoning and dishonestly labeled it as catholic teaching. Not surprisingly, that generation has not inspired a lot of followers (and why would it, when their main message boiled down to ā€œchange what you don’t like to what you do likeā€). Those who heard their message and received it largely seem to like doing something ELSE on Sunday morning than coming to mass…

It isn’t surprising that their dishonesty angered a lot of catholics that DID want to be actual catholics (i.e. hear, learn and be open to the teachings of catholicism). That doesn’t justify ā€œdancing on dissenter gravesā€ but it sure helps you understand the feelings.

But it is also easy to go too far with reactions against dissenters just like THEY went too far in reacting against ACTUAL problems in the pre-Vatican2 church (gasp). What is important is that all catholics approach the faith with a humble attitude that seeks to acknowledge our sinfulness, our need for Grace and our need to be sanctified via Grace with the guidance of Divine Revelation. If that approach is intact, we as a church will survive squabbles about the value of altar rails and liturgical music types. If it isn’t, we won’t.
 
Humans seem to have trouble with the concept of nuance. This thread was originally about a generation of nominally catholic leaders who taught the contents of their own reasoning and dishonestly labeled it as catholic teaching. Not surprisingly, that generation has not inspired a lot of followers (and why would it, when their main message boiled down to ā€œchange what you don’t like to what you do likeā€). Those who heard their message and received it largely seem to like doing something ELSE on Sunday morning than coming to mass…

It isn’t surprising that their dishonesty angered a lot of catholics that DID want to be actual catholics (i.e. hear, learn and be open to the teachings of catholicism). That doesn’t justify ā€œdancing on dissenter gravesā€ but it sure helps you understand the feelings.

But it is also easy to go too far with reactions against dissenters just like THEY went too far in reacting against ACTUAL problems in the pre-Vatican2 church (gasp). What is important is that all catholics approach the faith with a humble attitude that seeks to acknowledge our sinfulness, our need for Grace and our need to be sanctified via Grace with the guidance of Divine Revelation. If that approach is intact, we as a church will survive squabbles about the value of altar rails and liturgical music types. If it isn’t, we won’t.
ā€œThe reformer is always right about what is wrong. He is generally wrong about what is right.ā€ – G.K. Chesterton
 
ā€œThe reformer is always right about what is wrong. He is generally wrong about what is right.ā€ – G.K. Chesterton
!!!

You gotta love Gilbert! Funny you quote that! I suggested that very quote to be an epitaph for Mary Daly a week or so ago on one of these threads. Not only is it true, it would really fry her beans to have a man’s quote associated with her life’s work. 😃
 
FIDES SPESCARITA

Question: What would you do if you didn’t have that ā€œorthodoxā€ parish to attend? How would you conduct yourself in the others? How could you be sure the Mass is even valid?

As a side note, how that one priest put you off about confession, it’s not confined to dissenters. Many years ago (I no longer go there) I had an SSPX priest tell me, when I asked him to hear my confession, that where we were (in a sacristy) wasn’t set up to hear confessions so he wouldn’t do it.
 
FIDES SPESCARITA

Question: What would you do if you didn’t have that ā€œorthodoxā€ parish to attend? How would you conduct yourself in the others? How could you be sure the Mass is even valid?

As a side note, how that one priest put you off about confession, it’s not confined to dissenters. Many years ago (I no longer go there) I had an SSPX priest tell me, when I asked him to hear my confession, that where we were (in a sacristy) wasn’t set up to hear confessions so he wouldn’t do it.
If I didnt have a church that taught right teaching (orthodox) what would I do? Even if a priest is in a state of mortal sin, he is still a priest. His mas would be valid but illicit. This signifies that the FULLNESS of the Graces which flow from reception of the Blessed Sacrament would not be received, but even then SOME of that Grace would come. I would continue to attend mass *** required, but if I could not make a good confession I would have to abstain. Now, the priest would still be a priest, so his ā€œI absolve youā€¦ā€ would still count as well… But I am not sure how I would feel, so I have to assume that I would abstain from receiving under the thought that I was in sin.

Kindof a knee-jerk writeup here, but thats all the time I have for today.

FSC
 
I can point you to a female priest in Arkansas, Arkansas, that tells potential converts in a class supposedly about the Christian faith, that you don’t have to believe anything to be a Christian. She admits that she was not a Christian when ā€œGod called her to the priesthood.ā€ * It’s all about the journey. * Lord, have mercy. I’m glad I’m getting out of that den of false teaching and brood of vindictive vipers.
Unless she is one of the screwballs who went through the sham appearance of an ordination and call themselves Catholic, she should either be an Anglican/Episcopalian, or more likely she calls herself a minister, not a priest. Or Priestess. There are no legitimate femals preists in the Catholic Church, although there may be individuals who identify themselves as such. However, in the Catholic Church, self identification and $1.65 might get you somewhere on the local transportation system.
 
otm, Sonof Monica WAS talking about an Anglican/Episcopal in that post. You have to trace back the quotes and responses to see it, but he was.
 
So… so long, baby boomers! I’m 28 years old, and my generation is about to take charge, and we can’t stand your stripped-down ugly churches and the guitar strumming '70s songs you like to sing. We don’t want to hear you tear down the church’s all male ā€œpatriarchy.ā€ And we don’t appreciate you moving the altars and the tabernacles and trying to protestantize God’s Church. If you wanted a different Church than the Catholic Church, you should have left the Catholic Church instead of trying to destroy it. You can’t win…

I am a converting Anglican, coming from a rich liturgical parish. You have no idea how much it pains me to leave altar rails, communion kneeling, incense and pipe organs and chant, and have to come into a Catholic Church which seems to detest these things. My Episcopal Church was more Catholic than Catholic, but now I have to put up with guitar strummers and liturgical garments made out of felt and laity running around in the sanctuary like they own the place! But I guarantee you this: we who cling to God’s word and the Tradition of the Church (and the traditions of the Church), we will win. God promised
Its funny, from my ā€œbaby boomerā€ cradle catholic perspective… many of the niches of this modern dissent seemed to be those who were freshly converted. However, I dont make the assumption that all converts are at the root of the problem. I would likewise suggest that not all boomers are properly represented by the likes of this recent generation of theologians.

I spent 2 plus years studying in a deaconite program and was thoroughly amazed and disgusted to find that most of the instructors with all their PHD’s and stuff were seemingly intent on undermining the Church and all her teachings as I’d been brought up to understand. I used to chuckle whenever I’d hear or read of someone about liberal and conservative catholics… I never tought of myself as anyting other than just plain catholic. By the end of the course others had labeled me as conservative and traditional, I still didnt see myself as either. I found myself called to a much more fearsome ministry (for me anyway) than the deaconite… a very small scale music ministry. Now I’m amused that folks fear my guitar so greatly!

Anyway, thank God for the Blessed Sacraments, or I do fear that our Church would by now have been passed along the wayside if left to the works of the humans who have been trying to run things, often in such misguided ways.

I pray for this womans soul, that she not be judged too harshly for whatever misguided notions she may have possessed or propegated. For I know the Lord considers greatly the misleading of those he’s entrusted to ones in leadership positions within his Church. And I pray for the rest of us, that we can learn to live and love one another and all humankind without rushing off to judgement of one another.
 
Its funny, from my ā€œbaby boomerā€ cradle catholic perspective… many of the niches of this modern dissent seemed to be those who were freshly converted. However, I dont make the assumption that all converts are at the root of the problem. I would likewise suggest that not all boomers are properly represented by the likes of this recent generation of theologians.

I spent 2 plus years studying in a deaconite program and was thoroughly amazed and disgusted to find that most of the instructors with all their PHD’s and stuff were seemingly intent on undermining the Church and all her teachings as I’d been brought up to understand. I used to chuckle whenever I’d hear or read of someone about liberal and conservative catholics… I never tought of myself as anyting other than just plain catholic. By the end of the course others had labeled me as conservative and traditional, I still didnt see myself as either. I found myself called to a much more fearsome ministry (for me anyway) than the deaconite… a very small scale music ministry. Now I’m amused that folks fear my guitar so greatly!

Anyway, thank God for the Blessed Sacraments, or I do fear that our Church would by now have been passed along the wayside if left to the works of the humans who have been trying to run things, often in such misguided ways.

I pray for this womans soul, that she not be judged too harshly for whatever misguided notions she may have possessed or propegated. For I know the Lord considers greatly the misleading of those he’s entrusted to ones in leadership positions within his Church. And I pray for the rest of us, that we can learn to live and love one another and all humankind without rushing off to judgement of one another.
Very well put, my man. And it is the theologians that seem to have sprouted up in the baby boomer generation and the complicity with them that I am railing against. But I do recgonize that not all particpated or believe in the nonsense that parades itself as modernist or progressive, when it is in fact, pathetic and pedantic. You are clearly a man of God by your words, which display much compassion, and I certainly would never question your intentions unless they were made clear, like in the heretical teachings of Hans Kung and others. So, for being faithful in a faithless world, I say :blessyou:

But for what it’s worth, I was railing against bad guitar music, not guitar music. I am a guitarist myself. :harp: But that makes it all the more horrifying when folks who can’t properly play are taking center stage when we have a 200 year old pipe organ that sounds like heaven AND we have hands that can properly play it. Merely having a guitar doesn’t make worship relevant or better. All the Eagles Wings type songs were outdated a day after they were introduced 50 years ago. 🤷
 
All the Eagles Wings type songs were outdated a day after they were introduced 50 years ago. 🤷
Hehe. And 90% of people don’t have the vocal range or skill to even sing that song! WHAT was he thinking? Might be an acceptable performance solo piece, but a lousy hymn for general use.

I don’t so much have a problem with folk or contemporary style music, but I do think it is a shame that we’ve abandoned our rich heritage like a dirty blanket. There’s room for many styles of music among God’s people.
 
These articles make me sad. I converted precisely because what I read in the Church (my catechesis was VERY lacking, so most of my education was private) was unchanging. The teachings on morality, the priesthood, family, the saints, etc. had not been altered in any time that I could find. What alterations HAD occurred did not change the definition of any of these things, merely clarified them.

The idea that ā€œprogressiveā€ Catholics exist (or even CAN exist) is anathema. We MUST remain faithful to the deposit of faith. We cannot change the word of God based on the winds of change. It is supposed to be the rock upon which we can build our house. I will not store up my treasures in a house built on the shifting sands of time and culture.

How can any Catholic not LOATHE the very concept of progressivism? How can any Catholic not DESPISE the modernism that pervades our modern cultures? How can any Catholic not HATE the evil that is motivating force behind people who attempt to change the Magisterium to their will?

As Catholics, however, we must not ever succumb to the temptation to loathe, despise, or hate the PEOPLE who are caught in these traps. We must fight evil at all times, and by hook or by crook God will have his way, but we must also love those who do evil. For ALL men are created in the image of God. Just as any pot made of clay may fall before firing, any man may fall to the temptation of Satan before he is fired by God. We must not toss broken, malformed, seemingly worthless vessels aside. We must attempt to help them: to correct the error that is in them. To bring them back to the shape God intended for us all, that God’s beautiful creation may shine through.

There is no such thing as a ā€œconservativeā€ or a ā€œliberalā€ Catholic. There is only those who are, in fact, Catholic and those who only claim Catholicism. Cafeteria Catholics must be shown the truth with Caritas in veritate. Always with both. But they must be shown the truth. To allow someone to continue in sin is, of itself, a sin.

FSC
Be of mind that ā€œmodernismā€ has a long history, dating back to the late 18th Century. Which is why some of the leading lights of the anti-Christian French Revolutionaries were
liberal cures and even bishops (e.g. Talleyrand), These Catholics have always been obsessed with politics, thinking that somehow the New Jerusalem can be brought down to earth. The Council gave them an opportunity to embody their vision, but even a progressive pope was not enough for them. The coming of John Paul II was a shock, and ascension of Ratzinger as his successor has been the defeat of this dream. Theydo not care that they have unchurched Europe and driven sincere believers to evangelicalism. Their true faith is more like Comte’s Religion of Humanity.
 
Hehe. And 90% of people don’t have the vocal range or skill to even sing that song! WHAT was he thinking? Might be an acceptable performance solo piece, but a lousy hymn for general use.

I don’t so much have a problem with folk or contemporary style music, but I do think it is a shame that we’ve abandoned our rich heritage like a dirty blanket. There’s room for many styles of music among God’s people.
A problem in the 1960s was that composers were no longer writing melodies that could be used. Popular music was the only practical model. Som we get hymns that sound like show tunes, only not as good. Oh for a Catholic George Gerswin! But he didn’t exist.
 
Hehe. And 90% of people don’t have the vocal range or skill to even sing that song! WHAT was he thinking? Might be an acceptable performance solo piece, but a lousy hymn for general use.

I don’t so much have a problem with folk or contemporary style music, but I do think it is a shame that we’ve abandoned our rich heritage like a dirty blanket. There’s room for many styles of music among God’s people.
I think more than a few songs (hymns?) have been both written and preformed with the intent that they be done without the full participation of the congregation. (and often enough led by some technically skilled organist to tell the truth) Without being too judgemental, I’ve always believed its more fitting to play stuff eveyone can participate in. For myself, whenever I find I’m singing and playing solo its usually because I listed the wrong number on the reader board!

Kind of like the misguided theologeans, I think a lot of these songs were written in the hopes of rejuvinating the congregations and enlisting more participation, but somehow in the end, it went over the top. Its a fine line to walk, between playing for the congregation, and doing the **whole thing **for the congregation.

I once prayed I’d never be asked to play at Mass again due to dreading playing in front of folks, and my fears I’d somehow ā€œblow itā€ and ruin the whole Mass. Now I feel like I’m not feeding my soul if I skip a week! While I certainly pray it never turns into a pride issue or one of greed, still I do a little check and balance thing to try keep from doing the ā€œmeā€ thing, I ask our Priest to help me choose the songs. I’ve found over and over again that the Mass is a much bigger thing than me and my petty mistakes I seem to make so often, so I dont think I’ve really "blown’ one yet. Besides, we all know that American Priests have been going lite on assigning penances for all these years since they know the parishioners are already suffering in having to listen to our playing anyway dont we?:eek:

Its funny, all this talk of ā€œprogressiveā€ or ā€œliberalā€ or ā€œtraditionalā€ā€¦ I think we ought to all be ā€œprogressiveā€ and "liberal’ and ā€œtraditionalā€. The only thing is, we ought to be so with regards to the issues we are supposed to be taking care of, and not being so critical of the way the magesterium, and papacy, and bishops and priests handle the issues that fall in their part of responsibility. Those songwriters were right from what I’ve seen, to want to help draw people more and more into the arms of our church to join us in worship. They just got carried away down the wrong fork in the road if you ask me. We catholics need to do more to welcome and invite more folks to the sacraments. I daresay theres very few parishes in the US where I couldnt attend Mass for over a year and manage to still remain anonomyous and unknown… try that in a protestent church, I dare you! Yet this is totally within the realm of the responsibilities of the Laity, one that apparently these dissenting theologans felt would be best cured by ordaining women to the Priesthood for example.

I find it a crying shame that more Catholics arent writing more and more holy and moving songs for worship and praise. Again, the Protestents seem to have the corner on that as well as the hospitality and fellowship things they do so well. Small surprise, when you consider that other than the ā€œeagles wingseyā€ stuff, the majority of our hymms seem to come from Protestent origin. And, while I may be talking about Mass songs in some small way, I’m more talking about the fact that we Laity dont do much to make places and opportunities available for these things to happen. Why cant Catholics have sold out concerts with our young people listening to songs of their faith? Well, we must not want it bad enough I guess. But, we seem more than willing to whine and complain about our ā€œpaid professionalsā€ and their shortcomings dont we?

Anyway, preserve our rich heritage? We MUST do so, but, we must also expand the heritage we leave for the next generations as well. I hope and pray I’m not one of those generations of whom when the Lord asks what I’ve done with my talents I have to tell him I was scared and hid them in the ground, or that I meant to do something about them, but was too busy arguing ā€œtheologyā€ because I thought women should be ordained or because the vows of chastity were too tough for modern men to accept in order to become a Priest, or that it wasnt written for a pipe organ or unaccompanied chant so I thought it’d be best if no one else ever heard it.

I know my place and my role in the scheme of things, and while its certainly in the pew with my voice and heart joined with yours and our Priests, Bishops, and Religeous, its also in the foyer, on the streets, in the adult education classes, and in the pancake breakfasts. And, occasionally, He’ll let me play for him and you. (but I promise not your ā€œeagles wingsā€) 😃
 
I can’t help thinking some of you are missing the point. I’ve only been to very few ā€œguitar-massesā€ in my life, they didn’t catch on where I live, but the guitars are not the problem. Even liturgical dancing is not the problem.
The few times I’ve found myself in a ā€œguitar-massā€ I’ve been very uncomfortable. I thought it was because I was unused to it. I can remember trying very hard to take the music seriously and failing.
But two months ago I was in Kenya. And I went to an Italian Mission for mass. The (very good) italian priest there had incorporated typical Kenyan church-music into his liturgy. They had a choir equipped with tambourines and drums and wash-boards. They sang ā€œhow great thou artā€ and an ā€œAve Mariaā€ among some stuff in Swahili. They even did some on-the-spot dancing. And here’s the thing: I felt the music lifting up my prayers to God. I honestly did! I, who usually opt for gregorian and old polyphonic music in the church since that is what I’m used to!
I haven’t been able to stop thinking about it since. And I’m not sure I understand exactly what the difference was between this ā€œguitar-massā€ and others I’ve attended. But one thing’s for certain: this mass was celebrated with great care. Everyone kneeled. Everyone focused. When communion came around about 60% of the congregation went to communion. A low number, perhaps - but that also means they take it seriously!

Did i go home and talk to the priest about perhaps having a tambourine-choir in our church? No. Definitely no. But I was more certain than ever that the problem of modern western liturgy is not the guitars. It’s the intention.

Oh, now I remember I wanted to thank NeelyAnn for posting the articles. Very interesting!
 
Did i go home and talk to the priest about perhaps having a tambourine-choir in our church? No. Definitely no. But I was more certain than ever that the problem of modern western liturgy is not the guitars. It’s the intention.
With all due respect, using subjective intent as a measuring stick is little more than giving in to moral subjectivism. It allows us to justify almost any sort of behavior. I’ve seen this very same argument used on this forum to justify:
  • Teens wearing satanic symbols to Mass
  • Priests wearing beach clothes in the confessional
  • Congregations giving less concern to attire/behavior in Mass
  • Protestant preachers giving homilies
  • Liturgical dancing and other abuses within the Mass
The reasons they give are always the same: ā€œWe can’t judge that person’s intentā€, or ā€œIt doesn’t matter what they do as long as they meant wellā€, or ā€œWe should just be glad they went to church,ā€ or ā€œDon’t complain, there’s a shortage of priests.ā€

Subjectivism is like a disease. We see it in our culture and now we’re seeing it in our Church. Part of the Church’s proper role is to resist the cultural trends and stand firm, to say that certain things are always wrong to do while others are always right, regardless of circumstance.

We have lowered our expectations so much that we’ll tolerate nearly any kind of behavior. In the same way as parents sometimes have to get tough with kids so the kids will respect and honor their authority, the Church and her leaders needs to get tough in a world where subjectivism reigns. More than ever now, people NEED to know what is right and wrong, not that what they are doing is a-ok because ā€œthey have good intentions.ā€
 
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