As Vatican Revisits Divorce, Many Catholics Long for Acceptance

[ServusHumilis]

Yeah, that Jesus guy was a really irrational nut. Why do we even listen to him anymore? You’d think Christians would’ve moved past that.

Better than I could have put it!

 

[GEddie]

God may **work **in mysterious ways, but He does not teach that way.

If the choice is between the truth and people’s feelings, however deeply held; it would be crueler NOT to uphold the truth.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[CradleJourney]

I missed Communion on Sunday because I didn’t get to Confession on Saturday and had a mortal sin on me.

somehow I don’t feel the need to demand the Church change the teachings of Christ himself because of it.

Tell me, what other mortal sins should we toss out? All of them?

I support the Church’s teaching on this.

However, might I point out that the person who’s been divorced and remarried (yes, they made a mistake and are now trying to correct it - just like you - and I - and all of us do), is stuck. Sometimes for years. Waiting through the annulment process and tribunal judgement. It’s not just that they can’t take communion this week or even this month.

They also don’t get to go to confession - for any sin. Someone is sure to point out that they could live as brother and sister - but that would only work if both people in the marriage believed it was the right thing to do (not an easy thing in this day and culture),

So they are stuck dealing with a legal process they probably don’t fully understand, with little to no guidance or support. One with no set time frame or set rulings they can count on - merely the hope that they can convince a group of people they have never met, what they are sure has already occurred (that the first “marriage” was not a religious covenant where they were united to that person by God).

These people are hurting. They are longing. They want to come home and be part of the Church. They are seeking God. And with no other alternative offered by the Catholic Church that they understand (due to poor catechism, lack of support) they see communion as their reconnection.

I’m not saying it’s right - but I wish the Church could offer an alternative to receiving communion so that they could feel they were loved and cherished and welcomed by the Church without invalidating any teaching. Esp. since it’s the church’s system (needed but not efficient) that’s keeping them away.

 

[ARSpade]

I support the Church’s teaching on this.

However, might I point out that the person who’s been divorced and remarried (yes, they made a mistake and are now trying to correct it - just like you - and I - and all of us do), is stuck. Sometimes for years. Waiting through the annulment process and tribunal judgement. It’s not just that they can’t take communion this week or even this month.

They also don’t get to go to confession - for any sin. Someone is sure to point out that they could live as brother and sister - but that would only work if both people in the marriage believed it was the right thing to do (not an easy thing in this day and culture),

So they are stuck dealing with a legal process they probably don’t fully understand, with little to no guidance or support. One with no set time frame or set rulings they can count on - merely the hope that they can convince a group of people they have never met, what they are sure has already occurred (that the first “marriage” was not a religious covenant where they were united to that person by God).

These people are hurting. They are longing. They want to come home and be part of the Church. They are seeking God. And with no other alternative offered by the Catholic Church that they understand (due to poor catechism, lack of support) they see communion as their reconnection.

I’m not saying it’s right - but I wish the Church could offer an alternative to receiving communion so that they could feel they were loved and cherished and welcomed by the Church without invalidating any teaching. Esp. since it’s the church’s system (needed but not efficient) that’s keeping them away.

This sounds pretty selfish of them, honestly. “I did this, and I did this, and YOU have to change to fit MY life.” You say, “They want to come home and be part of the Church. They are seeking God.” If that’s true, then why aren’t they living by God’s word? If they want it so badly, why aren’t they willing to do anything to get it?

It also really doesn’t matter that they made a “mistake”. Jesus said you have one shot. It also sounds like you expect the tribunal to simply be a fancy Catholic divorce court that eventually gives annulments to all comers. “No fault Catholic divorce” with a fancy name, basically, is what I’m seeing people demanding.

It isn’t the Church’s fault that they choose to get remarried. And, hate to say it, sometimes you only get one chance to make a mistake.

 

[ProVobis]

These people are hurting. They are longing.

Sorry to sound so insensitive but what about those who are left raising the kids on their own? Why should we feel sorry for those people who have decided to “move on with their lives” and have the support of a new spouse, if nothing else? If they’ve finally found the Church, more power to them, go to Church, there’s nothing to stop them from that.

 

[ARSpade]

Sorry to sound so insensitive but what about those who are left raising the kids on their own? .

Raises a good point.

Father abandons his wife and kids (maybe she’s just not as pretty as that new 23 year old at work he’s been sleeping with on the side), goes and remarries. Says his first marriage was a “mistake”. Demands the Church recognize his second marriage because his feelings are hurt.

Wife raises her kids on her own, stays faithful to the words of Christ and the teachings of the Church. Where’s the mercy for her? Shouldn’t the Church look at the husband and say, “Your first marriage was valid, you’re a selfish jerk, get back with your wife and children, straighten up, and live up to your responsibilities as a man”? Or at least, “Nope, sorry, we’re not covering up the fact that you’re a terrible person.”

Validating “second marriages” is just walking the nice path that “civil no fault divorce” has laid for us. And it leads to broken homes and broken children.

ETA: The first one comes from an actual example I know of. Except the Diocese actually granted the annulment. Because the husband looked drunk on the altar in the videotape of the marriage from a decade or more prior. Priest probably should’ve not done the ceremony, but then hey, they would’ve lost the deposit on the big party after (which is what’s really important). He got his hot new wife in the end and the wedding she wanted. Wife got the kids (husband didn’t want them around) and the cold comfort of child support payments. But, hooray, the process was all pastoral and such.

 

[ProVobis]

The reporter and editors have no desire to change Church law.

Why not? It would give them something to write about. Just sayin…

 

[ARSpade]

The reporter and editors have no desire to change Church law.

.

I highly doubt that.

My wife’s a writer for a journalistic outfit so I get to hear all the personal reasons and biases the managing editors have for spiking certain stories and heavily promoting others.

So, yeah, the reporter and editor will have a bias and a reason for writing a story to be sympathetic to whatever viewpoint supports that bias. Pretty easy to tell which way that article leans.

 

[CradleJourney]

This sounds pretty selfish of them, honestly. “I did this, and I did this, and YOU have to change to fit MY life.” You say, “They want to come home and be part of the Church. They are seeking God.” If that’s true, then why aren’t they living by God’s word? If they want it so badly, why aren’t they willing to do anything to get it?

It also really doesn’t matter that they made a “mistake”. Jesus said you have one shot. It also sounds like you expect the tribunal to simply be a fancy Catholic divorce court that eventually gives annulments to all comers. “No fault Catholic divorce” with a fancy name, basically, is what I’m seeing people demanding.

It isn’t the Church’s fault that they choose to get remarried. And, hate to say it, sometimes you only get one chance to make a mistake.

I’m sorry if my post (written well past my bedtime) was unclear. They SHOULD prayerfully consider their situation, consult with their pastor, and go thru the tribunal process, and abide by the tribunal’s decision.

As for the rest - well, we have different views.

 

[CradleJourney]

Raises a good point.

Father abandons his wife and kids (maybe she’s just not as pretty as that new 23 year old at work he’s been sleeping with on the side), goes and remarries. Says his first marriage was a “mistake”. Demands the Church recognize his second marriage because his feelings are hurt.

Wife raises her kids on her own, stays faithful to the words of Christ and the teachings of the Church. Where’s the mercy for her? Shouldn’t the Church look at the husband and say, “Your first marriage was valid, you’re a selfish jerk, get back with your wife and children, straighten up, and live up to your responsibilities as a man”? Or at least, “Nope, sorry, we’re not covering up the fact that you’re a terrible person.”

Validating “second marriages” is just walking the nice path that “civil no fault divorce” has laid for us. And it leads to broken homes and broken children.

ETA: The first one comes from an actual example I know of. Except the Diocese actually granted the annulment. Because the husband looked drunk on the altar in the videotape of the marriage from a decade or more prior. Priest probably should’ve not done the ceremony, but then hey, they would’ve lost the deposit on the big party after (which is what’s really important). He got his hot new wife in the end and the wedding she wanted. Wife got the kids (husband didn’t want them around) and the cold comfort of child support payments. But, hooray, the process was all pastoral and such.

I can feel the anger and frustration in your post as you could probably feel the pain in mine. I could post my own personal examples from friends and family but that wouldn’t help the discussion. My viewpoint is simply that there is a great deal of pain in this world caused by sin - and, like all our sins, - the ones involving marriage/divorce hurt everyone. In my experience this is the one area - the one sin - the one failure - that people are left to deal with on their own and in public. In my experience the Church has much it can improve on in this process.

 

[ARSpade]

I’m sorry if my post (written well past my bedtime) was unclear. They SHOULD prayerfully consider their situation, consult with their pastor, and go thru the tribunal process, and abide by the tribunal’s decision.

As for the rest - well, we have different views.

What do we have different views on?

The part where Jesus said divorce and remarriage equaled adultary (regardless of how hard that might be, as the disciples pointed out), or the part where I think people want to turn the annulment process into a fancy Catholic no fault divorce court.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It seems there are many divorced and remarried Catholics who want the Church to accept their divorce and remarriage,or who give up on the Church,thinking they are not welcome,can’t practice their faith or can’t participate in the mass because they aren’t allowed to receive the eucharist. The intention of the article is to stoke up sympathy for them and to sway public opinion to pressure the bishops to change Church law.

nytimes.com/2015/01/25/us/as-vatican-revisits-divorce-many-catholics-long-for-acceptance.html?_r=1

< Mark Garren does not take communion when he goes to church. Sometimes he walks up to the priest, crosses his arms over his chest and touches his shoulders to signal that he is seeking a blessing. More often, mindful of his divorce years ago, Mr. Garren, a 64-year-old Illinoisan, remains in his pew, watching with slight embarrassment as the rest of the row moves to the front of the church.

Pamela Crawford, 46, of Virginia, is having none of that. Twice divorced, she, too, feels judged by her church, but when she does go to Mass, she walks up with the rest of the congregation. “If God has a problem with me taking communion, we’ll sort it out,” she said.

Facing millions of divorced Catholics around the world, many of whom express frustration over their status in the church, the Vatican has begun a remarkable re-examination of the church’s treatment of worshipers whose marriages have broken apart.

Pope Francis, who plans to make his first trip to the United States in September to attend a conference on families, has acknowledged the concerns of divorced Catholics. He has set in motion a high-level debate about whether and how the church could change its posture toward them without altering a doctrine that declares marriage to be permanent and indissoluble.

The battle lines are clear: Some high-level church officials, most notably the conference of German bishops, want the church to relax its rules so that divorced Catholics can more fully return to church life, particularly by receiving communion, even if they have remarried. Traditionalists are pushing back fiercely, arguing that the indissolubility of marriage is ordained by God and therefore nonnegotiable. >

< Beyond the issues of church doctrine and procedure are complaints about how divorced Catholics are treated at the parish level. Many divorced Catholics sensed isolation, saying they felt judged or ostracized by priests and parishioners.

Women in particular expressed unhappiness at feeling interrogated by church tribunals during the annulment process about failed marriages, especially when abusive or adulterous husbands precipitated the breakup.

“You’re dealing with an abusive husband who is male, and then you have to go to a male to get the annulment, and a bunch of males sit at a table and decide whether your decision was correct,” said Denise Stookesberry, 58, of St. Louis. “It certainly alienated me as a woman.”

She responded by giving up on the annulment process rather than filling out documents that asked about her marital sex life. She later lost her job at a Catholic high school when she remarried, and then left Catholicism — for a time thinking that she was putting her soul in danger by doing so. >

Stories of Catholic Marriage and Divorce

nytimes.com/interactive/2015/01/24/us/catholic-divorce-reader-stories.html

The attempted hijacking of the Church by the media is so bad right now that I honestly become sick over it. It literally is making me ill. And God forgive me and God help my unbelief by my faith is shaken.

 

[Tigg]

These people are hurting. They are longing. They want to come home and be part of the Church. They are seeking God.

There is a fundamental process regarding sin that even the sympathizers cannot deny. Seeking God means full repentance for having turned ones back on Him. There is no other way infinite mercy can be obtained.

 

[JimG]

Raises a good point.

Father abandons his wife and kids (maybe she’s just not as pretty as that new 23 year old at work he’s been sleeping with on the side), goes and remarries. Says his first marriage was a “mistake”. Demands the Church recognize his second marriage because his feelings are hurt.

Wife raises her kids on her own, stays faithful to the words of Christ and the teachings of the Church. Where’s the mercy for her? Shouldn’t the Church look at the husband and say, “Your first marriage was valid, you’re a selfish jerk, get back with your wife and children, straighten up, and live up to your responsibilities as a man”? Or at least, “Nope, sorry, we’re not covering up the fact that you’re a terrible person.”

Validating “second marriages” is just walking the nice path that “civil no fault divorce” has laid for us. And it leads to broken homes and broken children.

ETA: The first one comes from an actual example I know of. Except the Diocese actually granted the annulment. Because the husband looked drunk on the altar in the videotape of the marriage from a decade or more prior. Priest probably should’ve not done the ceremony, but then hey, they would’ve lost the deposit on the big party after (which is what’s really important). He got his hot new wife in the end and the wedding she wanted. Wife got the kids (husband didn’t want them around) and the cold comfort of child support payments. But, hooray, the process was all pastoral and such.

I’ve known of a few cases like that, where the wife did not want a divorce or an annulment, but the husband had found a younger woman and just wanted out. In such cases, the tribunal can end up enabling him.

In reading some of the stories of those who wrote in, it almost seems as if no one has any idea of what they are doing when they marry. The Church presumes all marriages to be valid until proven otherwise. It’s almost as if now all marriages have to be presumed not valid until proven otherwise.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Louise Mensch is a divorced and remarried Catholic and she doesn’t want change regarding Communion for the divorced and remarried:

spectator.co.uk/features/9330022/faith-sin-and-divorce/

 

[ajecphotos]

So, a tribunal can grant an annulment if it deems right? Is that tribunal doing their work through the Holy Spirit?

Marriages are not made in heaven. One can marry, only for years down the line it breaks into tiny pieces. Like a wine glass dropped from a tall building, it shatters into many many pieces, totally unable to put back together again!!

How does God approach these marriages? Does he see each one as an individual case or lump them together under the same umbrella?

As i have stated before, nothing is black and white, as far as i am concerned!

Many things are said in the Bible but i for one believe strongly that one has to take, with a pinch of salt ‘some’ of the things printed in the Bible! We cannot understand Gods mind! We cannot read those words in the Bible and say for 100% DEFINITE that these ‘are’ Gods words! Only God knows us. Only God can decide what is a right or wrong marriage. Nothing is black and white.

Sorry to those who believe every single word in the Bible but for me, the Bible was written by ‘man’ interpreted as to how that person believed things to be at that moment in time.

I am sure that God is a very caring man who is a lot more understanding and forgiving than led to believe by those who state that what is written is 100% TRUE. God is all love. All caring. All understanding, and most of all, all Mercy!

 

[ARSpade]

Sorry to those who believe every single word in the Bible but for me, the Bible was written by ‘man’ interpreted as to how that person believed things to be at that moment in time.

What?

You don’t need to say “sorry to those who believe” you need to say “sorry to the entire Catholic Church”, because, uh, that’s a basic core belief right there.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

This is, like, Catholicism 101 here.

 

[ajecphotos]

What?

You don’t need to say “sorry to those who believe” you need to say “sorry to the entire Catholic Church”, because, uh, that’s a basic core belief right there.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

This is, like, Catholicism 101 here.

I know! I am a Catholic myself but, i also have my own mind and truly believe that some of the words in the Bible are ‘man made’. Sorry guys but this is only ‘my’ belief.

 

[ARSpade]

In reading some of the stories of those who wrote in, it almost seems as if no one has any idea of what they are doing when they marry. The Church presumes all marriages to be valid until proven otherwise. It’s almost as if now all marriages have to be presumed not valid until proven otherwise.

Well, pre-cana is a joke in most places, and priests don’t want to say “No” to people because then that’s being mean and un-pastoral or something.

Takes you many years to become a priest, but the other sacrament of vocation you can do the training for on a Saturday (if that) with a priest who only knows you because you picked his church because it was pretty and near the place you’re having the reception (which you probably booked first).

So while the Church doing the whole “all are welcome no matter what!” thing with marriages and the utter lack of Catechisis (which effects waaayyyy more than marriage in this country) bears a lot of the blame, still, people should at least have gotten the whole “you get one marriage until somebody dies” bit at least.

A lot of it would be better if priests manned up and taught authentic teachings on the subject even if it hurts somebody’s feelings. They’ll get over it (I did) or they won’t. But they’ll hear the truth. Of course, priests in my parish have pushed back on some marriages and, hooboy, do they get slammed for it. But I think that just goes with the job.

Being pastoral also means you don’t let the wolves eat the sheep.

 

[ARSpade]

I know! I am a Catholic myself but, i also have my own mind and truly believe that some of the words in the Bible are ‘man made’. Sorry guys but this is only ‘my’ belief.

Kinda like how Martin Luther was a Catholic himself, but…