As Vatican Revisits Divorce, Many Catholics Long for Acceptance

[gamewell45]

She responded by giving up on the annulment process rather than filling out documents that asked about her marital sex life. She later lost her job at a Catholic high school when she remarried, and then left Catholicism — for a time thinking that she was putting her soul in danger by doing so.

In my parish, we have many divorced Catholics who left the church precisely over this and joined our church. Many said they didn’t feel welcome anymore or wanted to remarry and wanted it in a church, even if it wasn’t the Catholic Church.

 

[CradleJourney]

No one has suggested this or supports this. No one supports the status quo or believes that things shouldn’t or can’t be made better, but in the end the real question is whether someone who is divorced and remarried can receive communion.

Some of the posts - and I believe the one I originally responded to - do seem to suggest this in my reading of them. As to the real question, we are in agreement, and my apologies if I seemed to support anything different.

And this is the problem: true repentance. Since contrition requires the rejection of one’s sins and the firm resolution not to repeat them that pretty much rules out couples in irregular marriages who intend to continue having sexual relations. This is the sticking point.

Ender

As someone who made the journey from firmly and adamantly pro-choice to being even more firmly and adamantly pro-life, from being a practical atheist to believer, in my experience, this would be a journey for most - not a Saul/Paul moment. They need help to make the “leap” - both through proper teaching, prayer support, and counseling. It’s like telling a food addict that suddenly they must immediately and forever renounce all sugar and processed foods until a total stranger tells them they can add them back again (in proper quantities). While a few passionate souls may accept this - most will immediately back-away, feeling they are being asked to do the impossible.

My wish is for the Church not to change the teaching or “rules” - but to help people to reach the point where they understand that it is possible, necessary, and ultimately their salvation.

I have read many posts on this and other threads that indicate the system itself doesn’t need to become any easier - and should be a great deal harder. And overall, seem to disregard the intense amount of faith and courage required by many (I’m sure some do just ‘work the system’) to follow this process.

Thank you for your polite and respectful response. I hope I can learn to do as well.

 

[ajecphotos]

In my parish, we have many divorced Catholics who left the church precisely over this and joined our church. Many said they didn’t feel welcome anymore or wanted to remarry and wanted it in a church, even if it wasn’t the Catholic Church.

I am sure that God welcomes all back with open arms! Remember, he is all Mercy. He loves us and wants to help us when we fall. I strongly believe that the Catholic Church needs to re evaluate its stance on Marriage / Divorce. I do believe that some things have been done that has alienated many many people from the church.

 

[Ender]

I am sure that God welcomes all back with open arms!

Is his welcoming unconditional or is it in fact dependent on our repentance?

Remember, he is all Mercy.

Is mercy unconditional? Do we expect God’s mercy regardless of our own actions?

He loves us and wants to help us when we fall.

Yes, he does, but he will not save us in spite of ourselves; we have to cooperate in that salvation.

I strongly believe that the Catholic Church needs to re evaluate its stance on Marriage / Divorce.

It would help if you were more specific here. What do you believe should be changed?

I do believe that some things have been done that has alienated many many people from the church.

This is undoubtedly true, but the real question is not whether people are offended by the church’s stance but whether that stance is true. Changing a position simply because people don’t agree with it is to say the truth is not important.

Ender

 

[ajecphotos]

If someone is truly repentant of their sins then i am sure that God will forgive. Remember, he wants us to ask for his forgiveness and mercy etc

 

[kozlosap]

In speaking with other life-long Catholics it appears that they are hopeful for a change in this dogma because of Papa Francis’ life history of living and preaching in the “real world”, away from the rarified environment of Rome. Just exactly how gravely insane is the fact that you can rape and murder, confess your sins to a Holy priest and be allowed to receive the Eucharist without reservation, but if you are divorced and cannot receive an annulment, but are a good person, you are banned from receiving? At my huge parish there are a miniscule number of people who do not receive Holy Communion which leads be to believe that most divorced people are ignoring the dogma. The first step in a remedy to this issue will be making annulment free and streamlining the entire process as the Holy Father has spoken openly about.

 

[Suudy]

Father abandons his wife and kids (maybe she’s just not as pretty as that new 23 year old at work he’s been sleeping with on the side), goes and remarries. Says his first marriage was a “mistake”. Demands the Church recognize his second marriage because his feelings are hurt.

Wife raises her kids on her own, stays faithful to the words of Christ and the teachings of the Church. Where’s the mercy for her? Shouldn’t the Church look at the husband and say, “Your first marriage was valid, you’re a selfish jerk, get back with your wife and children, straighten up, and live up to your responsibilities as a man”? Or at least, “Nope, sorry, we’re not covering up the fact that you’re a terrible person.”

This sound exactly like what happened to my wife’s grandmother. Married with 13 (yes, 13) children. Her husband finds a beautiful young woman and runs off with her. She continues, on her own, to raise the children. She never remarries. According to my mother-in-law, she never said an ill word about her husband or his new wife. 25 years later, he leaves his new wife and comes back to his first. They live the rest of their lives together.

During those 25 years, my wife’s grandmother remained faithful to the Church and to her marriage vows. She continued to attend mass every Wednesday and Sunday. This is the kind of virtue that I think causes Heaven to rejoice. Too bad the NY Times didn’t ask my wife’s mother-in-law what she though about divorce and remarriage. I don’t think this story would have made it into the paper.

 

[Suudy]

Just exactly how gravely insane is the fact that you can rape and murder, confess your sins to a Holy priest and be allowed to receive the Eucharist without reservation, but if you are divorced and cannot receive an annulment, but are a good person, you are banned from receiving?

The remarriage itself isn’t the cause of the bar from communion. As has been pointed out, being committed to living as “brother and sister” (i.e. no sexual relations) does not bar one from communion.

The issue here, is as Ender has pointed out, is the lack of firm amendment to sin no more. Those who have remarried and continue to have sexual activity with their new spouse committing adultery on each occasion. The rapist or murderer cannot continue to rape and murder and continue to receive communion. Nor can the adulterer.

At my huge parish there are a miniscule number of people who do not receive Holy Communion which leads be to believe that most divorced people are ignoring the dogma.

Indeed they are. It’s rampant in may parishes. In the three I’ve attended I have personal knowledge of people who are divorced and remarried without an annulment. And one of those was outspoken in her rejection of Church doctrine.

But it’s not just the remarried that go up. It seems the entire parish goes up. And on Saturday afternoon, there is never a wait for reconciliation. Now, I don’t know whether any of those receiving communion have unforgiven mortal sins. But as Fr Z has pointed out on his blog several times, given the numbers…

The first step in a remedy to this issue will be making annulment free and streamlining the entire process as the Holy Father has spoken openly about.

Fine. Say they get the process for an annulment from say 1 year down to 6 months. Will people wait those 6 months? It seems to me the problem usually is folk that don’t even start the annulment process until AFTER they have remarried. I haven’t read complaints by those who are awaiting tribunal results about the lack of a “pastoral” approach. Look at the article in the OP. Most are all stories of folk already remarried.

 

[ARSpade]

If someone is truly repentant of their sins then i am sure that God will forgive. Remember, he wants us to ask for his forgiveness and mercy etc

You can’t repent of your sins if you intend to go out and do them again tomorrow. This is where this comes in:

. Just exactly how gravely insane is the fact that you can rape and murder, confess your sins to a Holy priest and be allowed to receive the Eucharist without reservation, but if you are divorced and cannot receive an annulment, but are a good person, you are banned from receiving? :

You can murder somebody, feel bad, repent, confess it and be forgiven yes. Because you intend to never murder again (one assumes).

That’s the problem with “second marriages”. Even while you’re confessing that sin you’re still actively committing it. Part of confession is the intention to avoid that sin again (go and sin no more), but you simply can’t do that in a second marriage unless you leave it. It’s an ongoing sin. You’d ask forgiveness for your adultery knowing full well you were going to commit it again (and again and again, and so forth).

It’s like if you confessed to watching pornography while you were watching it on your phone in the confessional. That just wouldn’t fly.

 

[ARSpade]

The first step in a remedy to this issue will be making annulment free and streamlining the entire process as the Holy Father has spoken openly about.

Again, while I think the Church can improve the process, a lot of people seem to be talking about this like they think “improve the process” means “they should rubber stamp every form that comes before them”.

And then it’s just “no fault divorce” with a fancy label on it. Which ignores Christ’s teaching on the matter. Which is probably like one of the 5 clearest statements He ever made.

 

[Suudy]

It’s like if you confessed to watching pornography while you were watching it on your phone in the confessional. That just wouldn’t fly.

I’m not sure it goes quite this far. As I understand it, it isn’t adultery just to be married to another. Adultery lies in the sexual act. But I do understand that as the confessor it is difficult to believe someone confessing adultery that they have a firm amendment to “go and sin no more.” And there is also the issue of potential scandal associated with the re-married receiving communion. But since there are so many doing so now, I’m not sure scandal is actually there.

 

[ProVobis]

I do believe that some things have been done that has alienated many many people from the church.

OTOH, I know several people who have left because among other things Catholics tend to rationalize their sins too much. So it goes both ways.

At my huge parish there are a miniscule number of people who do not receive Holy Communion which leads be to believe that most divorced people are ignoring the dogma.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

OTOH, I know several people who have left because among other things Catholics tend to rationalize their sins too much. So it goes both ways.

Yup, and if the Church changed its view on marriage, (it wont) I and my married spouse would be out the door.

I tell you for me, I am getting pretty tired of the all mercy no justice thing. It is an affront to victims of sin.

 

[ProVobis]

Just exactly how gravely insane is the fact that you can rape and murder, confess your sins to a Holy priest and be allowed to receive the Eucharist without reservation, but if you are divorced and cannot receive an annulment, but are a good person, you are banned from receiving?

Adultery can be forgiven. So can divorce.

 

[SWolf]

This sound exactly like what happened to my wife’s grandmother. Married with 13 (yes, 13) children. Her husband finds a beautiful young woman and runs off with her. She continues, on her own, to raise the children. She never remarries. According to my mother-in-law, she never said an ill word about her husband or his new wife. 25 years later, he leaves his new wife and comes back to his first. They live the rest of their lives together.

During those 25 years, my wife’s grandmother remained faithful to the Church and to her marriage vows. She continued to attend mass every Wednesday and Sunday. This is the kind of virtue that I think causes Heaven to rejoice. Too bad the NY Times didn’t ask my wife’s mother-in-law what she though about divorce and remarriage. I don’t think this story would have made it into the paper.

Beautiful story. I hope the husband did some major penance.

When I was dating my now wife, I remember her telling a story about her father who once had a discussion with his son where his son subtly stated his intention to divorce. The father rose up and shouted “Divorce is not an option.” End of discussion.

When I heard that story, I knew both my parents and her parents would work to ensure our marriage would prosper. And they have.

 

[JimG]

This sound exactly like what happened to my wife’s grandmother. Married with 13 (yes, 13) children. Her husband finds a beautiful young woman and runs off with her. She continues, on her own, to raise the children. She never remarries. According to my mother-in-law, she never said an ill word about her husband or his new wife. 25 years later, he leaves his new wife and comes back to his first. They live the rest of their lives together.

During those 25 years, my wife’s grandmother remained faithful to the Church and to her marriage vows. She continued to attend mass every Wednesday and Sunday. This is the kind of virtue that I think causes Heaven to rejoice. Too bad the NY Times didn’t ask my wife’s mother-in-law what she though about divorce and remarriage. I don’t think this story would have made it into the paper.

Now that is a story that illuminates the permanence and commitment of marriage. Decades ago, the story might not have been so uncommon. I would be interested to see the reaction to the story by the participants at a marriage preparation program.

 

[otjm]

Is his welcoming unconditional or is it in fact dependent on our repentance?

His welcoming is unconditional; but it also takes our response to His welcome.

Is mercy unconditional? Do we expect God’s mercy regardless of our own actions?

Go back and read the Gospel narrative of the son who demanded his inheritance and then squandered it. It is a very interesting passage.

Yes, he does, but he will not save us in spite of ourselves; we have to cooperate in that salvation.

Yes; but the question may be how much do we demand (as opposed to God) in terms of cooperation? Again, read the =Gospel passage.

This is undoubtedly true, but the real question is not whether people are offended by the church’s stance but whether that stance is true. Changing a position simply because people don’t agree with it is to say the truth is not important.

Ender

Perhaps, if one takes a very narrow view. Truth is important; so are a lot of other issues.

 

[Kathie_Bondar]

This sound exactly like what happened to my wife’s grandmother. Married with 13 (yes, 13) children. Her husband finds a beautiful young woman and runs off with her. She continues, on her own, to raise the children. She never remarries. According to my mother-in-law, she never said an ill word about her husband or his new wife. 25 years later, he leaves his new wife and comes back to his first. They live the rest of their lives together.

During those 25 years, my wife’s grandmother remained faithful to the Church and to her marriage vows. She continued to attend mass every Wednesday and Sunday. This is the kind of virtue that I think causes Heaven to rejoice. Too bad the NY Times didn’t ask my wife’s mother-in-law what she though about divorce and remarriage. I don’t think this story would have made it into the paper.

Thank God those day when a woman considers herself nothing but a doormat to her husband are gone. Of course divorce those day was not a possibility, and if somehow she would have been able to get one, she would have been branded a divorce, branded an immoral woman and shunned by society.
Her sad story highlights the advances we made, that girls now can go to school, can continue to higher education, be economically self sufficient and don’t have to rely on handouts from a wayward guy is living it up with another woman

 

[Suudy]

Thank God those day when a woman considers herself nothing but a doormat to her husband are gone. Of course divorce those day was not a possibility, and if somehow she would have been able to get one, she would have been branded a divorce, branded an immoral woman and shunned by society.
Her sad story highlights the advances we made, that girls now can go to school, can continue to higher education, be economically self sufficient and don’t have to rely on handouts from a wayward guy is living it up with another woman

If you ever met her and called her a doormat she might have boxed your ears and had you get a switch from the tree outside. And she was anything but a doormat. She was not branded anything but a virtuous woman in a tough position. And she had the grace and heart to forgive her husband when he returned.

 

[Suudy]

Thank God those day when a woman considers herself nothing but a doormat to her husband are gone. Of course divorce those day was not a possibility, and if somehow she would have been able to get one, she would have been branded a divorce, branded an immoral woman and shunned by society.
Her sad story highlights the advances we made, that girls now can go to school, can continue to higher education, be economically self sufficient and don’t have to rely on handouts from a wayward guy is living it up with another woman

The more I think about your response, the more indignant I become. She did not view herself as a victim and I don’t think she’d suffer others to think she was. She was divorced, but did not view herself or let others view her with any less dignity. Indeed, her story demonstrates just how strong she was as a person and in her faith. Hers is a wonderful story of lifetime love and forgiveness, something that is certainly not demonstrate by the divorce and remarriage culture.