As Vatican Revisits Divorce, Many Catholics Long for Acceptance

[otjm]

That’s not quite all the story.Penance also means repentance. The two meanings of metanoia appear in the significant instruction given by Jesus: "If your brother repents (returns to you), forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him."(140) … (140) Luke 17:3 (JPII, Reconciliatio et Paenitentia)
Ender

My comment wasn’t about the brother who returns; it was about victimology.

 

[ARSpade]

It is the Credo of the church of nice. If it is hard, demands sacrifice, and asks anything from you other than the prescribed marshmallowey feelings of an intoxicating avoidance of truth, then it is just Phariseeism and it keeps us from good vibes. Substitute the Cross for a self-satisfied narcissism and you have somewhat of an answer to your question.

The “Phariseeism” thing is hilarious to me, when they use it in the context of divorce and remarriage and how the Church is too strict. Mostly because of this:

When Jesus finished these words, he left Galilee and went to the district of Judea across the Jordan.
2 Great crowds followed him, and he cured them there.
3 Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?”
…
They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss [her]?”

usccb.org/bible/matthew/19

Yeah, the people for second marriages are actually those closest to the Pharisees.

 

[Corki]

The first step in a remedy to this issue will be making annulment free and streamlining the entire process as the Holy Father has spoken openly about.

These are both good ideas but I am not sure they can be pursued simultaneously. There are some well-off dioceses that can absorb the cost of annulment proceedings but there are even more that cannot. Making the annulment process free, for those poorer dioceses, would mean getting rid of paid advocates and trained judges and relying on volunteers. That would actually slow the process down. The slowest part of the process in countries like the US, from what many have posted here, is the part that the Church actually has little control over. It takes time to fill out the paperwork, gather the documents and wait for the respondent to do the same.

One of the Bishops who spoke before the last synod said that “streamlining” would mean to make it more like the process in the US where the wait is often **only **2-3 years instead of more than 10 which is not uncommon in some other countries.

 

[marymary1975]

Yup, and not only that but now it’s “oh come on now, no one is going to force the Church do do SS"marriages”… That is all civil stuff…

There is a Spanish saying “the country that does not remembSSM.its story is doomed to repeat it.” I can bet anything than in the next 40 years - when people have forgotten about it is only civil stuff- we will have the same situation with SSM

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

There is a Spanish saying “the country that does not remembSSM.its story is doomed to repeat it.” I can bet anything than in the next 40 years - when people have forgotten about it is only civil stuff- we will have the same situation with SSM

I hope I am dead and in heaven by then… Sadly I think that day is coming sooner rather than later.

 

[Tigg]

I posted this in another thread, but it fits here too. I was encouraged this week to read that Card Maradiaga, Francis’ closest adviser and arguably the leader of the liberal side of these debates (along with Cards Kasper and Marx) seemed to back track a bit on the communion for the re-married issue:]

Yes, I agree it appears to be a bit of backpedalling. But this ???

"Many identified as the unique and fundamental topic, issues that were merely secondary. For example, we did not talk only about giving “communion” to re-married Christians —that was a collateral argument, it was never essential. What was really said, and I repeat and emphasize, is that the realities of dissolved and rebuilt families are not an impediment to live and participate in the abundant life of the Church; that the “sacramental communion” is not the only way to vitally participate in the pastoral 'dynamic of the parish community and that every Christian couple that seeks God will find Him because he allows Himself to be found and that every re-married Christian can be a full-time Christian, has a right to be happy, and his house can become also a place where the love of God is born witness.

Does not living the abundant life in the Church include full communion with her and the reception of the sacraments?

"The re-married Christian can be a full-time Christian and has a right to be happy" ??

I must have missed the Catholic perspective of the Cross here and the need to be in a state of sanctifying grace. Is it my lot to be in a perpetual state of confusion now?

 

[McCall1981]

Yes, I agree it appears to be a bit of backpedalling. But this ???

**Does not living the abundant life in the Church include full communion with her and the reception of the sacraments? **

"The re-married Christian can be a full-time Christian and has a right to be happy" ??

I must have missed the Catholic perspective of the Cross here and the need to be in a state of sanctifying grace. Is it my lot to be in a perpetual state of confusion now?

I would think so myself, but since he specifically seperates out communion, he apparently doesn’t include communion

I agree with the rest of what youre saying too, I’m just happily noting that he affirms the remarried cannot receive communion, which, given who he is, I think is a big deal.

 

[graciew]

Yes, I agree it appears to be a bit of backpedalling. But this ???

Does not living the abundant life in the Church include full communion with her and the reception of the sacraments?

"The re-married Christian can be a full-time Christian and has a right to be happy" ??

I must have missed the Catholic perspective of the Cross here and the need to be in a state of sanctifying grace. Is it my lot to be in a perpetual state of confusion now?

Tigg , could we start with an open heart saying how people , virtually anyone , can participate in the church unconditionally ? We seem to be stuck in Communion.
I ll satrtnwith this one : we received warmly whoever turned up to help out with serving . We call it Solidarity area. Help with school activities , fold clothes for our charities , teach computing , help with building , help store food , help visit the sick and the list goes on. No questions about religion , if you were willing ,you were welcome. Not one issue nor problem.
Decorate the church , bake , you name it.
There is room for everyone , we are all children of God.
Happiness is being in God s house. Step by step. Who am I to stand at the door deciding ? Besides , we have our parrish priest. He leads , advices , corrects us.In other words , I am not the owner of the " ball" in this game deciding who plays and who is sitting forever in the benches waiting.
After all , we are called to serve. Servants. Loving ones , happy and joyful.
So yes , everyone has a right to be happy serving.

 

[Kathie_Bondar]

Maybe a doormat whose love and prayers became stepping stones for her husband to get to Heaven.
God must dearly love this amazing " “doormat” lady . Wow. Don t mess with doormats. Thanks for sharing !

If that creep gets to heaven I am not going!

 

[Kathie_Bondar]

Exactly. The issue here is formication. Either formication is a mortal sin or is not. No one who is in current mortal sin can go to communion. Divorced people remarried and having sexual activity are the same as a couple who is not married and are having sex or a married person having an affair. Adultery and fornication are the real issues.

And I agree that here in the US the entire audience in the church gets communion. I don’t know but I can say that I have found many people in the US that argue that you can receive communion while living In mortal sin.

I think the church should stay out of people’s bedrooms. I won’t have an elderly male sworn to celibacy (how many adheres?) tell me how to manage my reproductive system. They usually address the women of course which leaves the question why are they not talking to the man, the driving force of sexual activities.

 

[Tigg]

Tigg , could we start with an open heart saying how people , virtually anyone , can participate in the church unconditionally ? We seem to be stuck in Communion.
I ll satrtnwith this one : we received warmly whoever turned up to help out with serving . We call it Solidarity area. Help with school activities , fold clothes for our charities , teach computing , help with building , help store food , help visit the sick and the list goes on. No questions about religion , if you were willing ,you were welcome. Not one issue nor problem.
Decorate the church , bake , you name it.
There is room for everyone , we are all children of God.
** Happiness is being in God s house.** Step by step. Who am I to stand at the door deciding ? Besides , we have our parrish priest. He leads , advices , corrects us.In other words , I am not the owner of the " ball" in this game deciding who plays and who is sitting forever in the benches waiting.
After all , we are called to serve. Servants. Loving ones , happy and joyful.
So yes , everyone has a right to be happy serving.

There is really nothing in your post I can’t agree with so have your fellowship and serve away with goodwill and charitable works. I, however, in the midst of all that, would hope the primary reason not get lost in the shuffle which is also the mission of the Church - the salvation of souls. Maybe there is one little point in your post I must qualify. Happiness is being in God’s house forever and the Church still teaches sanctifying grace necessary to achieve that.

 

[ProVobis]

If that creep gets to heaven I am not going!

Heaven is where my enemies are not.

 

[graciew]

If that creep gets to heaven I am not going!

That is why Jesus is our advocate , Kathie.
We can be very stern prosecutors.
Be at peace , God knows best.

 

[GEddie]

I think the church should stay out of people’s bedrooms. I won’t have an elderly male sworn to celibacy (how many adheres?) tell me how to manage my reproductive system. They usually address the women of course which leaves the question why are they not talking to the man, the driving force of sexual activities.

Females are often the originators of such activities, as well.

As to your first statement, people’s sexual happiness is not the mission of the Church; eternal truth and life are; and this means that it will repeatedly have to tell folks what they do not want to hear.

ICXC NIKA

 

[graciew]

There is really nothing in your post I can’t agree with so have your fellowship and serve away with goodwill and charitable works. I, however, in the midst of all that, would hope the primary reason not get lost in the shuffle which is also the mission of the Church - the salvation of souls. Maybe there is one little point in your post I must qualify. Happiness is being in God’s house forever and the Church still teaches sanctifying grace necessary to achieve that.

I get you , and agree with you.We are Catholic.
I.am not messing with Communion nor sending underlying messages ,I am not that bright.
I learnt this by experience. I also wrote Step by step.
The Church is not a NGO. We serve the Lord. No less.
But I wasnt born knowing and we learn and improve all the time ( hopefully…).By walking the path with others far better than me.
Excuse my example . If I lead a soccer team , I do not care if you are slow , fast , a good goalie or the worst one. No try outs. If you are willing to join in , we all improve helping each other , training. We play with Jesus in our team , we will win. That is an encouraging message.
But…we are a soccer team. Want yo pmay rugby ,ping pong ,tennis ? Well, we just cant…but the door is wide open and moreover , leave your cel phone here cause we do really wish you join our team.
So again ! More ideas : how can persons who feel rejected understand this loving door is wide open.?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If that creep gets to heaven I am not going!

So let me get this straight --if ‘that creep’ made it to heaven it would not be because he ‘deserved’ it (**none of us, I repeat, none of us ‘deserve heaven’). **It would be because he repented his sins and God forgave him.

But if HE’ gets there, you refuse to ‘share’ heaven with him; he isn’t ‘worthy’ of being in the same place as you.

What makes his sins less worthy of being forgiven than yours, or mine?

Why would you throw away your salvation if ‘he’ were in heaven? A person whom you don’t even know?

But not to go off topic, I’d be glad to address this in a separate thread.

 

[marymary1975]

I think the church should stay out of people’s bedrooms. I won’t have an elderly male sworn to celibacy (how many adheres?) tell me how to manage my reproductive system. They usually address the women of course which leaves the question why are they not talking to the man, the driving force of sexual activities.

This is nothing but the typical “I want to do whatever I want no matter if it is right or wrong without having to hear anybody remind me that what I am doing is wrong.”
And no the church does not “usually” address the man as the teaching is exactly the same for both men and women.

 

[ProVobis]

They usually address the women of course which leaves the question why are they not talking to the man, the driving force of sexual activities.

You don’t believe in the art of subtle seduction?

 

[Ender]

I won’t have an elderly male sworn to celibacy (how many adheres?) tell me how to manage my reproductive system.

If the doctrines of the church on sexual issues were nothing more than the collective opinions of a succession of popes then your position would be the only rational one to take, and their opinions on every other topic would be just as irrelevant. That is of course not what the church believes her doctrines to be. What she claims is very different.The knowledge which the Church offers to man has its origin not in any speculation of her own, however sublime, but in the word of God which she has received in faith. (Fides et Ratio #7)
The choice is actually quite simple: either she is what she claims to be or Christianity is a fraud, but if she is what she claims to be then it is not she who is telling you how to manage your reproductive system but God.

Ender

 

[graciew]

/INDENT]The choice is actually quite simple: either she is what she claims to be or Christianity is a fraud, but if she is what she claims to be then it is not she who is telling you how to manage your reproductive system but God.

Ender

I am sorry to contradict you There is no such " either" nor " fraud ".
It is the best team ever !