As Vatican Revisits Divorce, Many Catholics Long for Acceptance

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graciew said:
I am sorry to contradict you There is no such " either" nor " fraud ".
It is the best team ever !
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If the church is not what she claims to be then what is she? Since she claims to be protected from serious error by the Holy Spirit and capable of discerning the will of God, what are we to believe about her if these things are not true? What sense does it make to believe in an organization about which the best that can be said is that she is sometimes right? If you believe the church has made significant errors - which she surely would have if her doctrines were nothing more than popular votes or an accumulation of personal opinions - then there is no basis for believing anything the church has to say. On the other hand, if you accept that she is in fact the church that Christ initiated on Earth then her doctrines have to be accepted as true…including the ones of which you disapprove. It really is pretty much an all or nothing decision.

Ender
 
Ender said:
If the church is not what she claims to be then what is she? Since she claims to be protected from serious error by the Holy Spirit and capable of discerning the will of God, what are we to believe about her if these things are not true? What sense does it make to believe in an organization about which the best that can be said is that she is sometimes right? If you believe the church has made significant errors - which she surely would have if her doctrines were nothing more than popular votes or an accumulation of personal opinions - then there is no basis for believing anything the church has to say. On the other hand, if you accept that she is in fact the church that Christ initiated on Earth then her doctrines have to be accepted as true…including the ones of which you disapprove. It really is pretty much an all or nothing decision.

Ender
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Ender…I was only praising Christinianity enthusiastically…:confused:
 
Ender said:
If the church is not what she claims to be then what is she? Since she claims to be protected from serious error by the Holy Spirit and capable of discerning the will of God, what are we to believe about her if these things are not true? What sense does it make to believe in an organization about which the best that can be said is that she is sometimes right? If you believe the church has made significant errors - which she surely would have if her doctrines were nothing more than popular votes or an accumulation of personal opinions - then there is no basis for believing anything the church has to say. On the other hand, if you accept that she is in fact the church that Christ initiated on Earth then her doctrines have to be accepted as true…including the ones of which you disapprove. It really is pretty much an all or nothing decision.

Ender
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Ender, I can’t put many words into debate today.
My dad will not live much,he does not know it yet. Right after surgery today a few hours ago,he went to a Church with my mom. So did my grandparents,and my great grandparents and way back till as far as I can trace. That is what I inherited. I embrace it all lovingly. I do not disapprove of anything. And if I do not understand,I know,I really know,the Church does. Period. If I spontaneously turn to God and cry,what else can I say but " I believe"?
 
graciew said:
Ender, I can’t put many words into debate today.
My dad will not live much,he does not know it yet. Right after surgery today a few hours ago,he went to a Church with my mom. So did my grandparents,and my great grandparents and way back till as far as I can trace. That is what I inherited. I embrace it all lovingly. I do not disapprove of anything. And if I do not understand,I know,I really know,the Church does. Period. If I spontaneously turn to God and cry,what else can I say but " I believe"?
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Then it sounds like we’re having a violent agreement. I’m sorry for the problem your father is having.

Ender
 
Please forgive for getting into this fracas so late, I’m newly joined. When my wife of 48 years and I were married in the Church we pledged a sacred vow that our marriage was blessed by God and would be in effect until one of us died. I don’t understand why any of this is even being discussed by the Church, it couldn’t be any more obvious - marriage is a Sacrament entered into until death, no if’s and’s or but’s about it.

There is no prohibition of divorced Catholics receiving communion but there is a prohibition of adulterers receiving communion, divorced/remarried Catholics are committing adultery based on their marriage vows.
 
Ender said:
Then it sounds like we’re having a violent agreement. I’m sorry for the problem your father is having.

Ender
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Thank you , Ender.
Yes , sounds like we are both violently revolutionary :). Thanks again !
 
Some strong words on this subject from Polish Archbishop Hoser:

wdtprs.com/blog/2015/02/polish-archbishop-predicts-ugly-confrontations-at-synod-innovators-have-not-been-idle/

On the delegates who seek to overturn the doctrine of the Church:

“At the Synod there will be a confrontation with delegates from countries where there is already a majority of pathological families – broken families, patchwork families, with only a small percentage of unbroken marriages – and the demand for the provision of Holy Communion for the divorced. In this lies an erroneous assumption, the postulate that God’s mercy is without justice, when you must begin by saying that married and family life must be founded in justice, which as a whole is not taken into account….”

On Pope John Paul II and marriage:

"I will tell you brutally. The Church has betrayed John Paul II. Not the Church as the Bride of Christ, not the Church of our Creed, because John Paul II was an expression, an authentic voice of the Church; but it is the pastoral practice that has betrayed John Paul II.

It is a thesis [theory] to which I subscribe because 40 years of my priesthood has been devoted to marriage and the family, during which time I promoted the theme of “the evangelization of marital intimacy”. In Poland it is and was better in this respect.

In many other countries, due to the contestation to the teachings of the Church, as expressed by Blessed Paul VI, the pastoral care of families was stopped."
 
McCall1981 said:
Some strong words on this subject from Polish Archbishop Hoser:

wdtprs.com/blog/2015/02/polish-archbishop-predicts-ugly-confrontations-at-synod-innovators-have-not-been-idle/

On the delegates who seek to overturn the doctrine of the Church:

“At the Synod there will be a confrontation with delegates from countries where there is already a majority of pathological families – broken families, patchwork families, with only a small percentage of unbroken marriages – and the demand for the provision of Holy Communion for the divorced. In this lies an erroneous assumption, the postulate that God’s mercy is without justice, when you must begin by saying that married and family life must be founded in justice, which as a whole is not taken into account….”

On Pope John Paul II and marriage:

"I will tell you brutally. The Church has betrayed John Paul II. Not the Church as the Bride of Christ, not the Church of our Creed, because John Paul II was an expression, an authentic voice of the Church; but it is the pastoral practice that has betrayed John Paul II.

It is a thesis [theory] to which I subscribe because 40 years of my priesthood has been devoted to marriage and the family, during which time I promoted the theme of “the evangelization of marital intimacy”. In Poland it is and was better in this respect.

In many other countries, due to the contestation to the teachings of the Church, as expressed by Blessed Paul VI, the pastoral care of families was stopped."
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To be honest , what I do not think helps much is that first , things are.presented as a detective story " some delegates… “. " countries where …” and second that he says " the church " but not " the Church as…"…If I can be confusing ,this time he beat me…
The Synod is advisory. The Pope will decide.No matter how hard they pull each other 's hair.( or lack of…).
This was happening , it comes to light. And remarried people and their kids are there so they can be included , they are…, and Communion seems to be the only way they can be included. There are other ways , communities are open in our Church,yet certainlynthe world is huge ans there is always room.for improvemnt in our parishes.
We get to Communion as.it has always been ,and couples can be encouraged to walk this path . We all strive to get to Holy Communion as Jesus deserves, well ,as best we can.
All in all , This debate was necessary for me , there has to be only one and final decision we all follow. Yes , the teaching is here. But if things took a different turn along time for years,it is time we get back on track.
I don 't have the least worry. Stormy but storms clean too.
As for me ,peace.
 
McCall1981 said:
Some strong words on this subject from Polish Archbishop Hoser:

wdtprs.com/blog/2015/02/polish-archbishop-predicts-ugly-confrontations-at-synod-innovators-have-not-been-idle/

On the delegates who seek to overturn the doctrine of the Church:

“At the Synod there will be a confrontation with delegates from countries where there is already a majority of pathological families – broken families, patchwork families, with only a small percentage of unbroken marriages – and the demand for the provision of Holy Communion for the divorced. In this lies an erroneous assumption, the postulate that God’s mercy is without justice, when you must begin by saying that married and family life must be founded in justice, which as a whole is not taken into account….”

On Pope John Paul II and marriage:

"I will tell you brutally. The Church has betrayed John Paul II. Not the Church as the Bride of Christ, not the Church of our Creed, because John Paul II was an expression, an authentic voice of the Church; but it is the pastoral practice that has betrayed John Paul II.

It is a thesis [theory] to which I subscribe because 40 years of my priesthood has been devoted to marriage and the family, during which time I promoted the theme of “the evangelization of marital intimacy”. In Poland it is and was better in this respect.

In many other countries, due to the contestation to the teachings of the Church, as expressed by Blessed Paul VI, the pastoral care of families was stopped."
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Yes! Brutal words for brutal times and God is preparing His army.
The church is a prophetic voice in this world. This is** not **to be understood as some sort of soothsayer forecasting the future. The function of the prophet is the attitude of the consequence of *enlightening *the situation from God’s perspective, reading the sign of the times.
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May all who hope for a change in the current status and in sacramental theology, read every word and understand the role of the prophet of God whose mouth issues words that do not tickle the ears, but rather keep the pathway straight and narrow toward the appointed end.
 
McCall1981 said:
In this lies an erroneous assumption, the postulate that God’s mercy is without justice…
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This comment lies at the heart of the matter. It seems we have come to expect that God will simply overlook our transgressions because he is merciful, that mercy trumps everything. What this has led to is the belief that we don’t really have to amend our ways because we can depend on God to forgive and forget. As Archbishop Hoser pointed out, that’s not a good plan.Q. 177. Why must God be “just” as well as “merciful”?
A. God must be just as well as merciful because He must fulfill His promise to punish those who merit punishment, and because He cannot be infinite in one perfection without being infinite in all. (Baltimore Catechism)
Ender
 
Ender said:
This comment lies at the heart of the matter. It seems we have come to expect that God will simply overlook our transgressions because he is merciful, that mercy trumps everything. What this has led to is the belief that we don’t really have to amend our ways because we can depend on God to forgive and forget. As Archbishop Hoser pointed out, that’s not a good plan.Q. 177. Why must God be “just” as well as “merciful”?
A. God must be just as well as merciful because He must fulfill His promise to punish those who merit punishment, and because He cannot be infinite in one perfection without being infinite in all. (Baltimore Catechism)
Ender
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I would like to bring something to duscussion about justice and mercy.
Not to have an argument with anyone ! Just that if we do not believe in our hearts that God is merciful we en d up being our own judges.
And we do not go to Jesus to be forgiven ,and…end of the story , we give up.
I know this is familiar to most of us. But many people may not really know that God helps us and forgives us and gives us strength no matter how disastrous we have been.
And this we have to share , I believe , we can t alone …Reconciliation or Confession has to be seen as a " love story " if you will , where we go to be embraced in God s love.
This is what I have been trying to say. We are not born knowing , we learn and it is beautiful.
I have to go now!
God bless !
 
graciew said:
Not to have an argument with anyone ! Just that if we do not believe in our hearts that God is merciful we en d up being our own judges.
And we do not go to Jesus to be forgiven ,and…end of the story , we give up.
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That’s not what is being said. After all in the Canon of the Mass, the priest prays to a “clementissime Pater” (most merciful Father). IMO the belief in a “just” God is along the lines of Pascal’s Wager. If we believe in a punishing God (isn’t that what we say in an Act of Contrition?) and act accordingly, we are covered. OTOH, If we start to believe God doesn’t punish and we can sin all we want without consequences, then we will be in a whole heap of trouble come Judgement Day.
 
God does punish but God is also most merciful! Just look at the message of DIVINE MERCY as written by St Faustina!!
 
I don’t see it as a problem of mercy vs justice. Of course, God is infiniteliy just and infinitely merciful, and they are not contradictory.

I see it simply as a matter of whether the Church beleives it can countermand the command of Christ regarding the permanence of marriage.

There are all sorts of pastoral provisions that can be made for persons in difficult situations. There is no pastoral provision for contradicting Christ.
 
JimG said:
There are all sorts of pastoral provisions that can be made for persons in difficult situations. There is no pastoral provision for contradicting Christ.
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And once again the ship of warm and fuzzy vagueness founders on the shoals of unchangeable truth.

Ender
 
ProVobis said:
That’s not what is being said. After all in the Canon of the Mass, the priest prays to a “clementissime Pater” (most merciful Father). IMO the belief in a “just” God is along the lines of Pascal’s Wager. If we believe in a punishing God (isn’t that what we say in an Act of Contrition?) and act accordingly, we are covered. OTOH, If we start to believe God doesn’t punish and we can sin all we want without consequences, then we will be in a whole heap of trouble come Judgement Day.
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ProVobis , there are people who may not have a clue of what this means. There are. They believe we are angel who know it all and go to Mass because we are holy. I am not inventing it. And the first mistake we make they go " hey ! And you are Catholic ? "
The thread talks about persons who long to be accepted and we either get Raid and spray them away or " peace ,love and rock and roll " everything goes.
And none of both is helpful.
If people long to be accepted they ve got to start by learning that you and I are not saints. We have been forgiven and we are forgiven all the time. The road is not easy, but it is worth it.
Ok. That is my problem, I think these are street people. If they know that much , they know what they have to do.
 
Ender said:
And once again the ship of warm and fuzzy vagueness founders on the shoals of unchangeable truth.

Ender
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Not me.
I am dealing with the thread with teaching as it is. Right her right now.
How can we help them feel and know they are accepted ?
 
graciew said:
ProVobis , there are people who may not have a clue of what this means. There are. They believe we are angel who know it all and go to Mass because we are holy. I am not inventing it. And the first mistake we make they go " hey ! And you are Catholic ? "
The thread talks about persons who long to be accepted and we either get Raid and spray them away or " peace ,love and rock and roll " everything goes.
And none of both is helpful.
If people long to be accepted they ve got to start by learning that you and I are not saints. We have been forgiven and we are forgiven all the time. The road is not easy, but it is worth it.
Ok. That is my problem, I think these are street people. If they know that much , they know what they have to do.
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Your concerns are valid. I don’t have a simple answer, no one does, but I say an Act of Contrition every night before I go to bed. Among other prayers, that is.
 
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