Ask a Pagan (Again!)

[Lokabrenna]

Lokabrenna does a good job of differentiating between her specific position, those of the group she’s in, those of other groups she has come across, and those of paganism in general.

Well, I try! Sometimes I wish I could draw a diagram for people instead of trying to explain the divisions between groups. I do hope it’s understood that I’m not an official spokesperson for anyone but myself and what I say isn’t going to be applicable for all groups or individuals.

 

[MorningSong51]

Because it seems to me that these two believe that they create truth based upon what they choose to believe. To put it another way…based upon the way they’ve answered my questions they seem to say that if they believe X then that makes X true. When they cease to believe X then X ceases to be true. One of them even made the absurd assertion that it is possible for religious claims to be both true and false at the same time.

If a person is willing to believe that “truth” is whatever they want it to be, or that a particular proposition can be both true and false at the same time, then there’s really not much use in talking religion with them at all. Maybe we could talk SEC football or golf or craft beer. But trying to get a grip on what is truth when the people you are speaking with believe that they can create and destroy truth by virtue of what they believe is like trying to nail Jello to a wall.

Peace,

Clip:

I believe, so it is the truth? If many believe so, it is so? …So if I believe in God, God is real. If I do not believe in God, there is no God? Does that make it a truth?

So Legal Eagle,would that mean since they were once within the Christian religion but then chose to become Wiccan or Pagan they now found a belief and truth that couldn’t be found in their initial religion - because some of the them knew scripture backwards and forwards? Our truths center on a belief that has been taught, educated, highly promoted within our own families, and this faith & belief is a continuation to the next generation. These truths that we know are based upon our own good & bad experiences which have been embedded into our everyday life - what makes us closer to God? We learn from both even when our faith is tried, so do we pick up everything and say I think I’ll go on to a completely opposite religion.

Similarly my understanding of God is not 100% but that doesn’t mean my faith will remain limitless. As we know, that in time it will grow but for right now it only exists to my limited knowledge - as the scripture says “5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.” Is belief defined by knowledge and faith in the level of confidence that approaches that certainty.

Yes, Peace! Because our next generation is having some problems with this.
Mary

 

[John7]

poor Jharek cringing…I notice that you’ve cringed at some of my other
posts…interesting, when it involves use of scripture that you do not approve of…
hmmm, Jharek’s thought patterns. No biggy, you keep right on telling me how you
feel when I post something objectionable, ok.

“…the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.” (1Jo 5:19)

oops

 

[MorningSong51]

Many people in this thread have criticized this response as too harsh, as it is atypical of what many Catholics would say today… I have to say the question is a relevant one and totally in line with the scriptures, with the apostles, and with Christ himself. Remember that Jesus said that those who believe in him and are baptized will be saved, and those who reject him will be condemned (Mark 16:16). The Church in Vatican II said that God is merciful and will provide for those who, for example, never came to a full understanding of the gospels, and rejected them through no fault of their own… but how many people today can truly claim this? From what I understand some of the pagans in this forum are ex-Catholics.
Vatican II is not to be interpreted “everyone can get to heaven by following their own respective religion.” This is contrary to both scripture and tradition of the Church. No, I am not to judge whether a non-believer is in a state of grace, but that also means I am not to assume that he/she is the way many people do… I would rather play it safe and evangelize, and pray for their conversion. After all it is the natural state of man to be separated from God and his Church. Jesus said that few would enter into the kingdom of heaven… I wish it were not true but sadly these are the words of Our Lord himself… how I wish I could be an optimist.

CompSciGuy;

I really liked the fact that you felt the need to express what many Catholics would be critical of in regards to the Wiccans and Pagans. Unfortunately, Pope Benedict has expressed that they cease to be our brothers and sisters only when they stop saying “Our Father” (to quote: The pope reminded those separated from the Catholic Church of the words of St Augustine: Whether they wish it or not, the are our brethren. The cease to be our brethren only when they stop saying “Our Father”) He might of meant this in one regards - but it still applies to the many Catholic who are affiliated with these groups.

Your kinds words are very true “that God is merciful and will provide for those who, for example, never came to a full understanding of the gospels, and rejected them through no fault of their own… but how many people today can truly claim this? From what I understand some of the pagans in this forum are ex-Catholics.” However, these ex-Catholics or even ex-Christian members are here within this forum for a reason, and what might that be? How should anyone feel about these non-members of the Christian community coming back only to announce that they are willing to answer any questions about the Pagan or Wiccan religion and to also announce that they were once Christian? How very sad - what are we to say to all that? and then giving advice on how to stop “attack magic” with (and as I said) Wiccan or Pagan methods and according to their standards - so are we to turn to them whenever this happens? One Wiccan group giving advice on how to stop another? and yet, we’re Christians?

 

[MorningSong51]

I don’t agree with her on many points as well and yes, she converses very politely with everyone on this thread, but what is the point of these conversations? to ask questions about Paganism or being a Wiccan? You’re going to get some flack about it, which is very normal. If someone/anyone went on a Wiccan or Pagan website and started a thread on Christianity and was very polite in answering questions - but I told the group that I was once a Wiccan or a Pagan, how do you think the conversation would go? Either they would think I was trying to evangelize to them or that I was throwing it up in their faces about converting to Christianity and that I knew the Wiccan Rede, You must state to the Covenant that you are Wiccan or a Witch.

I would scare if knowone said anything out of scripture on this thread!

 

[MorningSong51]

(name removed by moderator) - strike that last remark, I was in a upper room, a sort of attic - once, on St Paddy’s day as some of the members were looking toward my direction very unkindly, so I walked down the stairs and out the door - someone from the bar warned me not to go to that party. Ummm, St Patrick’s day - St Patrick’s day? What was the story on St Patrick? :irish3:

 

[MorningSong51]

Amber, what else would I be using that verse for? Hmmmmmm. I could quote from Isaiah, but I think - that you understand. There are many things I could introduce - but I won’t…and by the way, thank you for letting me know what’s expected on the membership, I will ask my cousin if he paid his dues - you don’t realize what you just said. Again, I really cry over my grandmother, on my father’s side of the family when she died, my father died the next month and then his sister a month afterwards, then her other son.

Bible Study Tools Our Library Commentaries John Gill’s Exposition of the Luke 11:34

The light of the body is the eye
The Vulgate Latin and all the eastern versions read “the light of thy body is thine eye”. The sense is, that as the eye gives light, to the body, and the several members of it, by which they are guided and directed; so the understanding is the light of the soul, and the guide to all the powers and faculties of it;
**
therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light:**
as when the eye is free from vicious humours, and its sight is clear, the whole body reaps the advantage of it, and is perfectly illuminated by it; so when the eye of the understanding is opened and enlightened by the Spirit of God,** into the truths of the Gospel, and a single regard is had unto them, and to the glory of Christ in them, the whole soul is filled with light, joy, and comfort:**

but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness;
as when the eye of the body is attended with any bad humours that hinder the sight, all the members of it are in darkness; so, when the understanding is darkened through the blindness and ignorance there is in men, with respect to Gospel truths, all the powers and faculties of the soul are in a very miserable and uncomfortable condition. The 35th and 36th verses are not in Beza’s most ancient copy.

Luke 11:35

Take heed therefore
By attending to the light of the Gospel, shining in the ministration of it, and do not neglect and despise it:

that the light which is in thee be not darkness;
lest being given up to a judicial blindness and hardness of heart, not only the light of nature, which the Jews had in common with the Gentiles, but even that notional light and knowledge of divine things, which they had by being favoured with an external revelation, the writings of the Old Testament, should be lost.

 

[MorningSong51]

MorningSong51;8547011:

There have been cases of individuals who think that they can use religion as an excuse to have sex with minors. These people are criminals, plain and simple, it doesn’t matter what belief system they hold.

so true, that they are criminals and the members should sound the alarm on them. Good thing, they did! Some religious groups took the responsibility and the members (as very sad as it was) made them accountable for the actions. Although I can’t say that all religious groups acted responsibly. Individuals that are in an authoritative position - and it doesn’t have to be in a religious group either, normally slip through the cracks. Some mother can be sitting out side in the waiting room - while their children are being abused within the their office - or so I heard.

 

[Lokabrenna]

I don’t agree with her on many points as well and yes, she converses very politely with everyone on this thread, but what is the point of these conversations? to ask questions about Paganism or being a Wiccan? You’re going to get some flack about it, which is very normal. If someone/anyone went on a Wiccan or Pagan website and started a thread on Christianity and was very polite in answering questions - but I told the group that I was once a Wiccan or a Pagan, how do you think the conversation would go? Either they would think I was trying to evangelize to them or that I was throwing it up in their faces about converting to Christianity and that I knew the Wiccan Rede, You must state to the Covenant that you are Wiccan or a Witch.

Well, a lot of Pagans know a lot about Christianity already, so it would be kind of pointless to start a thread about Christianity, but Christians are welcome on many of the forums where I post (as long as they don’t proselytize, which is true for everyone on the board anyways).

I didn’t start my first AaP thread because I thought everything would be sunshine and rainbows here. TBH, the more “preachy” comments don’t bother me very much (although some of them are probably skirting the rules a little, I’d have to check).

 

[Contarini]

Throwing scripture verses at Pagans isn’t going to make you any friends, either! You quoting the Bible at me is like me quoting the Eddas at you, neither of us is going to get anywhere because we don’t acknowledge each other’s books as having any authority over us.

Indeed. Although personally I always welcome a good quotation from the Eddas, so quote away! Preferably in Old Norse, even if I don’t understand it

Edwin

 

[Barbkw]

I’d dare you to go on a forum like The Cauldron and make some of the generalizations you’ve made about Pagan women, but that would be very cruel of me, very, very cruel.

Thanks be to God, the Holy Spirit guided me out of the barren desert (of my own creation.)

Why on Earth, would I willingly walk back into another antiChrist void - such as a visit to your “Cauldron”?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Indeed. Although personally I always welcome a good quotation from the Eddas, so quote away! Preferably in Old Norse, even if I don’t understand it

Edwin

I actually don’t know a word of Old Norse, but I bet I can find someone who does! There are a minority of people who actually learn the relevant language for ritual, but I’m content with plain ol’ modern English (which is in the same family anyways).

Since you asked, here’s a random stanza from the Hávamál, in English:

An ignorant man | thinks that all he knows,
When he sits by himself in a corner;
But never what answer | to make he knows,
When others with questions come.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Thanks be to God, the Holy Spirit guided me out of the barren desert (of my own creation.)

Why on Earth, would I willingly walk back into another antiChrist void - such as a visit to your “Cauldron”?

Well, I said I would dare you to visit, but then I said that would be cruel of me. I do tend to reference that site a lot when talking non-Pagans, both the forum and the Pagan Primer they host.

 

[Captain_America]

'brenna:

could it be that your paganism is just another form of postmodern cultural consumerism?

 

[Lokabrenna]

'brenna:

could it be that your paganism is just another form of postmodern cultural consumerism?

Last I checked, consumerism wasn’t a religion (although it might fit the definition of of an “implicit religion”) I’d say a lot of us consume as much as the average non-Pagan, but there is a growing population who try to live as “off the grid” as possible. Homesteading isn’t for everyone, though. I’m a city kid at heart.

 

[MorningSong51]

Well, a lot of Pagans know a lot about Christianity already, so it would be kind of pointless to start a thread about

Christianity, but Christians are welcome on many of the forums where I post (as long as they don’t proselytize, which is true for everyone on the board anyways).

You mean we really should or shouldn’t proselytize on how to really teach someone how to wart off evil spirit or attacks with christian ideals? The post on how to do all that was rather interesting:

***In either instance, the best defense is:

---

• Ground and centre;

• Set up a protective barrier;

• Reinforce that barrier every day;

• As you increase your internal strength, increase the range and density of that protective barrier;

How to ground and centre depends upon your belief system. (Centre: (v. t.) To collect to a point; to concentrate.(v. i.) To be placed in a center; to be central. (v. i.) To be collected to a point; to be concentrated; to rest on, or gather about, as a center. (n. & v.) See Center.(v. t.) To form a recess or indentation for the reception of a center. (v. t.) To place or fix in the center or on a central point.() Alt. of seal() Alt. of punch)

Again, we fight fire with fire - we get one wiccan/pagan group against another. You know, another thing that I said was that our truths center on a belief,trust and faith in Christ which has been taught, educated, highly promoted within our own families, and this faith & belief is a continuation to our children. These truths that we know are based upon our own good and bad experiences. We “believe” is expressed verbally at our mass when we say the Nicene creed, this to be the absolute truth, we have faith as faith stands for the habit or virtue by which we assent to those truths (those truths are internalized within us) that knowledge is integrated into our heart and actions. Actions - from those truths, is very important in how we will act upon those truths.

Like you, you have many beliefs within your own religion but its not a religion when people are seeking to go to your religion to help settle a family disagreement, dispute or fight. You can’t profit from them, then it isn’t a religion - is it? When someone from this board “feels” that this lands in your area - do you we go to your religion to fix it? What you tell others to do - only reinforces, rituals according to your standards. When Christians are being attacked - we use Wiccan methods? So where are the truths about our faith and religion - what does it tell that person or others? That is a form of proselytizing. You don’t have quote your book and I don’t have quote mine, what the bottom line to all this is faith, belief and trust in Christ. If you don’t have it - pray for it! Like the good book says “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!” -

Another thought was given, we believe and so it is? I believe, so it is the truth? If many believe so, it is so? …So if I believe in God, God is real. If I do not believe in God, there is no God? Does that make it a truth? So when a situation comes along and we don’t know how to deal with it - then does the truth of our faith and belief start to emerge and when our faith fails us sometimes, and it will - we look for the opposition to it, no faith in God? In the Christian faith, we are to strengthen each other. Even in your religion, you give strength to the members - and when one falls away then the rest feel the lost - Romans 12:5, “so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” and so with the Pagan and Wiccan coven, it is the same thing…When I used the symbol of a marriage, with Amber, that is exactly what (and on both ends) a form of one body but we are united in Christ.

We really have to seek them out in our faith and to go to those people who are either specialized in the field and to rely upon their help. Also, again, I would be surprised and I think you would be too (especially if the situation was reversed) that know one said anything out of scripture on this thread! You know that’s a typical - especially from members who know that you were once Christian.

Proselytize on a Wiccan forum - well, if you can come to a Christian forum with a thread title “Ask a Pagan”, why not start a thread on the Caldron forum on “Ask a Christian”… You presents here on this forum can be considered as proselytizing, just in the same way the Wiccan would take offense, especially if that Christian was once Wiccan, especially taking a chance they might revert back.

 

[frnate]

Pagans reject the notion that there is such a thing as universal truth

And do the Pagans who reject the notion of universal truth hold this rejection as being true universally?

++N

 

[Lokabrenna]

And do the Pagans who reject the notion of universal truth hold this rejection as being true universally?

++N

Very few things are “universals” when it comes to Paganism, but generally speaking, I’d say it’s pretty close to universal.

 

[frnate]

Very few things are “universals” when it comes to Paganism, but generally speaking, I’d say it’s pretty close to universal.

(So much for the Socratic Method…)

Ok, my point, that you are either ignoring or not getting, is that any rejection of universal truth is self defeating. In order for there to be no universal truth it must be universally true that there is no universal truth, thus nullifying the assertion that there is no universal truth. It must be universally true that there is universal truth but it cannot be true that there is no universal truth. It is a logical impossibility.

++N

 

[Lokabrenna]

(So much for the Socratic Method…)

Ok, my point, that you are either ignoring or not getting, is that any rejection of universal truth is self defeating. In order for there to be no universal truth it must be universally true that there is no universal truth, thus nullifying the assertion that there is no universal truth. It must be universally true that there is universal truth but it cannot be true that there is no universal truth. It is a logical impossibility.

++N

What I mean by “universal truth” is the idea that there is “one true way”, “one size fits all”, one religion that best fits everyone. That’s not true for modern Pagans–or even polytheists in general–when it comes to belief. There’s no one Truth, there are many truths, in the plural.

Besides, I’ve never been one for philosophy, Classical or otherwise, it just strikes me as a whole bunch of men (and it is usually men) talking about nothing terribly important or practical, YMMV.