Ask a Pagan

[Kallisto]

However he’s sharing what he believes.

btw, I’m a she.

 

[jerry_joseph]

I don’t know if you’re quoting someone or if that’s your own take on paganism, but it’s not correct. Not all pagans are polytheist for one thing. For another “natural forces as personified Gods” is not accurate either. Rather manifestations of their power, what they wield and hold dominion over. Zeus is not lightning, he wields it; Poseidon isn’t the oceans, it’s his realm.

Yes, that is what I said. Why paganism drives away a human being from the creator. Through natural forces you can see the power of his creator. If you feels that a particular creation is good and powerful eg:Sun, Wind etc. A christian realizes the power of God through that. We will not worship that creation, but we will thank God for providing us with that Good thing for our goodness. Paganism presents natural forces as personified Gods. In some pagan religions they are controlled by different pagan Gods - For eg: Zeus controlls lightning etc. Here is the problem of paganism. It drives away human beings from realizing one true God who created and controls all these and gives its credit to imaginary Gods.

No one god is no more “true” than another. The only distinction is through the believer. What your sacred text asserts as true is as wholly irrelevant to other gods and other religions as their sacred texts would be to you and yours. As for universal truths, if one looks beyond his own biases he’ll find they are universal in that they are found to parallel among various religions. No one religion holds the trademark on divinity or Truth.

There is only one God. That is God. When Moses asked what his name, he didn’t told that my name is Thomas or Francis or any other individuals name. He told I am who I am. He is Yahweh ( I am who I am) . God is whom God is. He is unknowable. But through Jesus - Incarnation of word of God (Son), we can realize him. This video will help you to understand christian view of God.

youtube.com/watch?v=2KSx6nhUJvo&feature=share

 

[Skadi]

There is only one God. That is God. When Moses asked what his name, he didn’t told that my name is Thomas or Francis or any other individuals name. He told I am who I am. He is Yahweh ( I am who I am) . God is whom God is. He is unknowable. But through Jesus - Incarnation of word of God (Son), we can realize him. This video will help you to understand christian view of God.

youtube.com/watch?v=2KSx6nhUJvo&feature=share

But this thread isnt about the christian view of god. You seem to be here to exert that view and have no interest in asking questions about the views this thread was intended to explain.

 

[Skadi]

Where is this comming from? Do you really believe that when we pray and look at a Statue of Jesus we are praying to the Statue or the Statue is truly Jesus? Come on now.

We can have statues of Jesus. We don’t believe the Statues are Jesus or that we receive power or something through them.

So as you can clearly see its not idolatry or false idols for Catholics. Lets get that straight.

Pagans do not believe their statutes are god either, but merely representations. If an Idol is a physical object than I am certainly no Idol worshiper. Now if by Idol you mean a diety other than YHWH then yes I would be an Idol worshiper, but that is generaly not taken to be the meaning of the word. Some people even consider Idol worship to be the worship of drugs, alcohol, money, pleasure, or one self, via addiction. I think there was a post of that nature earlier in this thread. I think people should establish the what you mean by Idol worship.

 

[onenow1]

I think the christian god is pretty verbal in his demands for worship. its either his way or a firey pit for eternity. Thats quite a bit more demanding and severe than other religions.

Indeed ! And my temporal father was also pretty demanding, and I suspect our spiritual Father, should also be demanding to prerpare for life with the Holy Trinity,the perfect family, and the promise of Jesus if we only obey.

God Bless

 

[joe371]

Kallisto;10866712 And they too strive to do good to the best of their abilities and live lovingly and rightly, something also core to many non-Christian ways.

Absolutely.

Catechism of the CC:

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[joe371]

Kallisto;10866679]Asking others about what exactly, types of miracles, deities manifesting? So you’ve concluded from your finite research (as I assume you don’t have the time or finances to do exhaustive research) that you have empirical evidence that others of other religions don’t have profound experiences?

I never said that! I said that I have been asking and searching for 20 years and have come up empty handed. Perhaps you can assist?

Even those believers who were present at the alleged miracle of the sun didn’t see the same thing, or anything at all, nor was there anything scientific to corroborate that something extraordinary had occurred.

If thousands of eye-witness testimony is not proof than nothing is, other than God appearing to you personally. Some didn’t see the sun dancing and defying natural laws? Proof please???

 

[joe371]

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever if you believe God is all-powerful and all-right. Absolutely no sense at all.

This makes no sense?

God revealed to Satan that someday a human being (Messiah) would bring Satan and his kingdom down - total annihilation, so it is reasonable to conclude, from that moment on, Satan would seek to destroy the Messiah as soon as he found out who that human was…

Satan wanting to destroy the messiah and His followers makes no sense to you? OK. I seriously doubt that anything said here by a catholic will be convincing to you. After all, we only talk about teachings promulgated by the CC. What else would anyone expect…

 

[joe371]

Is there some reason that it can’t be both??

The Holy Trinity and pagan Gods? Well, if the Holy Trinity is the truth then it is impossible as per the holy Trinity via God’s church. If you are right then probably not because pagan believers reject the Trinity. Every person finds out eventually…

 

[Kallisto]

Yes, that is what I said. Why paganism drives away a human being from the creator.

It does no such thing. Paganism fosters direct communing with the divine. What outsiders think they know and what is the reality of these religions is clearly quite different.

Through natural forces you can see the power of his creator. If you feels that a particular creation is good and powerful eg:Sun, Wind etc. A christian realizes the power of God through that.

You’re not familiar with cosmologies outside of your own, yet are making blanketed statements as though you understand them.

Paganism presents natural forces as personified Gods.

Incorrect, but I’ve pointed that out before, including not all pagans being polytheistic - Did you inadvertently miss it or are choosing to ignore in order to maintain your argument?

In some pagan religions they are controlled by different pagan Gods - For eg: Zeus controlls lightning etc. Here is the problem of paganism. It drives away human beings from realizing one true God who created and controls all these and gives its credit to imaginary Gods.

Except it doesn’t take us from the creator at all. We just don’t worship the same god you do. It’s an exercise in futility to attempt a discussion when it’s erroneously assumed only one religion and one particular god is “right” and all others are “wrong” even though there’s nothing to support that position beyond it’s simply what adherents choose to believe.

There is only one God. That is God.

There’s only one god you follow, this is true. But certainly not the only or true god, no matter how many videos you link to. The need to denounce that which one either fears and/or does not understand doesn’t change their divinity or existence.

 

[Kallisto]

Absolutely.

Catechism of the CC:

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

That’s a lovely sentiment promoting one’s belief but is not applicable outside of Catholicism. One does not need to specifically follow your Christ in order to be moved by the divine, to do good and to reach a blessed after life.

 

[Kallisto]

I never said that! I said that I have been asking and searching for 20 years and have come up empty handed. Perhaps you can assist?

Sorry, but I asked a question, I didn’t make a statement. But I’ll attempt to be more specific: What does your asking and searching consist of, and with whom? By what criteria? What have you asked about - miracles, manifestation of the divine?

If thousands of eye-witness testimony is not proof than nothing is, other than God appearing to you personally. Some didn’t see the sun dancing and defying natural laws? Proof please???

It’s proof that there were people who believed with every fiber of their being that they saw something and, as is human nature, mixed in with them were those who did not see anything but not wanting to appear lacking claimed to have seen something, those who didn’t see anything and admitted it, along with some who were probably hysterical with religious fervor, coupled with physiological factors from looking at something for a prolonged period of time.

Fr. Stanley Jaki of Seton Hall University wrote about it in God & the Sun at Fatima that many did not see anything at all, while others who believed they saw something differed on what it was they saw. Prof. Auguste Meessen from the Catholic University at Leuven wrote in Apparitions and Miracles of the Sun that those what those who believed they saw something could be explained by optical effects caused by staring at the sun, and that such phenomena can’t be taken to be literal.

 

[Kallisto]

I seriously doubt that anything said here by a catholic will be convincing to you. After all, we only talk about teachings promulgated by the CC. What else would anyone expect…

I think that should be assumed from the start, conversely nothing said here by a Pagan will be convincing to Catholics.

Thus why it’s fool’s folly for anyone to go into discussion with the objective to convince or convert the other, or expecting that one’s own religion be the yardstick by which any other is measured. It’s absurd and a complete waste of everyone’s time.

Gaining understanding of something other doesn’t mean agreeing or adopting with it. And negating something just because it doesn’t comply with one’s own is hubris.

 

[joe371]

That’s a lovely sentiment promoting one’s belief but is not applicable outside of Catholicism. One does not need to specifically follow your Christ in order to be moved by the divine, to do good and to reach a blessed after life.

If Jesus Christ is who he says he is then he is your Christ too, even if you deny it. Of course I respect your right to reject him as fictional character. Everyone has a right to believe what they want…

 

[joe371]

Kallisto;10868664]Sorry, but I asked a question, I didn’t make a statement. But I’ll attempt to be more specific: What does your asking and searching consist of, and with whom? By what criteria? What have you asked about - miracles, manifestation of the divine?

Asking friends e.g. Muslims, Jews Buddhists etc., if there have been miracles worked…googling as well…Perhaps you know of some miracles??? They don’t have to be as obvious as Fatima.

It’s proof that there were people who believed with every fiber of their being that they saw something and, as is human nature, mixed in with them were those who did not see anything but not wanting to appear lacking claimed to have seen something,

Even die-hard atheists working for O Século newspaper saw and believed, and wrote about it. Why not believe them?

those who didn’t see anything and admitted it, along with some who were probably hysterical with religious fervor, coupled with physiological factors from looking at something for a prolonged period of time.

Religious fervor is your answer for believers. What’s your response regarding the scoffing non-believers?

Fr. Stanley Jaki of Seton Hall University wrote about it in God & the Sun at Fatima that many did not see anything at all, while others who believed they saw something differed on what it was they saw. Prof. Auguste Meessen from the Catholic University at Leuven wrote in Apparitions and Miracles of the Sun that those what those who believed they saw something could be explained by optical effects caused by staring at the sun, and that such phenomena can’t be taken to be literal.

I will check them out and see if they actually said that there were people who were at the Cova who saw nothing!

 

[joe371]

I think that should be assumed from the start, conversely nothing said here by a Pagan will be convincing to Catholics.

Thus why it’s fool’s folly for anyone to go into discussion with the objective to convince or convert the other, or expecting that one’s own religion be the yardstick by which any other is measured. It’s absurd and a complete waste of everyone’s time.

Gaining understanding of something other doesn’t mean agreeing or adopting with it. And negating something just because it doesn’t comply with one’s own is hubris.

I never suggested that “it’s fool’s folly for anyone to go into discussion…” :nope:

 

[joe371]

Fr. Stanley Jaki of Seton Hall University wrote about it in God & the Sun at Fatima that many did not see anything at all, while others who believed they saw something differed on what it was they saw. Prof. Auguste Meessen from the Catholic University at Leuven wrote in Apparitions and Miracles of the Sun that those what those who believed they saw something could be explained by optical effects caused by staring at the sun, and that such phenomena can’t be taken to be literal.

Perhaps you could provide some quotes, like these; first post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=409113

 

[Kallisto]

If Jesus Christ is who he says he is then he is your Christ too, even if you deny it. Of course I respect your right to reject him as fictional character. Everyone has a right to believe what they want…

Do you not realize the fallacy of that statement?

I mentioned earlier in this thread that my personal views are somewhere along the lines of kathenotheism/henotheism. For the record, not all religions make it their business to denounce other religions in order to feel to puff themselves up, nor need to malign other gods as “false” or fictional. I don’t follow every deity simply because they exist, but I don’t have need to negate them either. That doesn’t mean they’re “my” gods too. By your line of reasoning Odin or Zeus or Cernunnos is yours too, whether you accept them or like it or not because someone else insists they are.

As you say, everyone has a right to believe what they want. It’s quite another to be denigrating and bigoted.

 

[Kallisto]

I never suggested that “it’s fool’s folly for anyone to go into discussion…” :nope:

Nor did I.

I did say, “it’s fool’s folly for anyone to go into discussion with the objective to convince or convert the other, or expecting that one’s own religion be the yardstick by which any other is measured. It’s absurd and a complete waste of everyone’s time.”

 

[joe371]

Nor did I.

I did say, “it’s fool’s folly for anyone to go into discussion with the objective to convince or convert the other, or expecting that one’s own religion be the yardstick by which any other is measured. It’s absurd and a complete waste of everyone’s time.”