Ask a Pagan

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mlamg said:
It’s certainly not the Catholic position and I never said it was. I do wonder, though, where faith comes into play for you, if you believe that the whole bible is completely true and the word of God. Why did Paul talk about having faith in the risen Christ, and why did Jesus stress how important faith is? It’s simple to follow a fact. Facts are indisputable. Where is your faith?

Obviously, if you are following a 100% truth, you need 0% faith.
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Also again if I may its not the bible its the Church that we believe is 100% true. The bible does not teach.

You can read something in the bible and see it one way, the same exact passage I can see differently and another and so on and so on.

Although the bible is the true word of God, it must be interprated in the Light or shall we say truth of the Holy Spirit.

It is our faith in the truth of the Holy Spirit that we live.

Just because you have truth does not mean you have faith. The Apostle Judas had 100% truth right in front of him before his eyes and still betrayed Jesus. Truth and faith mean nothing if you do not choose to follow them. It is your own free will to choose truth and put your faith in Christ.

He gave us our own free will to choose life or death. Life of the soul is to follow Christ, Death of the soul is to reject him. Its our choice.

Jesus says you either follow the light which is his truth, or you follow darkness which is a lie. But he still loved you enough to give you the free will to do as you like.
 
mlamg said:
Wow, complete circular reasoning and word salad. I just don’t have time for this forum anymore. Not one answer here ever makes sense. It’s like trying to hit a target that keeps moving and moving…

Take care, all.
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We call it the word of God. 😃 And it all makes sense to us. Its just really really hard to live by. But we keep trying and praying and with his grace will make it.
 
If I might interject, as I didn’t come here to comment on anyone else’s beliefs or whether or what nuances or interpretations of them exist, but I do wonder, what does any of this have to do with “Ask A Pagan”?

This discussion has gotten entirely off-topic. I get the majority here have little to less than zero regard for religions and beliefs outside their own. And that’s fine for here because this is your forum for your own fellowship, so it’s ultimately for your needs. Still, this topic was allowed to be created but I’ve read through these posts, seeing the direction they’ve taken and it doesn’t seem there was anything worthwhile accomplished and what the OP had in mind lost along the way.

Just an observation.
 
mlamg said:
It’s certainly not the Catholic position and I never said it was. I do wonder, though, where faith comes into play for you, if you believe that the whole bible is completely true and the word of God. Why did Paul talk about having faith in the risen Christ, and why did Jesus stress how important faith is? It’s simple to follow a fact. Facts are indisputable. Where is your faith?

Obviously, if you are following a 100% truth, you need 0% faith.
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You have fallen into a common error of all fundamentalists: either/or thinking.

Catholicism always wins the dialogue because for most things the answer is not either/or but the almost impossible to refute both/and.

Fundamentalists always like to go with either/or.

Very few things in Catholicism are that.

So there is no need to create this false dichotomy between faith and reason.

As Blaise Pascal said: 2 errors–to exclude reason and to exclude all but reason.
 
mlamg said:
Something can’t be based on both faith and truth at the same time. Either something is true, which requires no faith, or something is unknown, which requires faith.
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Or, it requires faith in order to discover the truth. 😉
 
The Pagans you’ve talked to, how do you / they view the Catholic practice of praying to saints for intercession compared with ritual practices some Pagan traditions have which are often referred to as magic?

I hope I’ve made sense - the wording feels awkward, but I’ve not a better way to say it.
 
Skadi said:
The gods are just faces of the “Is All”, a pantheistic entity composed of all life which is transcendent and beyond time.
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then why do these gods have human weaknesses and act more like human beings than divine creatures?
 
vsedriver said:
then why do these gods have human weaknesses and act more like human beings than divine creatures?
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Because your idea of divine and mine are very different. Divinity is not perfection. The gods The only thing that is perfect is the Is All because it contains both all the positive and negative energy in the universe. Perfect balance.
 
Kallisto said:
If I might interject, as I didn’t come here to comment on anyone else’s beliefs or whether or what nuances or interpretations of them exist, but I do wonder, what does any of this have to do with “Ask A Pagan”?

This discussion has gotten entirely off-topic. I get the majority here have little to less than zero regard for religions and beliefs outside their own. And that’s fine for here because this is your forum for your own fellowship, so it’s ultimately for your needs. Still, this topic was allowed to be created but I’ve read through these posts, seeing the direction they’ve taken and it doesn’t seem there was anything worthwhile accomplished and what the OP had in mind lost along the way.

Just an observation.
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I would totally agree. I had intended this to be more of a Q/A type thread than a debate about who is right. In fact thats exactly what I didnt want.
 
mek42 said:
The Pagans you’ve talked to, how do you / they view the Catholic practice of praying to saints for intercession compared with ritual practices some Pagan traditions have which are often referred to as magic?

I hope I’ve made sense - the wording feels awkward, but I’ve not a better way to say it.
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Hmm, If i am reading this right are you talking about praying to the saints being similar to magic?

Magic is a VERY broad term compassing a whole lot of different beliefs, practices, and methods by people from all over the world and not all pagan. Even within paganism different groups have different ideas of magic and forms of use.

I would say that even if a person evokes a deity in magic, most people view it as an action of the person(s) preforming it. Magic is working your will, prayer is to ask a deity for aid (in this case via a saint). Ive heard some people connect magic to prayer and for some its like that, but personally I would say magic is different from prayer. Prayer is a petition, asking the divine for aid, whereas magic is a action, working ones will possibly with the aid of some deity or spirit.

I hope I answered what you are looking for.
 
Skadi said:
Because your idea of divine and mine are very different. Divinity is not perfection. The gods The only thing that is perfect is the Is All because it contains both all the positive and negative energy in the universe. Perfect balance.
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“The only thing that is perfect (but not divine) is the Is All”. OK. :thumbsup:Does it seem reasonable to conclude that you (as a practising pagan) should only worship, and give thanks for your existence, to the “Is All” as opposed to the imperfect “gods” that were created by the “Is ALL” aka God, from the Christian perspective?
 
joe371 said:
“The only thing that is perfect (but not divine) is the Is All”. OK. :thumbsup:Does it seem reasonable to conclude that you (as a practising pagan) should only worship, and give thanks for your existence, to the “Is All” as opposed to the imperfect “gods” that were created by the “Is ALL” aka God, from the Christian perspective?
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Not really, the gods are very powerful beings and fully worthy of respect and worship. Why do they need to be perfect? They like you and me and every other being have their faults.
 
Skadi said:
Not really, the gods are very powerful beings and fully worthy of respect and worship. Why do they need to be perfect? They like you and me and every other being have their faults.
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Hmm…You said: "The only thing that is perfect is the “Is All”. Since the gods are very powerful (although imperfect, created beings) unlike the “Is All” who is all powerful and all perfect, don’t the gods - created beings - owe their existence to the “Is All”?

Why worship imperfect created beings when I can worship the “Is All” Who created time, space and everything in it? Go right to the source - makes sense to me. We, as Christians, believe that the angels are eternal, infinite and very powerful created beings, but we would certainly not worship them as gods.
 
Kallisto said:
If I might interject, as I didn’t come here to comment on anyone else’s beliefs or whether or what nuances or interpretations of them exist, but I do wonder, what does any of this have to do with “Ask A Pagan”?

This discussion has gotten entirely off-topic. I get the majority here have little to less than zero regard for religions and beliefs outside their own. And that’s fine for here because this is your forum for your own fellowship, so it’s ultimately for your needs. Still, this topic was allowed to be created but I’ve read through these posts, seeing the direction they’ve taken and it doesn’t seem there was anything worthwhile accomplished and what the OP had in mind lost along the way.

Just an observation.
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If the OP imagines that his/her answers/beliefs should not be challenged then he/she is on the wrong forum. Otherwise I suppose one could just give a statement of beliefs to anyone interested and call it a day. This forum is exactly for discussion and debate. What is it that you think the OP wanted to accomplish?
 
joe371 said:
Hmm…You said: "The only thing that is perfect is the “Is All”. Since the gods are very powerful (although imperfect, created beings) unlike the “Is All” who is all powerful and all perfect, don’t the gods - created beings - owe their existence to the “Is All”?

Why worship imperfect created beings when I can worship the “Is All” Who created time, space and everything in it? Go right to the source - makes sense to me. We, as Christians, believe that the angels are eternal, infinite and very powerful created beings, but we would certainly not worship them as gods.
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The Is All is a pantheistic entity, not personal one. The Gods are simply the most powerful personal entity’s in the universe.
 
Skadi said:
The Is All is a pantheistic entity, not personal one. The Gods are simply the most powerful personal entity’s in the universe.
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You just said that the “is all” (pantheistic entity) is the only perfect being which makes the is all more powerful. Right? In other words, the “Gods are simply the most powerful personal entity’s in the universe” but the “is all” created the universe, which means the “is all” existed prior to the creation of the universe?
 
Skadi said:
Not really, the gods are very powerful beings and fully worthy of respect and worship. Why do they need to be perfect? They like you and me and every other being have their faults.
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why are they worthy of respect and worship? If they are imperfect like me, why don’t you worship me?
 
Not that I am a Pagan, but I am quite familiar with ancient paganism.

So my question is why do you say the gods are imperfect or immoral beings? Wouldn’t an easier explanation be that the poets either misrepresented the gods because of human weakness, or that the surface meaning of the poems is not the true meaning, but rather an allegorical meaning must be taken in order to teach a metaphysical or moral truth?

This gets to my question though, what philosophic basis do you use to defend your Germanic paganism? Perhaps I missed it since I haven’t read through the whole thread.
 
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